Lets face it, with all the shit he was in and into, he held them back, - paraphase from keith book. I know this will stir up a lot


they brought mick t and had 4 years that we;re 10 times better than the previous 4.- I dont think anyone can disagree with this



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-02-24 02:55 by whenthewhipcomesdown.

¿Que?

whenthewhipcomesdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lets face it, with all the shit he was in and
> into, he held them back, - paraphase from keith
> book. I know this will stir up a lot
>
Well, Keith also held back the Stones during much of the 70's with his lengthy drug abuse. He should have kicked himself out of the band back then. But, you know, it's cool when Keith @#$%& up and abuses drugs and leads a classic rock n' roll lifestyle, but it's bad when Brian did the same exact thing. Your argument here is utterly stupid.


they brought mick t and had 4 years that we;re 10
> times better than the previous 4.- I dont think
> anyone can disagree with this
>
That's your opinion and I disagree with it. I believe that the Brian Jones Era was actually more important, vibrant, and relevant now than the Mick Taylor Era.
>
>

Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/24/06 02:55 by
> whenthewhipcomesdown.

Keith, even in his darkest moments was still the primary
songwriter for the band. In Brian's darkest moments, he was a complete non-contributor.

One more thing . . . that ain't Mick Taylor that I see on so many rock mag covers of late. It's Brian Jones and HIS era that the music journalists are paying attention to. Hell, Brian was on the cover of UNCUT's tribute to 1966 with all the other legends from that time (ie. Dylan, Lennon, Zappa, etc.), and Mick and Keith weren't even on it! Brian's legend is on the rise. MT was a great session musician who is now just an afterthought . . .

neptune, thats BS, uncut is just trying to plug the movie

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One more thing . . . that ain't Mick Taylor that I
> see on so many rock mag covers of late. It's
> Brian Jones and HIS era that the music journalists
> are paying attention to. Hell, Brian was on the
> cover of UNCUT's tribute to 1966 with all the
> other legends from that time (ie. Dylan, Lennon,
> Zappa, etc.), and Mick and Keith weren't even on
> it! Brian's legend is on the rise. MT was a
> great session musician who is now just an
> afterthought . . .


give it a rest.........B.Jones "legend" has evolved over a long period of time.....now, with the release of books & movies about him, he's on the cover of magazines.........his musical contributions to the Stones were important but minimal.........oh and Mick and Keith havent been on any magazine covers......LMAO!!!

Thanks lenny, my points exsactly

Ummmm....Glass we seem to be butting heads a bit lately...but since EOMS i think is is an arguable point that Keith has been the primary songwriter. It is well documented that for many cuts in the IORR and GHS sessions, he was not even there. This is one of Mick Taylor's primary complaints, that he co-wrote many of the songs on these albums, and never got credit. Some Girls is often seen as a Jagger statement, co-credited by contractual agreement. Even with ABB there is arguement about how much Keith co-wrote, and the best percentage given to him is a 50-50 cut. I do not think that there is any point in history where even Keith, who loves his image and loves to brag, would claim he was the PRIMARY songwriter.There are even classic cuts attributed to the KR legend, such as Brown Sugar, that in interviews Keith will admit are wriiten by MJ and he imprints his style. Keith has also admitted that he wrote Beast of Burden as a veiled apology to Mick for being absent and a detriment for so long.

I do agree though that even in his worst years, he was more vital to the survival of the group then Brian had become near the end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-02-24 08:20 by kahoosier.

Glass Slide Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Keith, even in his darkest moments was still the
> primary
> songwriter for the band. In Brian's darkest
> moments, he was a complete non-contributor.


This is classic MK/KR revisionist history. Brian WAS a contributor until mid-1968, and played on much of Beggars Banquet. Jagger is talking out of his ass when he says that Brian only played on No Expectations in BB. But if people want to believe that falsehood, they can go ahead and do so. Brian was a great contributor to the Stones music until the LIB sessions, when he basically decided to stop attending altogether because he was being treated like shit by Mick and Keith.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

> Brian was a great contributor to the Stones music
> until the LIB sessions, when he basically decided
> to stop attending altogether because he was being
> treated like shit by Mick and Keith.


he decided to stop attending?.......i'd love to see you in a band with a guy in that condition, who wasn't a songwriter.......and see how long you'd last with him................dead weight

kahoosier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> USome Girls is often seen as a Jagger statement, co-credited by contractual agreement

Complete BS dude.......keith wrote beast, Before they make me, this bass line for miss you, the chours for far away eyes. so dont gimme that

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glass Slide Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Keith, even in his darkest moments was
> still the
> > primary
> > songwriter for the band. In Brian's darkest
> > moments, he was a complete non-contributor.
>
>
> This is classic MK/KR revisionist history. Brian
> WAS a contributor until mid-1968, and played on
> much of Beggars Banquet. Jagger is talking out of
> his ass when he says that Brian only played on No
> Expectations in BB. But if people want to believe
> that falsehood, they can go ahead and do so.
> Brian was a great contributor to the Stones music
> until the LIB sessions, when he basically decided
> to stop attending altogether because he was being
> treated like shit by Mick and Keith.


