I am curious: what songs make up Side 3 of ABB?
When I say that Whip is like @#$%& I mean that it is the type song that is decpetively simple and only the Stones really know the formula. Doesn't matter if the songs themslevs are similar or not. What they have in common is that they are Stonestubnes that could not be by anyone else.
See, I don't really like Voodoo. Never have. I think the Stones alone could have made that one better. They listened too much to Don was there. VL comes off as tol calculated to me. SW might be my least fave Stones album but I prefer it in that aspect over VL.
SG I think stands on it;s own anyway, but on top of that it has a very spoecial place with me because I was there in NYC when it came out and I can never forget how it ruled the city in that summer. It was a VERY good vibe!

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Jumping Kent, opinions are like arseholes.. and blah blah.. but now you wen't too far, my friend!!!

"Miss You" - the band has never succeed to repeat that swing of the original studio version live. With "Start Me Up" the last true hit by the band. Without this song the Stones wouldn't have existed a year longer. Their most important song (and single) since "Jumpin' Jack Flash".

"The Whip" - The ancient art of weaving; kicked by the punks, The Stones get the new groove, like playing very first time ever. SOOO FRESH and SOO NAASTY.

"Imagination" - a old soul number interpreted through a punk attitude. And with unique Stones flavor. Original!

"Some Girls" - Jagger doing a camp of Dylan and the band playing like the bastards of Muddy Waters. Lyrically best Jagger since "Sympathy".

"Lies" - FAST FAST FAST - perhaps too fast (trying to punk a bit too manufactured way both in musically and lyrically) for my taste, but who cares. Let's rock and shift the side!

Over all, best Stones since the D-side of Exile, and with its flip-side never to be surpassed since that! It's that fresh groove that makes Some Girls album so special. The new re-invented band feeling + GREAT individual songs. ABB is a far cry from that (even though the best since Voodoo Lounge). Just imagine if Jagger might have had the power and creativity of "Shattered" or "Some Girls" (and not that of "Indian Girl") while writing "Sweet Neo-Con"... But C'mon, where's the level of original songs like "Faraway Eyes", "Before They Make Me Run", "Beast Of Burden", etc. on ABB? "Big Mistake"? "Infamy"? "Streets of Love"?

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-01-03 15:31 by Doxa.

But C'mon, where's the level of original songs like "Faraway Eyes", "Before They Make Me Run", "Beast Of Burden", etc. on ABB? "Big Mistake"? "Infamy"? "Streets of Love"?

To me this is the answer:They don´t work like a BAND.Just listen voodoo outtakes.
And compare this to actual album,voodoo lounge.
You can hear a BAND playing.Not MICk or keith trying to find some ideas.
To me ABB is their worst album.Theres no band,its just a product.

If I start counting studio albums of the post-Exile period there are 12 of them (I'm leaving out 'Stripped'although it's one of the best thing they ever did in my opinion). If I had to choose the three most favourite - although I donot like choosing - ABB would be there for sure.Starting in 1964, ABB would make it among the ten most favourite albums. I fully agree with JumpingKentFlash's 'composing eras' point of view as well as that the period 89-05 is a good one.

As good as many tunes on ABB are they are missing that originality. Even "Laugh I nearly died" one of the bestm, really is just vintage Jagger. I can hear "Feel on Baby", "Heaven" and "Continental Drift" in that song.
Soul Survivor and Torn and Frayed could only come from Exile, Heartbreaker, Winter only from GHS, Hot Stuff and Negrita only from B&B, respectable, Whip and Shattered only from SG. Even ER and DW have THEIR songs and sound.
But ABB I can refernce back to previous albums. LIND is vintage UC to me. The Side 1 rockers taste of DW.
Actually while the Keith tunes are regarded as the wweakest cuts , they are still the most original. "I mean "Infamy" like it or not ir pretty f8cking unique.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

The lack of that originality, like ChelseaDrugstore mentioned, is the weak point of ABB. The whole musical point of reference is the band's own history. Even the blues number is a sort of reminscant of how the band once played the blues. There are good songs, but most of the fascination is based on having a deja vu -feeling. It really does not add anything to their musical legacy. Just another album of the same sort. In that sense past albums like "Goats Head Soap", "Black&BLue" or "Emotional Rescue", mediocre albums from their creative days, do belong to a different sort, and are artistically much more interesting, and because of that, will be listened in years to come, while albums like Voodoo Lounge and ABB are to be forgotten (and I hope, with their endless DVDs of their past-89/94? live performances) . In this sense also a musical mistake like Satanic Majesties will always have admirers and be a part of their creative history, and will find new fans.

