I confess.

I am a kind of barbarian.

Traditional jazz does not move me. Blue jazz is OK, but in a bar when graciously played during 20 minutes or so. After, I tend to get bored.

Curiously, I feel more attracted by the so called free jazz, like Archie Shepp, because of his rhytmic extravaganza. 20 years ago, I could not stand it. Now I discover the funk groove that lays beneath.

Classic jazz bores me because of its usual structure - a melodic theme played four times, then everyone jammming and soloing, then the grand rendez-vous for the final, ie again the four intro riffs. I know it is a bit of caricature, but it sounds like that to me.

The question is : where are the musicians going ? For instance, the classic bass line, one tune per beat, very fast beat, is essentially a sophisticated scale exercice. But I miss the groove.

My jazz interest goes as far as flipping on the jazz channel on the radio.. I like what I hear but I don't really hear much difference and I wouldn't really put it on myself..

I probably listen to more jazz than any other genre of music. Miles, Armstrong, Ellington, Coltrane are my faves....many others, of course. Always something new to discover....

Yes, it is the same for me : I dont' feel the diffence when standard jazz band are pumping during ten minutes long.

It works better than the gas the dentist gives you. That must be why they play jazz in the dentist's office.

started out listening to jazz that blended r&b influences, particularly The Crusaders (on Ronnie's solo album "Gimme Some Neck" the Crusaders' bass player Pops Popwell is featured) and Ramsey Lewis, among some others..War was a great band that had a lot of jazz influence. that gets you to the real stuff. My favorite era was the 6o's Blue Note stuff, so many great albums. they were all hi quality and theres a ton of it...Bobby Timmons, Joe Henderson, Art Blakey, Jimmy Smith, Hank Mobley, Wayne Shorter, Grant Green...only a few. Great groove, imaginative arrangements. so well recorded, everything top notch, especially the playing.
DR

right non, Duke! Blue Note continues to be a fabulous label for jazz, too. Love all the artists you mentioned....don't ferget Stanley Turrentine, Jimmy Smith & Lee Morgan...to name but a few more....

oops - you did mention the late, great Jimmy Smith. To tie this back to the Stones a bit - I saw Mac (Ian McLagan) in SF awhile back the week Jimmy died and he was thoughtful enough to pay tribute to him that night. Smith influenced just about everyone on the organ. I wound up making some CDRs for Mac that I got to him through his secretary of Smith shows that he had done in Mac's town (Austin, TX) a few years ago....

I prefer the jazz that is rooted in the blues...Hammond B organ players like Jimmy Smith, Reuben Wilson, and Georgie Fame.

In the trumpet/sax players sub-genre, I have a ton of Coltrane and Miles.

I went through a jazz/rock fusion period in the late 70s and got into Jean Luc Ponty, Pat Metheny, Weather Report, Crusaders etc. All that 70s fusion sounds very dated now and I hardly play any of those LPs.

awesome, T&A..that you got that music to Mac, so cool! I saw Jimmy Smith and Stanley Turrentine at a festival in Charlotte NC about 16 years ago, it was perfect.
that festival also had the Modern Jazz Quartet, I saw them too, been a fan since.
particularly like Milt Jackson, a great blues player maybe the greatist vibes player.
do you like Bobby Timmons? he had the funkiest touch I've ever heard, on piano..with Art BLakey, and others...check out Kenny Burrell's live cd that Timmons and Blakey are on. hell you've probably got it! if not I could send it to you...
DR

I'm moved by the early 60s hard bop/funk style, as played by Herbie Hancock, the Davis and Coltrane bands of that time, a little later McCoy Tyner solo, that kind of predictable scene I guess, from a 60s rock fan. There is just something in those fifths I still can't get over!...

Although I "tried" a hell of a lot, I still don't really enjoy free jazz, and not that much bebop either (save for most of T. Monk).

I much prefer late 20s/early 30s Louis Armstrong, or Django Reinhardt.

I also love John McLaughlin's thing (esp. early to mid-period) deeply. I don't find much spirit or interest to my taste in the other main fusion acts. As long as I'm into fusion I will rather have Steely Dan or Frank Zappa: fusion with a dark sense of humour...

Charlie clearly loves the lyrical aspect of jazz, the era when it was popular music, since he's made at least 3 cd's paying homage to that music. he's said in interviews how much he likes Dave Tough's playing, and Max Roach. I'd love to hear Charlie discuss music in genearal and jazz in particular. He also loves more recent players, especially Tony Williams. I've always felt that Charlie should be regarded as a lot more than the Stones' drummer. He's the link between the American jazz drummers and the ist generation English rock drummers. Ginger Baker also comes to mind yet would you say he has the same blues feeling as Charlie?

