Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> No, Brian made TWO good albums: the first one, and
> Aftermath. all other albums have some good songs,
> but also much filler.

Out of Our Heads, NOW!, Between the Buttons, and Beggars Banquet are also great albums.


> Brian was a mediocre guitarist, unable to play
> anything more than straight Chuck Berry style
> rythm guitar.

Little Red Rooster, No Expectations, I Can't Be Satisfied, What a Shame, The Last Time, and Get Off Of My Cloud are examples of Chuck Berry style rhythm guitar? Hello, is anybody home?!


>Musically he added nice parts on
> great, great songs written by other people (just
> as taylor did). But groundbreaking? not in my
> book.

So, the sitar on Paint It Black, the marimba on UMT, the slide solo on I Wanna Be Your Man, and the lead riff on The Last Time weren't groundbreaking? Mathjis, your head needs to be examined!


>And I don't want to say that you have to be
> a technical wizzard to be groundbreaking. Keith is
> a mediocre guitarist as well, but he wrote
> groundbreaking songs, and he invented an entire
> guitar style.

Brian also invented an entire guitar style by introducing the slide guitar to rock n' roll.


> Brian's recroder
> part on Ruby Tuesday is nice, but certainly
> executed slightly amateuristic. And, Brian could
> have farted his part, the beauty of Ruby Tuesday
> is the melody, written by keith Richards.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Brian was as instrumental as Keith in making that song special. Without Brian, that song would have been nothing special. You want to lay all the credit with your hero Keith, but he needed the musical expertise and creative input of guys like Brian and MT. You paint a very black and white picture. Lastly, where do you get off saying Brian was a mediocre musician? The guy made some truly great contributions to Stones records and helped make the band a force to reckoned with. When it comes to Brian, I think you are very ignorant and spiteful.

Thanks neptune you really cheer me up

__________________________

Mick. He has kept the band together since the beginning of Keith's heroin addition. As a writer, Jagger is one of the greats with the ability to write fitting lyrics for diverse genres.

neptune Wrote:
> Out of Our Heads, NOW!, Between the Buttons, and
> Beggars Banquet are also great albums.

Brian is hardly on Beggars, and both "Now" and Buttons are nice albums, but have their weak points. They are good albums, but not classics.

> Little Red Rooster, No Expectations, I Can't Be
> Satisfied, What a Shame, The Last Time, and Get
> Off Of My Cloud are examples of Chuck Berry style
> rhythm guitar? Hello, is anybody home?!

No, but you don't need great skills to play them, it's all quite simple music. Little Red Rooster is a good song, but what sets this song apart from the rest is that the Stones dared to choose this song as a single, and I guess Brian was instrumental in that descision. The Last Time is a Staple Singers ripp-off, including the main riff, Get Off Of My Cloud is a great song because of the lyrics and the sneer in Jagger's voice combined with the long haired dandy Jones. It's the rebel image Jones injected in the Stones, not his talents as guitarist.

That's what I constantly try to say: musically Brian never was a talented writer as Keith, or a prodigy like Taylor, but Brian was ahead of his time when it comes to being a dandy, a rock and roll star, and sometimes even a rebel.

>
> So, the sitar on Paint It Black, the marimba on
> UMT, the slide solo on I Wanna Be Your Man, and
> the lead riff on The Last Time weren't
> groundbreaking? Mathjis, your head needs to be
> examined!

No, they were not groundbreaking. The songs itself were groundbreaking. The melody, the drive, the lyrics, the vengeance and energy of these songs is what makes it true Rolling Stones songs, not the fact that Brian plays the main melody of on a marimba. That's a nice find, nothing more. Also, musically speaking, with Paint it Black, the key ingredient is the pounding drums and the polka style bassline, THAT is what drives the song. The sitar is again a nice find, but nothing more.


> Brian also invented an entire guitar style by
> introducing the slide guitar to rock n' roll.

He never did. If anyone deserves that credit it would be people like John Mayall and Big Jim sullivan, whom already played slide in the late 50's. The fact that Bill Wyman states that Brian was the first slide player HE ever saw says more about Wyman than about Jones.

> I hate to burst your bubble, but Brian was as
> instrumental as Keith in making that song special.
> Without Brian, that song would have been nothing
> special. You want to lay all the credit with your
> hero Keith, but he needed the musical expertise
> and creative input of guys like Brian and MT.

Sorry, I don't belive this. Wyman, Watts, Glyn Johns and Jagger have stated that it was Keith's song. Keith also stated where he got the title and lyrics from. I don't belive Brian was instrumental in helping this song write. It's a nice idea to have a recorder play the main melody line, but that's it. The true genius is the melody and the sing-along chorus.

> Lastly,
> where do you get off saying Brian was a mediocre
> musician? The guy made some truly great
> contributions to Stones records and helped make
> the band a force to reckoned with. When it comes
> to Brian, I think you are very ignorant and
> spiteful.

