Maybe this is why you don't hear too many Berry-style songs any more -- the old cliche goes, "you don't miss it till it's gone".

Never was this more evident than with the departure of Bill Wyman. Guitar players may come and go, but the rhythm section of Wyman/Watts was the underpinning of the Stones sound for so many years.

Arguably, Bill's retirement was the single greatest loss the Stones ever suffered, and the greatest impact on the overall sound.

Now, Darryl Jones is a technically great player, but the old white boy had a sense of swing that Darryl just doesn't have. This isn't a racist statement, but simply an acknowledgment of an anomaly that has a strong feeling of irony surrounding it.

Let me offer a caveat -- without Darryl, the band may have not experimented as much as they have since 1994, so arguably, this was a breath of freshness that the band truly needed.

There are arguments pro and con, and I'm still a fan of the current incarnation, but let me posit this as an undeniable fact -- Wyman's departure affected the overall sound much more than Taylor's resignation.

Good point Bassplayer.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

I agree. I wish Bill would come back!

I love Daryl Jones. Not only is he a better musician from a technical standpoint, he gets into the groove of the song. Bill would go off on his own alot. I guess cause no one really cared. Not to say he didnt do a great job, just that he would do his own bit instead of playing hand in hand with Charlie.

Also, I'd make the case that versions of Little Queenie done on the Bridges tour were FAR better than any Berry tune played during the Bill era, except maybe Let It Rock and Sweet Little 16 from 78.

-Drake

Let me put it another way -- I listen to the 1978 version of "Let It Rock", with its unmistakable chugga-chugga feel, but with the 2006 Stones, it's not there anymore. I really think this is why so many of the old-timers are getting disillusioned.

The Stones can still "rock", but they seem to have lost the sense of "roll" that set them apart from anyone else. Is that it? Am I oversimplifying?

I can definately see where you're coming from, but Let It Rock always did have that train engine sound to it. Little Queenie never did. Instead on Bridges they had this amazing swing to that track that IMHO it never had before. I attribute it to the great dueling guitars, solid-as-a-rock-boom-boom-watts and Daryl Jones groovin with the stellar beat.

I think the setlists were better and they didnt use the shitty backup singers everyone would say the band was better at the groove these days.

-Drake

drake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love Daryl Jones. Not only is he a better
> musician from a technical standpoint, he gets into
> the groove of the song. Bill would go off on his
> own alot. I guess cause no one really cared. Not
> to say he didnt do a great job, just that he would
> do his own bit instead of playing hand in hand
> with Charlie.
>
> Also, I'd make the case that versions of Little
> Queenie done on the Bridges tour were FAR better
> than any Berry tune played during the Bill era,
> except maybe Let It Rock and Sweet Little 16 from
> 78.

Drake, I like Darryl, too, so maybe I'm overstating the case. Bill was, and is, masterful at injecting his sense of swing into a rock n roll song. Another 1978 example is "When the Whip Comes Down".

"To go off on your own" kinda hits home, 'cause that's the way I play. I think the bass lines are part of the melody of a given song, as long as the bottom stays solid and the rhythm doesn't get lost.

It's a tricky thing, and Bill was a master at it. The extended live jams of Midnight Rambler and YCAGWYW prove it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-07-21 01:27 by bassplayer617.

Funny this should come up today because I was just listening to Little Queenie from a boot of the first BTB show in Chicago and, man, did it swing! So much sothat I grabbed my guitar and played along with it four times!

It's true that some numbers don't "swing" on this tour but, in fairness, I remember IORR swinging at Soldier Field in a Berry-like style last September...

x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-07 07:12 by Beelyboy.

Beelyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok it's a little long. a little more than a
> little...i'll suspend myself from posting for
> awhile..
> but this one got to me.
>
> wyman is a genius bass player. genius. and perfect
> perfect perfectly in that swinging fatass pocket
> with charlie period. u don't get to be a band that
> big, & stay that big...and keep getting more and
> more hot and interesting and stay big for almost
> half a century...no matter how great your
> songwriters and front people are...without a
> rhythm section that is otherworldly phenomenal,
> comfortable with chaos...
> i don't miss it because the large majority of what
> i Primarily listen to
> is bill with brian or mickt or ronnie.
> i love darryl's stage presence and vibe, and some
> of the studio work he did for the Stones, with the
> Stones...thought he made a grand entrance with VL
> particularly, and do have respect for him...and
> the boyz aren't dopes...
> ...some of his spirited riffage is fun and
> definetly locked and loaded.
> but i've often whined here that he being such a
> virtuoso with a jazz background, could maybe
> (perhaps respectfully ala pino 'replacing' the ox)
>
> actually transcribe and learn bill's parts...and
> then shake it up a little or improvise...but holy
> moly...at least effin "reference" where those
> amazing songs come from,
> spiritually...physically....not just hanging on
> the root...
> or some tasty riffing around it...tho i have no
> contempt for his playing per se...and actually
> very much like his prescence...he needs to really
> give bill some huge mentorial respect in his
> personal mind. especially with the 'simplest'
> stuff...what i imagine darryl considers the more
> 'simple' war horses, like iorr etc...he's
> there...i ain't bitching bring back bill...
> i'm just sayin' what everybody knows dammit.
> i mean i don't know for sure how palladino
> approached his role, whether he "read" it...or
> transcribed it overnight for the tour that started
> directly after mr. enwhistle passed. point is...he
> is 'referencing', respecting...where he is and
> what the group's "musical" elements consisted of,
> stylistically etc...
> all you 'connected' folks
> here...shidobee...whoever is working with them, or
> knows them, or who works for them or something...
>
> maybe we at the forum can get transcriptions of
> the bass parts on most of the hugely changing
> setlist...and just make sure they "get" to him...
>
> with a heart and flowers...no dig...just like dig
> bill man.
> ok a fantasy but u get the point.
> a recent poster here who was lucky enuff to see a
> recent show was posting that darryl was "popping"
> his bass...i guess he, or she, meant kinda that
> 'slap' thing...do NOT bring that near the rolling
> stones please.
> you wouldn't do it to otis redding...it's out of
> context. not experimental or groovy. i like
> darryl's personal vibe tho...so darryl, listen to
> the records man, seriously...miles was
> miles...bill is an original member of the world's
> greatest rock 'n roll band. that is heavy shit.
> that is very heavy.
> not a utility player, and that's meant totally
> without personal attack; i'd attack if i
> wanted...but he does seem so nice and powers the
> stage show in a cool way...plus they went over my
> head when they hired him...they don't check shit
> out with me...eeediiiottss...
> maybe darryl's trying to really make a
> contribution, maybe the 'swing' thing is a 'feel'
> thing. more primitive than schooled...something
> one loves and 'comes from'...i know charlie comes
> from a 'jazz background' but he's got 44 years of
> amazing rock and roll records out and one or two
> indie jazz orchestra things...so case closed. and
> he was listenin' to that swingin' stuff & birdie,
> not the more avant garde miles stuff mostly. I
> THINK... as reflected in his jazz orchestra.
> yes i miss bill's sense of swing.
> charlie and bill, along with whatever
> guitarists...inventors and originators, even
> amidst the most derivative, beloved & hackneyed
> folk/blues progressions...
> they turned into something else...
> bubbleboy bemoans the obvious
> a perfect magical chemical fit...yeah i know he
> was the only one with a good amp...har har...
>
> alla that stuff before "modern"
> recording...speeding up and slowing down together
> like on ya-ya's...oh carol i think is one example,
> a mystical unit...i always still marvel at rt. 66
> from '64 camden...it is so obvious, and what a
> good recording...the rest of the band could have
> stopped playing in the same key as the others (as
> if that could ever happen) and it STILL wouldn't
> have wrecked the groove.
> the stuff i've seen him do live during exiles was
> incredible...
> and the little sucker never moved much more than
> his eyes.
> and his fingers.
> come to think of it, there was another with that
> same great lack of stage presence on the other
> side of the stage.
> come to think of it, it was the best rock and roll
> show i have ever been to in my life...i listen
> back to the boots thinking, 'no, man...u were
> young...think of everything you've seen before and
> after'...and it always comes up...
> the rolling stones. msg '72...and now i'm slowly
> getting more and more of the best shows from that
> tour...and thanks to an angel here, i've got live
> in ny.
> what a boost...i never imagined i'd hear that
> again, and have been trying to describe it to
> people for a longgggg time.
> yer thread tags bill as part and parcel of that
> amazing looping ascending, descending brutal and
> delicate punctuation...more thump and melody and
> virtuosity than he ever gets credit for. unless
> the credit is girls girls girls.
> plus he's a brilliant bass player.