DR

Closest to jazz I get is when Jimbo is practisin' his groovy scat song;
Jon Lord make some jazz-rockish soloin' on his fat Hammond
or the spacey beat in Shine A Light approaches that form of music.

I love jazz but wouldn't call myself an expert. Thelonis Monk, Coltrane, Grant Green, Miles Davis, Wes Montgomery are all great. I find Miles' late 60s jazz/rock pretty interesting stuff. I am still sort of experimenting and finding new stuff. Would like to check out more acid jazz as they call it. With jazz you need to be in the right mood for it, its great to throw on for nice back ground music or when you are unwinding.

I just got T-Bone Walkers complete recordings and that is great stuff if you are looking for a nice blues/jazz mix.

Definition of Jazz(not mine) - 10 guys on a stage all playing a different tune - not for me thanks.

Jazz is. Jazz leeft. Gebeurt. Beweegt. Jazz neemt. Jazz geeft. Jazz weet. Jazz spreekt. Jazz doet. Jazz laat. Jazz komt. Jazz gaat. Uniek. Muziek. Van vlees en bloed. Jazz waagt. Jazz wint. Breekt baan. Jazz bonkt. Jazz staat. Jazz valt. Is overal. Ontroert. Verwarmt. Grijpt bij de keel. Jazz knettert. Knalt. Ontketent. Heerst. Jazz heelt. Jazz zuivert. Lichaam. Geest. Jazz swingt. Jazz vecht. Is waar. Is echt. Geen loze kreet. Geen leeg gebaar. Jazz werkt. Versterkt. Ontwapent. Toont. Jazz laaft. Jazz loont. Is water. Brood. Jazz lacht. Jazz huilt. Jazz in. Jazz uit. Legt bloot. Daagt uit. Jazz kookt. Jazz bruist. Jazz troost. Jazz bijt. Jazz bloedt. Heeft schijt. Is zwart. Is wit. Is rood. Niet grijs. Jazz vloekt. Jazz moet. Verbroedert. Zoekt. Jazz vindt. Jazz wijst. Jazz schokt. Jazz eist. Jazz hoog. Jazz laag. Jazz voor. Jazz na. Jazz rookt. Jazz jaagt. Is eigen baas. Vereent. Verzoent. Begeestert. Woedt. Bevrijdt. Bewijst. Begrijpt. Vervoert. Jazz spreidt. Jazz sluit. Bezielt. Verrijkt. Geeft hoop. Verblijdt. Jazz shittert. Glanst. Jazz flitst. Jazz danst. Verhit. Zweept op. Bemint. Verleidt. Jazz roept. Jazz voelt. Jazz groeit. Jazz bloeit. Jazz blaakt. Jazz blijkt. Betovert. Geilt. Jazz ademt. Zweet. Jazz fluistert. Schreeuwt. Ontmaskert. Snijdt. Jazz glijdt. Jazz sluipt. Jazz slijpt. Jazz spuit. Jazz klinkt. Jazz dwingt. Jazz lonkt. Jazz blinkt. Jazz vraagt. Jazz raakt. Verlost. Verbaast. Viert feest. Verklaart. Is bitter. Zoet. Is hot. Is cool. Jazz ijlt. Vooruit. Voorbij. Ver weg. Dichtbij. Paraat. Bereid. Op weg. Altijd. Jazz was. Jazz is Jazz blijft.


A poem by Jules Deelder, the night mayor of Rotterdam, great jazz lover. I am sorry , but this is for the Dutch readers of this message board only, but you may gather what it is about.....

The Joker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I confess.
>
> I am a kind of barbarian.
>
> Traditional jazz does not move me. Blue jazz is
> OK, but in a bar when graciously played during 20
> minutes or so. After, I tend to get bored.

>
> Classic jazz bores me because of its usual
> structure - a melodic theme played four times,
> then everyone jammming and soloing, then the grand
> rendez-vous for the final, ie again the four intro
> riffs. I know it is a bit of caricature, but it
> sounds like that to me.

Well then you're just simply listening to the wrong CD's.

Just like there's alot of MEDIOCRE rock music, there's alot of mediocre Jazz, just like there's alot of mediocre classical music.