When Voodoo Lounge was released, it was the first Stones album ever that caused me a feeling that "I have heard all of this already". A collection good, familiar-sounding songs (I suppose people in 70's might have the same kind of idea after hearing IORR, their first 'retro' album). Because of that feeling I have never - after the first excitment - bothered to listen that album very much. Perhaps a good album for a person who has never heard many of its past recordings. Like an indication that the band plays these sort of music. With ABB I get the same feeling. There are many nice songs, nice rockers, familiar stuff, down-to-earth-arrangements, just four - or three of them or whatever - but already now, after 6 months of listen, I really don't find anything 'special' in that album, nothing to really 'grasp' or to be turned on (like I usually do with Stones stuff)... Like with Voodoo Lounge, when the album ends, there is not really any musical ideas left in my mind to be remembered. Both are good albums, but I don't know what to say.. they just don't make the difference. They just sound as the band trying to sound as the Rolling Stones, minimizing all the artistic efforts and risks, like someone said earlier (that is wise, as BTB showed, when they try something 'new' they seem to fail big time). One could ask, what a hec people ask from them, sixty year old somethings. A fair question, but it's their own fault that the expectations and the criteria is so high! A new Rolling Stones record is always a happening and to be compared to their glory past!

But the truth is that the band has lost its muse long ago. The creative spark is gone. But just by force of their natural talent and routine the band still make good records. I think they could do an album quality of VL or ABB every second six months if they wouldn't be so lazy or knowing that it is not worth of it. It really doesn't ask much effort for the band to do a song like "Back Of My MInd" or "Rough Justice". It's autopilot for them artistically. And I suppose quite boring more than once or twice in a decade or something.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-01-03 17:01 by Doxa.

Poor boys...! If they try out something original it's "embarassing"; if they try to rock - like on A Bigger Bang - it's a "deja vu"...

I think A Bigger Bang is a great rock album by The Rolling Stones, and I'm very happy with it!

"got to be worked on
don't have no bark nor bite..."

"Poor boys...! If they try out something original it's "embarassing"; if they try to rock - like on A Bigger Bang - it's a "deja vu"... "

Yep, ain't it hard to be a living legend? But seriously, I don't think the options are so limited. I think being "original" you don't need to be "embarassing", I don't see songs like "Gimme Shelter", or "Angie" or "Miss You" are embarrassing at all. Nor I don't think to "rock" is always a matter of deja vu... the way Stones rock on songs like "She Said Yeah", "Rocks Off" or "Respectable" are quite original versions of the same "theme" (if there is any).

But if the options are like you quessed, ain't that a sign of a lack of inspiration?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-01-03 17:29 by Doxa.

Keith Richards recently (in the past few years) said something to the effect of: "I don't care whether or not you like the album. Voodoo Lounge is where we're at now. If it takes you 10 years to understand it, good, but it's where we're at now."
Or something like that.
I had not listened to VL for a long time, and then after the press conference this May I pulled it out and listened to it all summer until ABB came out. I always enjoyed it, but only really appreciated it recently. I've had many experiences like that with the Stones and other groups. Maybe ABB will take some time to grow on certain people.

I agree with Doxa, but the problem is: when you've been around for more than 40 years, what does it mean to be original?
Moon is Up was pretty original on Voodoo Lounge. And so was Emotional Rescue.
I don't think we need the Stones to be more original, but just to go back to something more sophisticated than the autopilot of what they do now.

I keep reading about the "big four." We all have our favorites. When I think of the big four I guess my mind conjures up images of a sticky, bleeding beggar on Main Street. What about you guys?

Lukester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I keep reading about the "big four." We all have
> our favorites. When I think of the big four I
> guess my mind conjures up images of a sticky,
> bleeding beggar on Main Street. What about you
> guys?


i think of: a bleedin' finger banquet on sticky street

In my opinion, Rain Fall Down is the song that keeps me coming back to ABB. I find it addicting. The other songs are good, especially when played loud, but something about that guitar riff in Rain Fall Down really gets me hooked. PS. I loved seeing and hearing them perform that song live in Atlanta in October.