Damn Beeleyboy, that was better than the original On The Road!

Bill played some great bass live from
72-82.He was all over the place.I think he changed his style a bit on the Steel Wheels tour.We all miss him and like Darryl.What can we do?I'm cool with Darryl.

Basssplayer 617 makes some valid points. While Daryl Jones is a great player and worthy addition to the band, the core sound of the Stones changed for the worse when Bill dropped out. Bill was important to the recording process as well to what came through live that this band developed over many years. I freely admit being bigger fan of the older material with Bill more than the new incarnation of this band. It isn't that I don't dig the band with DJ. They are great. The old gang did swing though more than the current lineup in my opinion. You can hear it on the studio stuff as well as at any concert you hear live or when they are in the the studio. Sure Keith, Ronnie, and MT played bass on many tracks, but Bill was a very important ingredient to the songs that were cut when he was around. This was very much true in the first 5-7 years they were playing together. Is it any coincidence that this was their most prolific period? I don't see how anyone could say Berry covers sounded better with Daryl than with Bill. This assertion to me is ludicrous, but in the spirit of conversation I say to each his own. I think the loss of both Bill AND Stew was massive as to how it affected how the band played and sounded. Despite the crap that gets laid on Brian he was also a big piece to the puzzle although I am sure many will disagree. The tunes don't lie though. That original lineup was killer and they could swing like few others could. That's where it all started and Bill was a big part of it. For just one example put on Down the Road Apiece. Not that SWINGS! Case closed. Stew and Brian RIP, and I miss Bill.

There wasn;t anyone to rival that Stones swing from 62-65era.Swing on Bill and Charlie,swing on

bassplayer617 you said it all. It was Bill that drew me to the stones more than anyone else. When I first heard I Wanna Be Your Man in 1963, Bills bass blew me away. Long live the Stones, Long live Bill, one day I hope to meet him.

Yeah I agree Glenn. The irony you pointed out had never dawned on me till now.
Darryl is a great player and looks good on stage. I also met him once - he's a lovely bloke but I will forever miss Bill.

I that silly about it at times that I notice some songs on Exile without him. "Happy" esp.

He even made a bassline to a song like "Satisfaction" that would have been actually alot more difficult than most would give credit for. In fact his bassline to this track almost doesn't make any sense. And yet it's perfect. Irony abound....

I actually left a note at Sticky Fingers restaurant asking him for two things:
1. Could I please have Brian's Les Paul from the Rock and Roll Circus hanging in a glass case on the wall, or if not
2. Please come back to the Stones.

I handed it to the girl and she laughed and said she'd make sure it got to him.
Well that was a year ago and Brian's guitar hasn't arrived in the mail and Bill isn't on stage with the boys yet.
Maybe he's still deciding.....

:0)

kyle m

Have you ever lent somebody $20 and never seen them again? It was probably worth it.

I love leaving notes. Last week I went to see Pirates and some dipshit parked his red Mustang in two spaces. I left a little note saying: "You are my hero! Awesome parking job!" Hopefully the guy/gal understands sarcasm.

-Drake

i miss bill too.. i wish he'd never left..its clear he has no interest in coming back.....

curtisdavis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill played some great bass live from
> 72-82.He was all over the place.I think he changed
> his style a bit on the Steel Wheels tour.

But then the Steel Wheels tour changed the whole band from a real live performing unit to an overkill of light, sound and theater, complete with keyboards and synths. It gave them an artificial touch which needed years to set back.

>Bill was a very important ingredient to the songs that were cut when he was around. This was very much true in the first 5-7 years they were playing together.


One of the great things about the SACD reissues was that it shined a light on how great Bill was especially in those early years.

I agree that the Stones are not the same without Bill. I was just listening to some of the Stones late 70's type stuff... the quick numbers on Some Girls and E.R. I was thinking to myself, man Bill is playing great, D. Jones can't play like this (style wise). And I was like, man Bill and Charlie are playing great together. I miss that in today's Stones, albums and live.

"You'll be studying history and you'll be down the gym. And I'll be down the pub, probably playing pool and drinking."

With Daryl the rhythm section sounds like "generic rock band" if you ask me. With Bill you only needed to hear 2 seconds of bass/drums to know it was the Stones. Just an opinion.