I started listening to Jazz around 1994. I remember it because I'd just "hit the wall" with rock. How many times can you listen to "Susie Q" or "Honky Tonk Women" before you want some new fresh sounds ? Not that I dislike rock at all, there just wasn't anything fresh coming out and I needed to expand my listening options. Well you will not be disappointed with classic Jazz, IMO.

I'd suggest you start with an incredible list of "Top Jazz CD's", and then report back if you're "unmoved" or not. Here's my personal list of favorites, along with their ratings. These all score "90" or higher to me:

ALSO... I'd suggest that it's difficult to generalize about a jazz musician. So saying "I like Miles Davis" or "I like Ben Webster" is like saying "I like the Beatles"... there might be some similarity and common threads in their different CD's but you really have to SPECIFY the CD. There are a few great Monk CD's, for example (I just recently posted on a great one), but there are alot of mediocre ones. Back to the list, focus on those rated 95 or better to start, you're unlikely to be disappointed:

COMPOSER COMPOSITION RATING
Coltrane, John Love Supreme 99.0
Coltrane, John Live at the Village Vanguard '61 99.0
Coltrane, John Live at the Village Vanguard Masters 99.0
Montgomery, Wes Bumpin' 99.0
Coltrane, John Live at Birdland 98.5
Sanders, Pharoah Karma 98.5
Davis, Miles In a Silent Way 98.0
Mingus, Charles Picathy Erectus 97.5
Sinatra / Basie Sinatra Live at the Sands 97.5
Mingus, Charles Mingus Ah-Um 97.0
Sinatra / Jobim Frank Sinatra and Carlos Jobim 97.0
Coltrane, John First Meditations 96.5
Davis, Miles Kind of Blue 96.5
Davis, Miles Jack Johnson Tribute 96.5
Davis, Miles Milestones 96.3
Barbieri, Gato Chapter 3: Viva Zapata 96.0
Coltrane, John Ole' Coltrane 96.0
Coltrane, John Coltrane 96.0
Davis, Miles Milestones 96.0
Garland, Red Red's Blues 96.0
Green, Grant Idle Moments 96.0
McCann & Harris Swiss Movement 96.0
Mingus, Charles Mingus at Carnegie Hall 96.0
Mobley, Hank et al Monday Nite at Birdland 96.0
Webster, Ben Soulville 96.0
Brown, Clifford Beginning & End 95.5
Burrell, Kenny Midnight Blue 95.5
Coltrane / Dolphy Live at Birdland w/ Eric Dolphy 95.5
Coltrane / Garland Traneing In 95.5
Davis, Miles Porgy & Bess 95.5
Donaldson, Lou Scorpion Live 95.5
Green, Grant Green is Beautiful 95.5
Isham, Mark The Silent Way Project (re: Miles Davis) 95.5
Morgan, Lee Standards 95.5
Nelson, Oliver More Blues and the Abstract Truth 95.5
Sanders, Pharoah Tauhid 95.5
Shorter, Wayne Adam's Apple 95.5
Smith / Montgomery Further Adventures of Jimmy & Wes 95.5
Coltrane, John Live in Stockholm w/ Miles Davis 95.3
Davis, Miles Live in Stockholm w/ John Coltrane 95.3
Coltrane, John Like Sonny 95.0
Davis, Miles Bags Groove 95.0
Davis, Miles Round About Midnite 95.0
Jackson, Milt Bags Groove w/ Miles Davis 95.0
Jackson, Milt Bags & Trane (w/ John Coltrane) 95.0
Lateef, Yuseff Eastern Sands 95.0
Machito, Etc. Original Mambo Kings 95.0
Shorter, Wayne Speak No Evil 95.0
Tyner, McCoy Real McCoy 95.0
Young, Lester LY in Washington Vol. 1 '56 95.0
Coltrane, John Standard Coltrane 94.8
Davis, Lockjaw Very Saxxy w/ Davis, Tate, & Hawkins 94.8
Hawkins, Coleman Very Saxxy w/ Davis, Tate, & Hawkins 94.8
Tate Very Saxxy w/ Davis, Tate, & Hawkins 94.8
Adderly, Cannonball Somethin' Else 94.5
Blakey, Art Night at Birdland Volume 1 Live 94.5
Burrell, Kenny Kenny Burrell w/ John Coltrane 94.5
Coltrane, John Live at the Five Spot (w/ Thelonius Monk) 94.5
Coltrane, John Kenny Burrell w/ John Coltrane 94.5
Coltrane, John Coltrane Jazz 94.5
Davis, Miles Cookin' w/ Miles Davis Qtet 94.5
Dolphy, Eric Far Cry 94.5
Dolphy, Eric At the Five Spot 94.5
Dorham, Kenny Round about midnite at Café Bohemia 94.5
Kelly, Winton Smokin' at the Half Note 94.5
Lateef, Yuseff Live at Peps 94.5
Mingus, Charles Mingus at Antibes 94.5
Mingus, Charles Black Saint & Sinner Woman 94.5
Monk, Thelonius Live at the Five Spot (w/ John Coltrane) 94.5
Montgomery, Wes Smokin' at the Half Note 94.5
Moody, James Return from Overbrook 94.5
Pepper, Art Friday Nite at the Village Vanguard 94.5
Coltrane, John Bags & Trane (w/ Milt Bags Jackson) 94.3
Davis, Miles Live at Blackhawk 94.3
Ammons, Gene Gene Ammons All Stars 94.0
Coltrane, John Blue Train 94.0
Coltrane, John Afro/Blue Impressions LIVE 93.5
Farmer, Art Best of 93.5
Gordon, Dexter GO 93.5
Monk, Thelonius w/ John Coltrane 93.5
Parker, Charlie Jam Session '52 93.5
Parker, et al Jazz at Massey Hall LIVE 93.5
Coltrane, John Crescent 93.0
Hawkins, Coleman Accent on Tenor Sax 93.0
Henderson, Joe Page One 93.0
Mobley, Hank Soul Station 93.0
Coltrane, John Sun Ship 92.5
Morgan, Lee Best of Blue Note 92.3
Baker, Chet Inglewood Jam LIVE w/ Charlie Parker 92.0
Montgomery, Wes Incredible Jazz Guitar 92.0
Parker, Charlie Inglewood Jam LIVE w/ Chet Baker 92.0
Davis, Miles Live Around the World 91.5
Montgomery, Wes Live at Tsubo 91.5
Silver, Horace and the Jazz Messengers 91.5
Stitt, Sonny Tune Up 91.5
Davis, Miles Collectors Items, 53 to 56 91.0
Pepper, Art A.P. Meets the Rhythm Section 90.5
Smith, Jimmy The Sermon 90.5
Davis, Miles Miles Smiles 90.0
Johnson, J.J. Quintergy: Live at the Vanguard 90.0
Navarro, Fats Fabulous Fats 1 90.0
Webster, Ben Ben & Sweets 90.0

