OK, the common wisdom holds that the Stones began their "second golden era" in 1968, with the release of "Jumpin' Jack Flash".

However, the roots of the rennaissance, so to speak, can be found on "Their Satanic Majesties Request". Many years ago, a buddy pointed out to me that if you just listen to the basic band rhythm on "2000 Light Years From Home", you'll find a heavy groove goin' down. IMHO, he was right. Listen to the stereo version, and pan to the "band side". There it is. Keith layin' it down, and Charlie right there with him.

As a matter of fact, I think Keith recycled the basic riff six years later, in "Dancing With Mr. D."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 01:55 by bassplayer617.

Both Citadel and 2000 Light Years From Home could easily work without the mellotron or flowery arrangements. But I do think the arrangements suit the lyrics and vice versa.

Keith's guitar work on the album is superb imo!

...2000 LYFH could not work at all without Brian's mellotron.

The Mellotron adds the cozmic vibe; the outro etc rides on it. But the meat &potatoes of the tune could be done as what is basically a bluesy groove with Bass, guitar and drums.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

i agree and have thought the same thing about 2000 light years from home. The basic groove was there for what there songs sounded like a few years later.


Ive also thougth the same thing, maybe to a lesser degree about Shes a rainbow. That song is very rhythmic with a few breaks in there.

I listened to TSMR through out the whole album some days ago and
also found some really great grooves on that disc.

Citadel is quite a raunchy song with great guitars.
Personally I like The Lantern quite much not for it's grooves
but it grooves on me.

2000 Man is a song that could be done anytime on stage!

Been Stoned since 1964 and still am!

Child of The Moon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 15:19 by Stones Blah.

I've always been intrigued by what happened between TSMR and BB.
Did they share a common moment of clarity and think "...hang on a minute, this hippy-dippy bollocks isn't for us, let's get back to being a "roots" band"

They were free of the bullshit surrounding the busts(well, apart from Brian!)... Keith took up the open tunings and slide... They kind of had a career to save... all around music was moving in to a new phase of heavyness... Jimmy Miller came on board... etc etc.

The Surrey Rehearsals shows there's not THAT much of a difference between the raw tracks on satanic and the earliest attempts at new material in 1968.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-01 16:36 by His Majesty.

Exactly. I agree that there is really not that much diffrence between Banquet and Satanic. It's the window dressing, (look at the cover and clothes alone) that is radicALly different. Plus on Satanic Brian was very invloved still. The otherwordly flourishes on Satanic seem to come from Brian; the other Stones didn't know how to play thta kind of stuff. "Satanic" is an album that IMO gets better and better as the years go on. Itis aging remarkably well; and "The Latern" is a good tune.
Jimmy Miller must have been a humongous influence. Especially since they obviously listened to him a good bit early on. He had the tricks; they didn't.
On Banquet form track 1 it is vinatge Miller. This is what I love LOVE about Miller - his drums and percussion, but even more his use of Grand Piano. And the way he made tracks talk and sound huge without adding 50 instr=uments.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

What I like about TSMR is they're open to a lot of miscellaneous influences, for their writing and producing, a little of which actually having anything to do with the Beatles AFAICT.

I bought the remastered CD a couple of months ago, and I realize I loved this album even more than I thought from fond memories of youth!

I have been listening to the Satanix box bootleg constantly for the last couple of days, and I must say I am really surprised at how good the music is. The guitars are raunchy, the songs are really good, and Brian is excellent on the Mellotron. If they stuck with the initial takes, Satanic would have been so much better!

I am also surprised about how the album turns out to be mostly a collaboration between Keith, Brian and Nicky Hopkins. Keith clearly has the lead, and most songs seems to be his, but both Nicky and Brian truly excel in creating these excellent soundscapes and athmosphere. Brian's work on the mellotron is stellar in my opinion.

Mathijs

Mathijs, I would have thought perhaps Jagger's input here had a lot to do with the lyrics. Just an impression, though. They sound pretty "well read"...

The thing that happened between Satanics and Banquet was tape releases of Dylan's Basement Tapes.

Jagger heard these in Brasil. They were hugely influential on Stones (Jig Puzzle and Salt of Earth for example) and on many other artists. I have an article about this somewhere and it's very convincing. Influence on Beatles too. Loads of songs from those tapes being released as singles by various artists - The Mighty Quinn, Wheels on Fire for example.

The tapes were widely available in musical circles From end of '67?) though not released officially until 1975.

It was stuff that Dylan did when in 'recluse' with the Band.

I agree Dylan in London with Hendrix during that time span sure influenced many artists.

When did the stones first have access to the heavy bass sound that, as I've read, first came out with the Beatles' "Paperback Writer"? I can't recall what the innovation was, whether it was a 4-track or wider tape or what... but I don't see how they weren't playing heavy grooves all along, and one just can't hear them that way.

>> Jagger heard these in Brasil. <<

sorry to sidetrack, but i'm curious: when was he in Brazil prior to the trip
with Keith, Anita & Marianne in december 68/january 69?