I agrea that he made some really great contributions to the band. But of all the instruments he played, he only was really good at the harmonica. You see this more often. Any good guitarist will be able to pick up a bass, mandolin, banjo, ukelele or whatever, and within a couple of days practise you will able to get some tunes out of it, some maybe even good enough to record something with it. If you play piano, it's not really hard to play some melodies on a marimaba, a Wurlitzer, a Mellotron and what more. But you most likely will never become rea;ly good at it. Paul Mccartney plays something like 25 instruments on his latest album. He does a great job, but he's not a real good player on any instrument except for bass, guitar and piano.

I have the same opinion about Mick Taylor. He's a great guitarist, one of my favourite players ever, but he was not instrumental in -for example- the creation of Exile. He happened to be around at Nellcote, but it good have been any good big name guitarist, and Exile still would have been Exile.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-14 23:42 by Mathijs.

I love Brian's contributions to the music, the image and concept of the stones, but there is a lot of truth to what Mathijs says regarding the execution of his parts.

It's interesting that one of his best contributions, the recorder on Ruby Tuesday, happens to be one of his most shakey released performances. Listen to the pre vocal version and you'll hear what I mean.

His genius to me was the ability to hear and create wonderful simnplistic melodies/melodic parts which totally suited and added to the the feel and sound of the song.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-14 22:34 by His Majesty.

i wouldn't be too dismissive of brian's contributions..

we know the how the stones like to rewrite history...

my aftermath red label mono US original lp is spinning right now... so i got to ask:

does brian play vibes or what have you on under my thumb? what about the slide guitar on dontcha bother me??? does he also play the harmonica on that song?

i can never tell what brian does frankly..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-14 22:39 by stoned_in_dc.

It's a marimba and yes it's Brian. You can hear him play vibes rather well on Yesterdays Papers from Between the Buttons.

It's also him playing the slide on Dontcha Bother Me(very easy part to play btw), but I'm not so sure about the harmonica.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's also him playing the slide on Dontcha Bother
> Me(very easy part to play btw), but I'm not so
> sure about the harmonica.

I have always thought it's Jagger playing the harmonica, Brian would sound tecnically more advanced.

Mathijs

i think its mick too

I think Brian is the most underrated, followed by Bill and Ronnie.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Literally 965 kilometers from being "Born in an Arctic zone".

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Keith is a mediocre guitarist as well



No. That's wrong. Maybe you are not impressed with his technique (although I don't agree). However, if one makes great music with his instrument, he cannot be classified as mediocre. See, the POINT of playing the instrument is to make the MUSIC.

Mick

Its ridiculous to call any gutarist mediocre on technical ability. Its the rythmn, soul and feeling created by that guitar that creates a unique player, not one who can play every damn note on the fret board!!!

It's Brian Jones. He were the real genius at the beginning...and the former of the band and their style...

2 1 2 0

ablett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its ridiculous to call any gutarist mediocre on
> technical ability. Its the rythmn, soul and
> feeling created by that guitar that creates a
> unique player, not one who can play every damn
> note on the fret board!!!


Mmmmm, that argument only goes soooo far. You can't discount skill out COMLETELY next to subjective 'feeling' ALL the time...

I'm not saying that. Obviously you must know your way around a guitar beforehand. I'm just stating that there's many great gutarists who are not technical masters and there are guitar geniuses technically who aint great musicians......

Ok, I vote for Mick and I think it's really a no-brainer BUT I respect other's opinions. I just know in my heart of hearts that if there were no Mick Jager, there'd be no STONES! Simple; he is the glue as someone has already said, as a song-writer, no one compares( also already stated), and as a personality and charismatic performer, he IS the DRAW! He is what people want to SEE! He is probably over-looked the most as a writer of fabulous lyrics, the edgy Stones lyrics that set them apart from all other bands. Examples; SFTD, (BRILLIANT LYRICS!), Gimme Shelter, YCAGWYW, Rain Fall Down is a recent example of lyrics setting a mood, a tone, and look at some of the songs on Exile like Lovin Cup, Sweet Black Angel( Very political for it's time)...the examples are endless. Mathijs, I happen to agree with most of what you say about Brian, but you will never win this battle and the reason is that BRIAN DIED! He has been elevated to SAINTHOOD, you cannot vilify a SAINT! Well, for me he was basicly worthless after 1967, and as I said, I agree with you BUT we cannot win! DEAD MEN can't defend themselves, nor do we know what might have become of him had he lived 20 years longer, what his legacy might have been. I would venture a guess and say he would never have achieved much of value after he left the Stones but it's only conjecture. His persona of glamorous rock star far exceeded his abilities. It's the same way we react to Blonde actresses! Their HAIR COLOR dictates how we react to them! Brian's mop of blonde hair was like a spotlight shining in our eyes! It blinded us to what was really underneath.( not Us, But it did blind MANY).

Debra, what a lot of crap!

MAJESTY, and what part of my post are you referring!!! Certainly you can muster more information! Or NOT?

I'll pass.

>> Gimme Shelter <<

Keith wrote Gimmie Shelter, lyrics included. just a bit of finetuning for accuracy's sake -
anyone who sees their favourite Stone as the Most Everything Included Underrated is welcome to
as far as i'm concerned! have some popcorn :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 20:03 by with sssoul.

That's what I thought.