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-06-12 22:09 by BornOnTheBayou.

Hound Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love jazz but wouldn't call myself an expert.
> > With jazz you need to be in the right mood for it,
> its great to throw on for nice back ground music
> or when you are unwinding.
>
>

WTF? No way, Jose. First of all, you need to be in the RIGHT MOOD FOR ALL MUSIC. Secondly, I find jazz to be much more stimulating than most rockn'roll in the sense that it requires active/mind listening. As KR once said, rockn'roll is from the waist down. It ain't background music for me....

Born on The Bayou, this is an excellent list!!!!


I collect versions of Ellington's Caravan. ANY version is good. that makes Ellington so outstanding! Ellington is so special. it doesn't matter if listen to John Buzon's version or to Monk's , it never ceases to amaze me. But not only Caravan, any Ellington composition is fab: The Ellington Suites sets tears to my eyes!!!

for those readers who do not know who Duke Ellington was/is: listen to the 1981-82 Stones tour, it opened with 'Take The A Train'. Charlie's Tentet used it the last residency at Ronnie Scott's to open and end the evening. A great tradition.

Ged Rambler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Definition of Jazz(not mine) - 10 guys on a stage
> all playing a different tune - not for me thanks.


You used my words. Freejazz is worst - occasionally Duke Ellington, Miles Davis and so on, are just ok.

But I have to admit, that most names from BornOnTheBayou’s list are totally unknown to me. Maybe it’s time to go to the jazz shelves of the record shop.

oneMary:

A word of advice - if Duke and Miles are "just ok" - you may as well avoid the record shop trip....

FWIW, the "golden age of rock" was probably from around 1968 to 1972, give or take a few years... there's been great stuff since but there was just a ton of creative rock music around that period.

By the same token, the "golden age of jazz", IMO, was around 1958 to 1964 or so... hence there's so much domination by Miles Davis and John Coltrane on my list because they were the "kings" of that timeframe.

But there's so many other great players that go back to that period. You just have to listen to alot of sounds and see what you like the best.

