why he replaced original vintage bridges on his telecasters with modern ones? has the type of the bridge any effect on sound?

Modern ones are easier to intonate, are less prone to feedback and yield a somewhat tighter sound. Many people also find them easier to play as the sides are not present.

Mathijs

>>has the type of the bridge any effect on sound?<<

sure does.
the old style 3 barrel ashtray sounds twangier, higher or more bright & ringing.
it is usually made out of stainless steel with chrome or nickel plateing and is quite light weight.
The 3 barrel saddles build up the double amount of pressure onto the body.
Intonation was quite akward until compensated saddles were introduced (hmm, dunno when that was, btw)

The newer replacement bridges are usually made out of brass, in natural finish or chrome plated.
they weigh about a 1/4 pound and due to material and pressure, they sound warmer.

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The 3 barrel saddles build up the double amount of
> pressure onto the body.

This is not completely true: the pressure of the six strings pulling on the bridge is equal for both types.

> The newer replacement bridges are usually made out
> of brass, in natural finish or chrome plated.
> they weigh about a 1/4 pound and due to material
> and pressure, they sound warmer.

It depends what brand you buy, but generally brass is hard to find, and is very hard to plate. Most are just plain steel, plated with chrome or nickel. There's a good trick to check: if your bridge is not magnetized it is a cheap plated bridge, if it is magnetized it is a good one. Together with the pickup a magnetized bridge yields a larger magnetic field, and a "more true" (whatever that is) Telecaster sound.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> open-g Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The 3 barrel saddles build up the double amount
> of
> > pressure onto the body.
>
> This is not completely true: the pressure of the
> six strings pulling on the bridge is equal for
> both types.

The pressure of all strings of course stays the same - but...

Lets assume a string produces a pressure of 10 pound on a saddle.
the pressure makes contact with the bridge plate through 2 height adjustment screws, in both cases - now put on a second string, you'll have twenty pounds resting on those two little screws.
thats where you get the bite.

which truck, carrying the same load, would put a dent in the road surface first?
a) 6 wheels
b) 12 wheels

> > The newer replacement bridges are usually made
> out
> > of brass, in natural finish or chrome plated.
> > they weigh about a 1/4 pound and due to
> material
> > and pressure, they sound warmer.
>
> It depends what brand you buy, but generally brass
> is hard to find, and is very hard to plate. Most
> are just plain steel, plated with chrome or
> nickel. There's a good trick to check: if your
> bridge is not magnetized it is a cheap plated
> bridge, if it is magnetized it is a good one.
> Together with the pickup a magnetized bridge
> yields a larger magnetic field, and a "more true"
> (whatever that is) Telecaster sound.
>
> Mathijs

Schaller, Gotho to name a few - all make brass bridges.
the ones made out of steel are sometimes called economy bridge and are a lot cheaper than brass.
different story in the old days maybe, but easy to find today.
I agree on the the magnetic field points.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-27 22:24 by open-g.

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lets assume a string produces a pressure of 10
> pound on a saddle.
> the pressure makes contact with the bridge plate
> through 2 height adjustment screws, in both cases
> - now put on a second string, you'll have twenty
> pounds resting on those two little screws.
> thats where you get the bite.

Yes, I understand that, but I do not believe that makes any difference in sound. The fact that an old fashioned Tele bridge has a distincint sound is mainly due to the fact that it has a cup-like shape, and that it is made of a magnetised steel. This pressure story sounds a bit out dated to be honest.

>
> Schaller, Gotho to name a few - all make brass
> bridges.
> the ones made out of steel are sometimes called
> economy bridge and are a lot cheaper than brass.
> different story in the old days maybe, but easy to
> find today.

Well, please the direct me to a place where brass Schaller Tele bridges can be bought -I have been looking for one for the last 10 years! Schaller doesn't exist anymore, it's bought by Duesenberg, whom also own the Kluson name. Gotoh doesn't have a solid brass bridge, and frankly everything that is made by Gotoh is second grade quality in my humble opinion.

Mathijs

[www.callahamguitars.com]

Callaham... best Tele parts bar none.

At Rockinger they have brass Tele bridges by Gotoh and some Schaller, but not Telestyle.
I'm not even sure if they ever made Telebridges - hmm, my bad, sorry.
Funny enough, they don't mention "brass" in the english section but in the german.
anyway have look around here
[www.rockinger.com]

some more brass bridges at allparts /uk
[www.allparts.uk.com]

the "pressure story" makes perfect sense to me and I can't see how one can outdate physics.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-28 06:16 by open-g.

