....



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-11 23:42 by Rockman.

florinda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith has got a few terrible ones on, for example,
> Gimme shelter during the 1969 tour.


Funny you should say that because I think it was Keith being ever so slightly out of tune most of time during that tour that gave the songs, including "Gimme Shelter"a real edge and hint of danger that they have since lacked.

Having said that it is hard for me to say what my least favorite solo would be as there are too many to choose from!

ChrisM, I don't think one can be slightly out of tune. one is either in tune or out of tune. As for the danger.. I think I understand what you mean but I don't agree with you. There have been many great versions of the song during 72 and 73...Anyway, I'm not a Keith Richards' fan when it comes to playing out of tune, which happens quite often when he plays lead.

WIll gather meself together for a longer answer to Chelseas
thinkworthy posting; but till then I just wanna
say I never discuss today's "Skynyrd".

Lynyrd Skynyrd is pre-1977 for me, nuthin else.

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The worst of all time? Who knows. Who cares?
> Perhaps the worst of the Stones' recorded output
> is found on that holy lament, You Can't Always Get
> What You Want on Love You Live. It begins with an
> interesting reading from Jagger...the band plays
> it restrained ...then Ron Wood's guitar solo...and
> the entire spectacle takes on a pathetic hue. The
> carcass of the song slams to the ground...Ronnie
> drags it though the ground, cascading note after
> cascading note...and the longer the solo goes the
> worst it gets. It exposes him as completely
> uncreative as a soloist. Jagger puts a stake
> though the song's heart heart with a chorus
> sing-along. Jesus. Christ. Almighty. Thank God
> punk kicked the Stones in the ass and made them
> dangerous again. This was a nadir.
until 1989 lol

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The worst of all time? Who knows. Who cares?
> Perhaps the worst of the Stones' recorded output
> is found on that holy lament, You Can't Always Get
> What You Want on Love You Live. It begins with an
> interesting reading from Jagger...the band plays
> it restrained ...then Ron Wood's guitar solo...and
> the entire spectacle takes on a pathetic hue. The
> carcass of the song slams to the ground...Ronnie
> drags it though the ground, cascading note after
> cascading note...and the longer the solo goes the
> worst it gets. It exposes him as completely
> uncreative as a soloist. Jagger puts a stake
> though the song's heart heart with a chorus
> sing-along. Jesus. Christ. Almighty. Thank God
> punk kicked the Stones in the ass and made them
> dangerous again. This was a nadir.


Okay, this is right for the edited version of "Love you Live". In my opinion the entire solo is preserved on the boot "It's a Gas in Paris". And there we have one of the greatest versions of YCAGWYW. I prefer the this solo of Ron Wood to the one's of Mick Taylor, and I'm really a Mick Taylor fan. Insofar you can see the trash produced by untalented and completely uncreative producers, unfortunately ...

Florinda corrects:

>one is either in tune or out of tune.<

If one plays C# where C is expected, he/she plays out of tune... But to play D would be then WAY out of tune!
Therefore, why can't one say "SLIGHTLY" out of tune? (I am not a musician)

Well with a guitar you can play many notes in between C and C#. Just by bending the string slightly and/or putting too much pressure on a string. If done properly, it sounds ok, but if you screw up you sound out of tune very quickly.

I understand that Koen. Am just using a "square" figure example.

Just want to know why can't someone say this musician plays >slightly< out of tune, or his guitar is slighlty out of tune... Florinda says you're either in tune or out of tune!

I guess it is a matter of tolerance for out of tune sounds. One thing is to bend a string to reach a sound you want. Another thing is to bend strings most of the time because you don't know better. In any case, Keith has said that he tried to be a wonderful guitarist and he failed. I admire that frankness. I just think he should stick to playing his trademarks chords, he is great at that. The problem here is he could only do that when Taylor was supplying the leads. Ronnie... was great with the faces, when he rehearsed and rehearsed his solo parts, which were rather short, to a great effect. He had a style of his own and I loved it. Those times are gone. Sniff!

The one I did last night...

florinda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChrisM, I don't think one can be slightly out of
> tune. one is either in tune or out of tune. As for
> the danger.. I think I understand what you mean
> but I don't agree with you. There have been many
> great versions of the song during 72 and
> 73...Anyway, I'm not a Keith Richards' fan when it
> comes to playing out of tune, which happens quite
> often when he plays lead.

I take your point florinda but there are subtle shades of grey when it comes to tuning. You can be a bit flat or sharp and alot of people wouldn't notice. For instance on "All Down the Line" Keith is almost 1/4 step flat, which sounds great to my ears becasue it adds unresolved tension to the song. However if he had been anymore flat, say 1/2 step, then it would have sounded very dissonant indeed. This aspect of Keith's playing was one of the elements of his style that I liked during the '69, tour, and indeed others. Sometines though he's REALLY out of tune. Savvy?

Hello ChrisM,

Do you mean "all down" on exile? If so, you are talking about his chords, right? It sounds great to me and, no, I don't perceive out of tune. Do you mean his guitar is tuned 1/4 step flat or..? Please explain. I'm really interested.
As regards the 69 tour, which songs? chords? leads? please give me an example with a specific song.

I was indeed referring to the Exile version and Keith's rhythm guitar. His guitar on that track is about 1/4 step flat comapred to the other instruments. It's nothing you would really notice on a conscious level as it is fairly subtle but subconsciously one's mind wants Keith's guitar to be in tune with the others, hence the "tension' if you take my meaning.