While I think characterizing the Stones current sound as being similar to a "generic rock band" is a bit harsh on Daryl, clearly Bill did serve a major role in getting that signature Stones sound that we all love. I will never forget the first time I saw them in 1969 and it was that big bottom sound they produced that stood out and really floored me. Sure, they were the full package visually and musically as few other bands could do, but Charlie and Bill certainly got something special going together. After all these years I think it is fair to say that not many bands could or can make that sound. This was one of the reasons why I loved Rolling Stones concerts. When Ronnie Lane was with them The Faces were also a heavy bottom band, and this is why I always dug them as well. Yes the SACD's do Bill big time justice and are a highlight of those terrific re-mixes.

sure miss Bill's playing. Charlie and Bill together were VERY important for the stones sound imho.

Daryl is not the first to fill an empty part of a band. No matter how competant and likeable he was faced with a mountain to climb. And proffesionally reached the top. If there were any flaws I'm sure the Stones would have looked elsewhere. But having to face filling Bill's shoes I'm sure he fully expected full criticism. What can't be replaced is Bill's part in the begining and 30 years as a Rolling Stone. He gave a solid fulfilling bass line. Just listen to GYYYO. He is the world's most established Stones historian. A wonderful muscian. A workaholic and although Darly does an outstanding job all round, cannot be truly replaced.

Bill has this great percolating (or "perkolating") style that sounds totally unlike any other bassist I've ever heard. It seems to have peaked in '81 - I didn't notice it much by Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle, though.

Bill Wyman is missing. He and Charlie were the greatest rhythmic section. They played in complete synergy.
Besides, Bill is a great song writer as well. The Stones should have recorded his compositions.

Jones is playing a short scale Mustang bass lately, so I guess someone did mention the "Bill" word to him lately....

Any way. I have stated this since the Voodoo Lounge tour, and have been attacked by it ever since: the Rolling Stones ceased to exist in 1993, and they should have quit the moment Wyman left. In te studio they still cut some great tracks, mainly with hired bassists who sound a lot like Wyman, but live on stage the swing and drive is totally gone. Every musician knows: your as good as yor rythm section. There's a million of flash guitarists able to throw out brilliant solo's, but there's only one Wyman or Watts. Led Zep knew it was over when Bonham died.

We all know the stand-out moments of Wyman -78 and 81 tour, but listen with "bass-ears" to Brussels Affair. You probably heard a million times,but now listen only to the bass. It really struck me that the driving force behind Brown Sugar and Tumbling dice are that thumping, fatt bass of Wyman. He never stands still (on the neck that is), he never plays the same note twice, but it always sounds relaxed and laid back. It's always funky and driving. He doesn't interlock with Watts, but he completely locks with Keith. Agin Tumbling Dice from Brussels: you can take out keith's rythm guitar and you would hardly miss it all all -Bill covers all basses. He really is a bassist from the skiffle period, and you can hear he listened a lot to Donald Dunn. His style is very hard to copy, since it is bassically formed because of his small hands. If you try his style on a long scale bass you know he just plays too fast.

Darryl Jones is technically a much more advanced player, but I bet he was give orders by Jagger: don't do anything funny, just cover Keith, and make sure we make it through the song". Darryl has become, together with Leavell, the leaders of the band. He makes sure the song continues after Wood or Richards @#$%& up again. I just really don't like his style and sound. All he does is thumping out querter notes. He doesn't swing, he doesn't dance around like Bill did.

Mathijs

Great post, Mathijs! I'm glad that they haven't stopped in 1993, though. Do you think Joey Spampinato would have done any better that Darryl Jones? I'm asking because I don't really know the guy...

What was the deal with Joey Spampinato? I remember Keith saying around the time of Hail! Hail! that Joey was the only other bass player aside from Bill who could make an electric bass sound like an acoustic stand-up. And somewhere else that Mick nixed his joining the Stones because Joey was a "Keith guy" and it would upset the balance of power. So was he even denied an audition since it was ultimately Charlie's decision?

Chas said it all in one line. It sucks that Bill is no longer in the band. I think about that fact every time I go to Stones show. I always think to myself that I wish Bill was there.

"You'll be studying history and you'll be down the gym. And I'll be down the pub, probably playing pool and drinking."