Great quote by marco, "To me ABB is their worst album. Theres no band, its just a product." That says is it all. I like the album plenty, but that is basically why it will never be their best. Its not a band playing together. PS- I'm getting sick of Rough Justice. Its starting to make me sick.

"You'll be studying history and you'll be down the gym. And I'll be down the pub, probably playing pool and drinking."

I'll revisit it in a few years much like BTB. I didn't really care for that album until two years ago. I heard it again and I liked it. ABB is good, but it is not instantly likeable. Some songs are, but as a whole it is not that great. TOO MUCH FILLER. Just because a CD can hold so many minutes doesn't mean you have to use them all. I would have been happy with 10 or 11 great songs because that would've been very possible. Think of BB, LIB, SF, SG. Yes Exile was two albums, but EVERYTHING on Exile is great. ABB is too bloated.

The whole re-visiting thing is crucial to the final grading of an album. How does it hold up? Do4s it get better? Or is the big muff gone and it is now a bit boring? Have thew times passed it by?
What I think is just superbly fantasticly great by the Stones is that their albums only get better. And if not better they certainly never get worse or trivial. How many Stones albums have only found their way into lore with the passing of years? ALL the later 70's stuff is now almost up there with the Big Four. UC and even DW get better abd better. Satanic and Buttons are revered as masterpieces; as well they should.
To me ONLY Voodoo and Steel Wheels have not matured well. SW has revealed it self more and more as an 80's timepiece;basically just a ticket to get back 'in' the game. VL, we have talked about much here. many like it. One thing I have noticed (and I hate to generalize) and this is not meant in any form as a criticism, but that it is mainly the newer, younger fans that like VL.
B2B on the other hand I think is a very good album. It is aging well. there were many hits on it. Strong material; daring ideas and production. I want to say that B2B shows them in a better light than ABB but then ....that is like comparing apples and oranges.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

I'm so sick of people saying stuff like "ABB is a novelty-- in a few years you won't listen to it". How the hell do you know that? I don't think it's a novelty, it's an album I liked right off the bat, and those kinds of albums tend to stick. Usually if something sounds like shit right away, chances are it will still sound like shit after 50 listens, unless you go by familiarity, and it starts 'growing' on you. I believe there is no such thing as album "growers". You can start liking Britney Spears if you force yourself to listen to her long enough, and it becomes familiar. That is what the "grower" myth is.
I know that there is such a thing as different tastes, and this is why I'm sure that some people legitimately dislike ABB, but I find that many people must have listened to ABB for the first time with too much baggage, therefore they can only like it if it "grows" on them, or they can't get themselves to like it at all.

I am absolutely convinced that most people have nostalgic/memory based reasons why they adore the Big 4 so much as opposed to anything else. For those of us who have listened to all Stones albums at pretty much the same time, there is no memories, no outside distractions to judge the albums in any way other than the MUSIC. For that reason, most of the "bad" Stones albums aren't actually bad at all. ALso for that reason, I don't have any problems placing Some Girls far ahead of Let it Bleed.

Some Girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am absolutely convinced that most people have
> nostalgic/memory based reasons why they adore the
> Big 4 so much as opposed to anything else. For
> those of us who have listened to all Stones albums
> at pretty much the same time, there is no
> memories, no outside distractions to judge the
> albums in any way other than the MUSIC. For that
> reason, most of the "bad" Stones albums aren't
> actually bad at all. ALso for that reason, I don't
> have any problems placing Some Girls far ahead of
> Let it Bleed.

I wasn't even born when the "Big 4" were released. My fav memories of the stones come from ER, TY, SL, and UC. I LOVE LOVE LOVE those albums. Those albums are where my nostalgia lays. The Big 4 are the Big 4 for a reason. I only discovered those around 1990. Musically they are superior and define the Stones for me mainly because my love of music is based in the blues. Some albums DO grow on you and some are instantly listenable and likeable. Some albums have songs that you just can't wait to hear again. Or the whole album at that. ABB is not one of them, save for a couple of songs.