Four Stone Walls Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing that happened between Satanics and
> Banquet was tape releases of Dylan's Basement
> Tapes.
>
> Jagger heard these in Brasil. They were hugely
> influential on Stones (Jig Puzzle and Salt of
> Earth for example) and on many other artists. I
> have an article about this somewhere and it's very
> convincing. Influence on Beatles too. Loads of
> songs from those tapes being released as singles
> by various artists - The Mighty Quinn, Wheels on
> Fire for example.
>
> The tapes were widely available in musical circles
> From end of '67?) though not released officially
> until 1975.
>
> It was stuff that Dylan did when in 'recluse' with
> the Band.

Yup another influence there for sure...

Brazil came later on at the end of 1968 though, assuming you mean Mick and Keith's trip there with their fine ladies?

Great minds question alike!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-02 01:21 by His Majesty.

I can't remember the date of Jagger's visit to Brasil (with Marianne at least) - it was in the article, which was October or November 2004, (coinciding with Dylan UK dates) issue of the Face, (I think!) - but would need to check the title for sure.

And back to the original topic - I think the big development in their sound was from Buttons to Satanics. There were signs there on buttons (Please Go Home, Miss Amanda Jones) but that album and Aftermath (far too clean and'Pop' for my tastes) were mainly, well, pop-based. Loosening up through buttons - and letting go completely on Satanics!

The main influence here was Anita Pallenburg, I think. She involved them (maybe not Bill and Charlie!) in the occult - and things becamae a lot grittier and earthier there-after.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-02 01:57 by Four Stone Walls.

If these last thread from the alst few days have had any kind of good impact is that more people have delved into the Satanic -Banquet era. I just downmloaded the 8 Satanis sessions. Needed it back after these discussions and will also immerse myself.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Those box sets are essential listening!!! How I wish they had the means to release a similar set for Beggars!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-02 02:16 by His Majesty.

>> I can't remember the date of Jagger's visit to Brasil (with Marianne at least)
... would need to check the title for sure. <<

i'll be grateful if/when you have a chance -
the 68/69 Brazil trip has kind of gotten unglued from its proper place in the historical record -
writers keep repeating the fable that YCAGWYW was written there, for example -
so it would be enlightening to know if Mick was there earlier than that.

I'll say "All Sold Out" - listen closely to Keith's riffs & Charlie - the two of 'em are totally locked in.

My question is when did the downward spiral take effect?

I'd say during and after Tattoo You, the Stones were clearly out of fresh ideas.
Undercover was average at best, while Dirty Work was downright bad for the most part.
After the falling out between Mick and Keith was over, we were given Steel Wheels? Were they serious?
The rest of their releases are filler all the way. Thankfully they put on great live shows,
otherwise they would be considered a joke (and to many, they are).
I still love 'em, the best concerts always!

Hairball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My question is when did the downward spiral take
> effect?
>
> I'd say during and after Tattoo You, the Stones
> were clearly out of fresh ideas.

It's definitely clear that the Stones as musically relevant artists ended in 1982. With the benefit of hindsight, some might suggest that they really should have called it a day after that European tour - what an ending to a career!

However, without the ability to see into the future, there really wasn't a reason to hang things up then... by all accounts, the Stones were enjoying a second(third?fourth?) wind, and the new album and tour would obviously be great. Or so it was thought. And then came Undercover, and the world had moved on to New Wave, and other things.

The thing is it is obvious that the "downward spiral"really does not exist. At least not in thw writing dept. The drop in album quality IMO can be blamed on a) producers; or lack of strong producers with balls, and b) on solo albums.
Jagger, Keith and Ronnie too have all released very strong solo material. Jagger and Keith have shown that they have excellent songs and ideas in them. Keith not only wrote great tunes for his two but his production was off the chain!
By now we all have heard the Steel Wheel Sessions, Voodoo Brew/Stew, Stripped, "Under the Radar" etc. They have been releasing the wrong songs. It's that simple. The wrong mixes. Too safe, too clean, too clinical, too topical.
SW could have ended up with an edge and "Precious Love" instead of e.g "Blinded by Love". Had there been an editor who isn't scared of Jagger and Keith, someone with some real vision, then Voodoo would have been maybe 4-6 tunes shorter and we'd have included Zip Mouth Angel, The Storm, Jump on Top of me instead of Rainbows, Jugular, Sweethearts, Sparks, Rocking.
And who knows - we maybe would be looking at 7/8 albums released.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Well Brian moaned about getting back to the roots, Mick tied to be hip and later blamed Satanic on Brian (who really saved it form disaster), and many artists went back to the roots (Dylan, CCR, Hendrix and many more) so it is really a question of following trends and leading new trends. They didnt invent that root based rock, it was popular by 1968 despite Love's huge hit record.

Why is it that some Brain fans(I am one myself, see my user name!?) take shots at Mick or Keith whenever we talk about the stones past!? Zzzzzzzz!!!!

When has Mick ever "blamed Brian" for Satanic Majesties? What exactly is there to take blame for?

tommycharles wrote:

It's definitely clear that the Stones as musically relevant artists ended in 1982.


Honestly, even though I have loved a lot of their music since EOMS, I think they stopped being musically or socially relevant as a recording band when they released Angie. From then on in, they have been following trends start by others. Jagger still tries to push the boundries with his lyrics though.