Were you there? MJ and KR were.

Also, not sure if that makes sense because the change in Stones sound
at the time of BB demphasized exotic instruments which Brian specialized in for a more blues, "American" sound--remember by '68 we were no longer talking about the guy playing Little Red Rooster (though I LOVE the slide work on No Expectations)

If you look at the Godard film you do not see someone who has much of anything meaningful to add.

Lastly--we all agree that except for the Auto Harp on YOu Got The Silver (which again I loved) he did not add much to Let It Bleed. Let It Bleed does not sound all that different to me from BB--in fact those 2 have many similarties, so it would seem reasonable to think his contributions to BB were farily minimal, as maintained.

bill credits billy preston for the bass line to "Miss You," I believe.

On the largest level, if brian didn't want to be in the band anymore, it's good he left. Unfortunately it didn't seem like he knew what he wanted. Better guidance would surely have helped. This was the wild west days of big time rock music: he wouldn't have slipped away nowadays.

But I think mick and keith missed the opportunity to make more experimental music a la "We Love You" by following dylan and the beatles in getting "back to basics." Though there are still some mellotrons etc on Beggars.

Leonard Keringer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>..his musical contributions to the
Stones were important but minimal....

Why don't you finish smoking whatever you're smokin', take a long nap, and when you wake up, listen to 12x5, England's Newest Hitmakers, NOW!, Out of Our Heads, December's Children, Aftermath, Flowers, Between the Buttons, TSMR, BB, the London Years Compilations, and Hot Rocks II to assess how 'minimal' Brian's contributions were. When you have done all that, then you may start making some sense and stop talking out of your ass.

cc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bill credits billy preston for the bass line to
> "Miss You," I believe.
>
>he also said john lennon was killed on december 10th

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leonard Keringer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >..his musical contributions to the
> Stones were important but minimal....
>
> Why don't you finish smoking whatever you're
> smokin', take a long nap, and when you wake up,
> listen to 12x5, England's Newest Hitmakers, NOW!,
> Out of Our Heads, December's Children, Aftermath,
> Flowers, Between the Buttons, TSMR, BB, the London
> Years Compilations, and Hot Rocks II to assess how
> 'minimal' Brian's contributions were. When you
> have done all that, then you may start making some
> sense and stop talking out of your ass.
>
>
> pull yur head out your bunghole and tell me who wrote all of those songs.......without those basic song structures, B.Jones would've had nothing to add his bits to

whenthewhipcomesdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bill credits billy preston for the bass line
> to
> > "Miss You," I believe.
> >
> >he also said john lennon was killed on
> december 10th

Well, he was there for the writing of the bass line... unless you're implying something earth-shattering? ;-)

kahoosier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ummmm....Glass we seem to be butting heads a bit
> lately...but since EOMS i think is is an arguable
> point that Keith has been the primary songwriter.
> It is well documented that for many cuts in the
> IORR and GHS sessions, he was not even there. This
> is one of Mick Taylor's primary complaints, that
> he co-wrote many of the songs on these albums, and
> never got credit. Some Girls is often seen as a
> Jagger statement, co-credited by contractual
> agreement. Even with ABB there is arguement about
> how much Keith co-wrote, and the best percentage
> given to him is a 50-50 cut. I do not think that
> there is any point in history where even Keith,
> who loves his image and loves to brag, would valim
> he was the PRIMARY songwriter.There are even
> classic cuts attributed to the KR legend, such as
> Brown Sugar, that in interviews Keith will admit
> are wriiten by MJ and he imprints his style. Keith
> has also admitted that he wrote Beast of Burden as
> a vieled apology to Mick for being absent and a
> detriment for so long.
>
> I do agree though that even in his worst years, he
> was more vital to the survival of the group then
> Brian had ebcome near the end.


Perhaps "primary is a bit of an overstatment but I do not think by much.

Everyone knows he did not write BS--no argument there.