IMO

to me ABB is a very good Stones album! it´s basic stones, stones pure, not trying new experimential ways like they did on B2B (which some of you appreciate for this fact, but i prefer the more traditional stones approach of for example AB. it think if you take into consideration that they are over 60 years old, you only can love ABB for it´s being full of energy and raw power!

Doxa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jumping Kent, opinions are like arseholes.. and
> blah blah.. but now you wen't too far, my
> friend!!!
>
> "Miss You" - the band has never succeed to repeat
> that swing of the original studio version live.
> With "Start Me Up" the last true hit by the band.
> Without this song the Stones wouldn't have existed
> a year longer. Their most important song (and
> single) since "Jumpin' Jack Flash".
>
> "The Whip" - The ancient art of weaving; kicked by
> the punks, The Stones get the new groove, like
> playing very first time ever. SOOO FRESH and SOO
> NAASTY.
>
> "Imagination" - a old soul number interpreted
> through a punk attitude. And with unique Stones
> flavor. Original!
>
> "Some Girls" - Jagger doing a camp of Dylan and
> the band playing like the bastards of Muddy
> Waters. Lyrically best Jagger since "Sympathy".
>
> "Lies" - FAST FAST FAST - perhaps too fast (trying
> to punk a bit too manufactured way both in
> musically and lyrically) for my taste, but who
> cares. Let's rock and shift the side!
>
> Over all, best Stones since the D-side of Exile,
> and with its flip-side never to be surpassed since
> that! It's that fresh groove that makes Some Girls
> album so special. The new re-invented band feeling
> + GREAT individual songs. ABB is a far cry from
> that (even though the best since Voodoo Lounge).
> Just imagine if Jagger might have had the power
> and creativity of "Shattered" or "Some Girls" (and
> not that of "Indian Girl") while writing "Sweet
> Neo-Con"... But C'mon, where's the level of
> original songs like "Faraway Eyes", "Before They
> Make Me Run", "Beast Of Burden", etc. on ABB? "Big
> Mistake"? "Infamy"? "Streets of Love"?
>
> - Doxa


I don't think so. I prefer ABB. And by the way: I think Sweet Neocon is cool. Reminds me of those early eighties dance-like tracks they did. This is just nastier.

JumpingKentFlash

Doxa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> "Miss You" - the band has never succeed to repeat
> that swing of the original studio version live.
> With "Start Me Up" the last true hit by the band.
> Without this song the Stones wouldn't have existed
> a year longer. Their most important song (and
> single) since "Jumpin' Jack Flash".


If you're talking about SMU, I could be tempted to say yes. But Miss You......Not a RS song at all, Keith isn't there. Though Bill is playing like god.

Forgive my sins dear friends, but would you be so kind to allow this humble member to say that ABB sucks?

This needs to be further developped.

I don´t think that ABB will grow on me,besides its allready forgotten,except
here,within our little community.
When album grows on me,it means that i can listen to,5-20years from now.
I know now,ABB is that one for me.While voodoo and BTB still are.
In my opinion,they don´t work like a band,in the studio,and live performaces are
mostly autopilot allready.Even they´ve done fantastic 43years,i think,they didn´t do ENOUGH for this album.to me,stones are a band,they work together.just'like they used to.It wasn´t mick and keith just writing ideas.
the BAND was in the studio.Now,they were not,and you can hear it.It was mick&keith(sometimes),then charlie and ronnie just added few bits here and there.
Songs were NOT played and rehearsed it studio.And thats why ABB doesn´t sound
finished.From Some girls,or even from voodoo lounge,you can hear,that songs were
actually played many times in the studio,before finishing them to album.
It another matter you like it or not,but if you can´t play together in the studio.You might as well call it quits.

ABB is obviously a terrific album, but it's not even close to match the excellence of the untouchable Big 4. That's my humble view on this matter anyway.

I think ABB is a good change from their recent albums but I think Don Was is a poor fit. They need a new Jimmy Miller at the helm, someone w/ a more organic approach. The Stones still have ability but they need the right finishing touch. They also need a new marketing approach.

They need Bill Wyman back.

Get Bill Wyman for some sessions--who cares if he can't tour.

how any one can compare steel wheels,dirty work or even voodo to abb amazes me.they all have great songs ,but abb is light years ahead,its such a refreshingly charged record,true jaggers the standout but isn't he always.

john scialfa

Better than Sticky Fingers? No turds on that disc.