Thanks, jabhead.
thats an interesting read about the Callham bridge
[www.callahamguitars.com]

I'm always suspicious of anything that claims to be "better" than the original.
If you want the original sound...how's it better ?
Nothing wrong with Gotoh bits and pieces though. They're good enough for a whole plethora of high end and boutique builders to use.

I totally agree about the sonic chracteristics of the tele bridges.
The thick brass bridge gives a more "middly" and tighter sound...probably due to a combination of the mechanical and non-magnetic properties. The stamped ferrous vintage bridge has all the classic country twang and wide range bounce. Even the saddle material is clearly audible on a vintage bridge...with most agreeing that the original brass saddles sound better than the later plain or threaded steel production.
It's interesting that Seymour Duncan often cuts the Tele neck pocket deeper in order to lower the pickup in the magnetic field of the vintage bridge.
It would also surprise a lot of folks to hear the same Tele bridge pickup with and without the plated ferrous "grounding" plate. It makes a huge difference to the sound !
[Another potential issue with the stamped vintage bridge is feedback when used in high volume applications. It's resonant properties and the fact that it's design won't allow it to sit truly flat to the body are the cause. Some folks put a blob of wax or mastic under it to counter the problem.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-28 13:52 by Spud.

open-g Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At Rockinger they have brass Tele bridges by Gotoh
> and some Schaller, but not Telestyle.
> I'm not even sure if they ever made Telebridges -
> hmm, my bad, sorry.
> Funny enough, they don't mention "brass" in the
> english section but in the german.
> anyway have look around here
> [www.rockinger.com]
> stPage_2.htm%3Fcat%3DWG081
>
> some more brass bridges at allparts /uk
> [www.allparts.uk.com]
> th=91002_91037_91045
>
> the "pressure story" makes perfect sense to me and
> I can't see how one can outdate physics.

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately the brass bridge like on keiths Tele is not there. I haven't been able to find it for the last ten years. By the way, Fender Japan offers a Tele that resembles Keith's micabre, and that one has a brass bridge. Don't know where these are produced.

What I meant with outdated is that the story of the double pressure on the vintage barrel style saddles evolved when Fender introduced the 6-saddle bridge on its Tele's somewhere in '73. These bridges sound different, and in many peoples opinion not as good as the original. Later on it turned out that it was mainly due to the material used that the bridge didn't sound as good as the original, not the pressure. The general opinion now is mainly that the material of bridge and saddles is the main factor of the sound, and hardly the pressure of the strings pushing on the saddles. For the true vintage country jangle the best probably is the old cold-welled magnetic cup with 3 brass saddles. For a somewhat tighter and aggressive sound the Schaller/Fender modern bridge is probably best. In my personal opinion, the one that Fender offers as a replacement is the best quality, these are the bridges that keith uses.

Gotoh to me is good stuff, but generic. The quality doesn't hold up against genuine American Grovers, or genuine Schaller bridges or stuff like that.

Mathijs

I love Schaller stuff. It just has that vibe that all good engineering gives off.
The second you pick it up it says "..this works, this'll do the job."
[ Pretty much true of the Fender Telecaster too ;^) ]

One could get rid of the chrome somehow



The chrome Gotoh bridge next to Keith's. note the slightly different angle of the pic, but does come close.

they look very similar

and that's a beautiful close-up of Micawber too, Open-G!
if you have a version without the "inset" handy, i'd looooooove that -
thank you kindly and have some more popcorn :E

Info on Three saddle tele bridges

[www.thegearpage.net]

the gear page is an enormous source of info on guitar related topics

Not an easy find, but this guy makes the unplated brass bridges some of you are looking for:

www.armadilloguitar.com

---
www.sugar-mountain.net
www.myspace.com/sugarmountainmusic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-18 13:46 by jruano.

This is the same as keith's bridge.