As to the '69 tour you can pretty much take your pick but "Gimme Shelter" is the first song that springs to mind because you mentioned it, both chords and leads, but the guitar would be out of tune no matter what he was playing. The Dan Armstrong especially had problems along these lines it seems. (I believe that is the gutiar he use for "Gimmme Shelter" back then.)

I take your point. The question is. Does he do that on purpose?

ChrisM seems to imply the Dan Armstrong model guitar is the culprit here (problem staying in tune during that particular tour). Something KR couldn't fight really.

Also, I know his frequent use of the CAPO perhaps introduces yet further tuning problems... Such as if one guitar is correctly tuned by the musician or his tech, but once capoed way up the neck (for instance on Midnight Rambler) it might then be out of tune... Meaning the neck is "wrong" (correct English word eludes me) Or if anyone changes the position of the capo, once the guitar has been tuned correctly at a specific position. But I don't know if KR did that back then, or if he instead used lots of instruments on stage already rigged with the various capo positions he needs.

Listen to the lead in Can't Get Enough Of You Love by Bad Company. Ugh! Also Stealin' by Uriah Heap. REALLY BAD!

GShelter, Can't get enough is a bad solo? How extraordinary!

florinda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GShelter, Can't get enough is a bad solo? How
> extraordinary!


The ending lead

Different tastes do exist. I like Mick Ralphs a lot. I admit my favourite solo of his is Mott's All the way from Memphis; That interplay with the sax is something...

Odd-beat, as I guitarist myself I certainly don't hold Keith accoutable for the tuning problems that he encountered with the Dan Armstrong, only that the tuning itself contributed to the the overall sound of the Stone's '69 tour, favorably more often than not.

Keith did have guitars capoed and tuned for certain songs. The black 57 Les Paul Custom for instance was used for JJF and SFM, both of which had the guitar capoed at the 4th fret and in open g. I not sure but I don't think he used this guitar for any other songs on the tour. Mathijs?

As to the guitar on ADTHL being intentionally out of tune I have no idea. I only know that it works!

Finally, sorry for hijacking your thread GS!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 18:35 by ChrisM.

Why do some dislike Ronnies solo on Blinded By Rainbows? It makjes an already stunning song even better!

I think Keith and Ronnie (in concert) have being the clulprits for some of the worst leads I've heard!

the song itself is fine (and a sentiment that I was personally glad to see them express on record)- the solo however just seems tuneless and inappropriate

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the song itself is fine (and a sentiment that I
> was personally glad to see them express on
> record)- the solo however just seems tuneless and
> inappropriate


We'll just have to agree to disagree!

But I'll agree that it was a fine result for Northern Ireland last night. Lets not mention England!

I don't think Keith was out of tune for the entire 69 tour. That is just kind of a sweeping statemnt that goes too far. What I do think is that a) in 69 Keith was still tuning the old fashioned way. With a harmonica, or by ear etc. In other words w/o a tuner. Some people have a "flat" ear or a "sharp" one. Keith COULD have had a flat ear and always tuned a little too low. But I think the real culprit might be the recording technique for the 69 boots. The audience recordings that have to travel through physical space in a hall, bouncing around, picking up reverbs etc will then in turn sound off. Then there is of course the speed problemas of boots. Much more prevalent on earlier boots. All that could explain Keith's out of tunness.
By the same token could Taylor be out of tune? Or Jagger w/o the help of decent monitors?
Was Keith out of tune within his own guitar? E.g. was the B string out of tune while the rest was in? You know what I mean.
ChrisM how did you find out that Keith's guitar in ADTL is 1/4 off?

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore wrote:

ChrisM how did you find out that Keith's guitar in ADTL is 1/4 off?

I wish I could say that it was my own excellent ear that detected it but it was mentioned in a guitar magazine interview a few years back (Sorry I don't remember which one) Keith readily agreed that it was the case and suggested that it was intentional. Anyway, after reading the artical I decided to check out the claim myself so I tuned my guitar as close as my ear could detect to Keith's and checked it against a digital tuner and it showed abit flat. Next, I tuned my guitar to Mick Taylor's guitar checked it against the tuner and showed closer to pitch. Try it yourself! Mind you Mick Taylor has been quoted as saying that the humid conditons at Nellcote caused the guitars to often go out of tune.

Just to clarify, I never said that Keith was out of tune for the entire '69 tour, just on certain songs (and not always the same ones) I also said that I didn't think it was a bad thing (most of the time) I don't know what Keith used to tune his guitar during the tour but on many recordings it is evident that he, or more accuately his guitar, is out of tune in relation to the other instruments or to itself (i.e, B or G sting slightly off pitch)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 22:51 by ChrisM.

Back in those good old days there wasn't as much guitar switching. After a few songs on the same guitar its not going to stay in tune. Tuner slipage, string bending, heat etc. and by the time your working on the 3rd of 4th song in a row tuning from string to string changed. So they tuned a string or two on stage between songs. You ear tune a open string and the intonation is slightly off its out of tune down the neck.

I agree with ChrisM, the slightly out of tune guitars make the '69 tour recordings very raw and fitting the Rolling Stones.

The Dead gave me a few.....talk about a hit or miss live show....Yikes

Perhaps this "out of tune" issue deserved its own thread. Anyway, some of the posts speak of "being out of tune" when I think they mean "playing out of key."