If you can only buy one album to start, I highly recommend Coltrane at the Vanguard, 1961, IMO it's the "Get yer ya-yas out" of live jazz albums... and it's his "signature" quartet at their musical zenith (Elvin Jones on Drums, McCoy Tyner on piano, and I want to say Reggie Workman on Bass though it might have been Jimmy Garrison, don't have the cd right in front of me).... but that tape is a masterpiece. Jones' touch on the cymbals will make your skin crawl.

For that matter, Coltrane Live at Birdland is pure gold too. I alternate between which is the best live jazz album but somehow usually come back to the Vanguard, prolly just because it's the first one I heard.

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-06-12 22:50 by BornOnTheBayou.

T&A, I guess I should have rephrased what I said. What I mean is that I wouldn't throw on a Miles cd if I were having friends over before going out or before a concert. Or if I were having a b-b-que. However there is nothing I enjoy more than coming home from work on a Friday and throwing on Coltrane's My Favorite Things and having a beer.

And different periods of jazz are so different that if you put on some late 60s Miles you would almost think you are listening to a coke-driven jam band. Some songs can be pure madness where others can be soothing.

bayou:

I would agree more or less with your end year for the golden age - however, I would start it about 30 years before! Duke, Bix & Armstrong were doing some very hot stuff...the swing of the 30's and the bop movement of the 40's were also fabulous.

Hound dog:

I getcha....

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bayou:
>
> I would agree more or less with your end year for
> the golden age - however, I would start it about
> 30 years before! Duke, Bix & Armstrong were doing
> some very hot stuff...the swing of the 30's and
> the bop movement of the 40's were also fabulous.
>
> Hound dog:
>
> I getcha....


Well those were entirely different sounds.

While I find big band/swing and be-bop to be interesting, it's not as engrossing to me as the post-bop era...

IMO part of the evolution was from avant-garde classical orchestra to jazz big band. In the late 1800's you had extremely creative "revolutionary" classical sounds coming from edgy composers like Debussy and Ravel. Classical had come full circle, and it morphed into "jazz compositions" in the early 1900's. Guys like Gershwin were instrumental in this... and so we had an abundance of "orchestra-sized" jazz ensembles in the 20's-30's, 40's. You could AFFORD to keep an orchestra going...

After WWII we started seeing more quintets and quartets. great instrumentalists weren't satisfied to sit back and be a piece of a large orchestra... plus big band leaders couldn't afford to keep them on the road...

You had more musical experimentation from these individualists... to my mind that's what Charlie Parker and the be-bop era of the early 50's was all about... breaking away from large orchestra organization.

But it was the late 50's to early 60's that saw the zenith of the great individualists, IMO... so many great artists, I wouldn't do justice to try and list them all.

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

Wow juf, I LOVE "Caravan". I recorded it with my band (Rockband) on one of our albums. It is actually a staple of our show. When I learned Sax this was one of the first tunes I ever learned to sightread. There are some beautiful lyrics to it as well. When playing the tune I always felt that that run down "within this desert cara-VAN" was perfect for guitar power chords.
So that song got me totally hooked on the Duke. Actually one of my favorite Duke albums is a semi-live one of just a trio of Duke on piano, Mingus and Williams. They do several Duke standards but VERY rough. And the Duke himself plays the piano very hard.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

nope.

BTW...

Any idea what jazz artists / albums Charlie is most drawn to ??? Links to any comments he's made about jazz would be much appreciated.

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

It is impossible to be into the stones, and not appreciate good music in general!

That is including jazz.

Some great works are mentioned above (although, there is not enough Mingus. There is never enough mingus!).

To all rockers here that are not into jazz is: do RUSH to a record store and buy just any cd out of the list that Born posted. You will make your mind later on who you prefer, but for the time being you know that you got some truly great masterpieces (I mean, if you had to initiate someone to r'n'r you would start from exile, not from bon jovi!)

But if I had to mention only one title just to start with, I would say Mercy Mercy Mercy by Cannonball Adderley. No brain, only guts involved. This is pure DYNAMITE! Almost r'n'r jazz. It's true, genuine, gin-soaked-bar-room jazz!

C

Would agree with liddas that Mercy Mercy Mercy is a great place to start if you are a newcomer to Jazz. Another personal favourite of mine is Horace Silver - just about all of his albums for Blue Note contain well structured ,easy to handle tunes which are very infectious. Art Blakey springs to mind as another jazz musician whose work is easy to get on with - try Moanin' as an itroduction to his work.

Andy