It's made by schecter

Interesting thread. The funny thing is that last year I changed the old Schecter bridge to the original bridge. It`s a `71 Tele which I bought in 1983. The seller had changed the hardware (Schaller mechanics and Schecter hardware and Bill Lawrence pu`s) but luckily gave me all original stuff.
So all the years I played the Schecter bridge. Never thought of changing it cause everybody said that the cheap original Fender bridge is crap anyway. And the guitar sounded fantastic anyway. So after playing it for 30 years a guitar builder told me to rebuild all the original stuff cause otherwise it would be a shame not to do it if I still have all the original hardware.
So he did and what can I say: It`s all true what open-g statet: more highs, overtones. I got the impression the guitar is freed, it`s breathing now. The Schecter is how can I say little muddy, dryer, ok warmer, but well hard to explain in foreign language.
So all in all I would say if a player compare these two bridges on the same instrument most would prefer the original one... No?

Tom









Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-02-18 00:57 by electricmud.

Open-g-
Have someone mediablast it. A machine shop or auto body shoo could help.

Go Dawgs!

I doubt anybody could tell the difference in sound by the pounds per square inch introduced on the bridge body by 6 bridge saddles vs 3- double string saddles. But no doubt the individual 6 saddles make it possible to adjust the intonation more exactly and brass contacting the strings can affect the tone.

The only problem with the original bridge for me is the raised sides make it strange to play, I prefer a smooth transition down there.

Thanks for the tip on the brass bridge keithfaithfull. peace

I find the original, vintage styled bridges to have a more open, wider sound, with more treble on the top. It's a bit like the spring of a Strat tremelo block adds to the sound being a bit more open compared to a more direct, more compressed sound of a hard tail. The Schaller, or modern, bridges I find to be more compressed, somewhat more midrange and having a tighther sound. It really depends on the guitar which bridge I would prefer. Maple necks I prefer the modern bridge, rosewood necks the vintage bridge.

Mathijs

There is a german guitar builder who offers Micawber-copies. Strangely enough, they don´t have the "original" Keith-style bridge. I had my guitar "upgraded" with a brass bridge that has artificially been made look older (no, I am not a native speaker :-)) . I had to call / mail to him, he is friendly and deliveres at decent speed. The bridge plays and sounds nice, just a bit closer to the truth. You can find him here:
www.realguitars.de

On the other hand: all that is just and only about the looks. Mr Richards sounds like he does on every guitar, and most everybody else does not.

Cheers, Fillmore

The biggest to Keith's sound on a tele apart from correct/close pickups isnt the bridge but having a swamp ash body tele with the broadcaster circuit or dark circuit. Tune it to open g and you are there. The change is amazing and when I strummed it the first time with this wiring I could hear that distinctive tele keith tone that I have never been able to get.

Go Dawgs!

I prefer the old style bridge even though I am a fan of Keith... Some of this 5 string stuff is tail chasing. My favorite Stone recordings are from the eras where Keith used a Gibson for open G. Right now I use a 345 for G tunings, the shorter scale makes the fingerings a little easier as well... There is good accurate information in this thread, I come across parts all the time I will try to find a brass bridge like KR and give it to Mathijs he deserves some love for all the teasing we give him...

Quote
nankerphlege
The biggest to Keith's sound on a tele apart from correct/close pickups isnt the bridge but having a swamp ash body tele with the broadcaster circuit or dark circuit. Tune it to open g and you are there. The change is amazing and when I strummed it the first time with this wiring I could hear that distinctive tele keith tone that I have never been able to get.

Pierre told me in Suresnes that Keith is not using that wiring but modern wiring.

Even on ole micawber? I could see some of the new teles and others like the darryl jones guitar tele but the sound it produces to me is amazingly identical to micawber and malcom. Unless Keith recently changed it.

Btw did he mention the value of the pentometers in keef's tele?

Go Dawgs!

My question was specifically about Micawber - actually he seemed surprised by the question and said no one uses that. I didnt have much time to go into details or ask about pots... They were just on a break near the back entrance after setting up the session before the band arrived.

Quote
nankerphlege
Even on ole micawber? I could see some of the new teles and others like the darryl jones guitar tele but the sound it produces to me is amazingly identical to micawber and malcom. Unless Keith recently changed it.

Btw did he mention the value of the pentometers in keef's tele?

The wiring on all Keith's Tele is plain simple modern wiring with 250K pots. Switch is wired standard as well, not reversed in any way.

Mathijs

Anyone in need for a brass bridge?
you can get them here:
[www.thomann.de]
Made in Berlin, btw.

Mathijs, did you ever use that bridge you got from me?