On Some Girls, the 2 songs he clearly wrote--Beast of Burden and Shattered are imo the 2 best tunes, so to me that stands out more.

On GHS, he wrote Angie--actually I think he wrote most of it just going through the tunes quickly in my head. Except for Hide Your Love--which, I must admit is tied with Winter and Silver Train as my faves--those 3 tracks are as good as anything they did for me.

IORR--yeah ok, I see your point on this one. We know he did not write IORR (which I never really loved, though obviously it is an anthem) and Time Waits For No One. IYRWTBMF--I could see as not being his. Luxury, DLS, IYCRM, S&C, all sound like him to me.

This would be a great debate ... if it were still 1969. Get over it!

Glass Slide Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On GHS, he wrote Angie--actually I think he wrote
> most of it just going through the tunes quickly in
> my head. Except for Hide Your Love--which, I must
> admit is tied with Winter and Silver Train as my
> faves--those 3 tracks are as good as anything they
> did for me.
>
> IORR--yeah ok, I see your point on this one. We
> know he did not write IORR (which I never really
> loved, though obviously it is an anthem) and Time
> Waits For No One. IYRWTBMF--I could see as not
> being his. Luxury, DLS, IYCRM, S&C, all sound
> like him to me.
>

I believe GHS was noted at the time for having very little keith on it, and with the cover art, it was another occasion for predicting the stones' end. Possibly this is because people assumed he didn't write "Angie." But thinking quickly, the only other song I'd be sure he wrote is the first one and "Coming Down Again." He's playing on "@#$%&"--which was a breath of relief to contemporary listeners, from what I understand--but I imagine mick wrote it.

Isn't mick playing piano on "S&C," as with "Hide Your Love"? This suggests he "wrote" them in a studio jam.

I think Mick defintely wrote HYL--Keith is not even on it.

Star Star--that's a tough one! If only cause I find it hard to discount Keith on a Chuck Berry inspired tune.

S&C--is that really Mick on piano? Wow, If that is true! I always assumed that to be either Ian Stewart or Nicky Hopkins.

I will not get into the “Brian wrote Satisfaction” etc. argument. But what is indisputable is that there was no way in hell that Brian could EVER get a visa to tour in the U.S. due to his numerous drug convictions (remember, Mick and Keith's sentences were over turned and reduced to the U.S. equivalent of “misdemeanors”, while Brian had numerous felony convictions) For this reason alone, Brian was an albatross and had to go.

Jed Clever Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will not get into the “Brian wrote Satisfaction”
> etc. argument. But what is indisputable is that
> there was no way in hell that Brian could EVER get
> a visa to tour in the U.S. due to his numerous
> drug convictions (remember, Mick and Keith's
> sentences were over turned and reduced to the U.S.
> equivalent of “misdemeanors”, while Brian had
> numerous felony convictions) For this reason
> alone, Brian was an albatross and had to go.


All true. Add to that he was not much of a guitar player at all, MT in the wngs and the whole thing becomes a no-brainer.

Didn't Glyn Johns say Mick and Keith carried him as long as they could and wasn't Jimmy Miller (his contributions are MASSIVELY underrated) shocked at his abilities or lack thereof?

Leonard Keringer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > pull yur head out your
> bunghole and tell me who wrote all of those
> songs.......without those basic song structures,
> B.Jones would've had nothing to add his bits to
>
>
>Well, those basic song structures would not have become unique, monster hits without Brian's influence.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leonard Keringer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > >
> > > pull yur head out your
> > bunghole and tell me who wrote all of those
> > songs.......without those basic song
> structures,
> > B.Jones would've had nothing to add his bits
> to
> >
> >
> >Well, those basic song structures would not
> have become unique, monster hits without Brian's
> influence.
>
>
>

i'm blowin' raspberries at ya




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-02-24 04:16 by Leonard Keringer.

Glass Slide Wrote:
----------------------------------------------
>
> Didn't Glyn Johns say Mick and Keith carried him
> as long as they could and wasn't Jimmy Miller (his
> contributions are MASSIVELY underrated) shocked at
> his abilities or lack thereof?


I never read Jimmy Miller saying that about Brian. If anything, Miller worked to get Brian more involved with BB despite Mick and Keith's wishes, and was appreciative of Brian's efforts. From what I have read, Miller was a fan of Brian . . .

Leonard Keringer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'm blowin' raspberries at ya
>
>

Oooh, you're turning me on . . .
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 02/24/06 04:16 by
> Leonard Keringer.