Maybe a dumb question. In mid eighties CBS reissued the Atlantic catalogue on vinyl. I know LUXURY and TORN AND FRAYED were cut short on the cd but what about the vinyl counterparts? Of course I threw away my old albums when cds came out and have really been successful in getting most of the Atlantic catalogue. I did get a mint CBS vinyl if IORR album but haven’t opened it yet. I also don’t think CBS did gatefold covers for GHS or Black and Blue. Any sound quality differences you audiophiles pick up on?

A) The plural of vinyl is “vinyl” not “vinyls”.

A “record” is what you play. “Vinyl” is the material they are made with.

Somewhere, someone (probably some deejay with poor literacy) started calling records “vinyls”. The kids, whose parents had long ago abandoned playing records, had no other model and picked up and perpetuated this bastardized terminology. Thankfully, Mick got it right and called his show Vinyl, not Vinyls.

As a Record Shop owner of nearly 20 years, I have observed the development of this aberrant slang. When someone asks where our “vinyls” are, I ask them what type of “records” they are looking for and generally try to be pleasant and helpful, but in the back of my mind I am aware that I am dealing with a record collector novice, dilletante, or poseur.

As to your question about sound fidelity, that isn’t dumb, but I don’t have an answer for you.

Divinyls were an Australian band .........



ROCKMAN

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Javadave
A) The plural of vinyl is “vinyl” not “vinyls”.

A “record” is what you play. “Vinyl” is the material they are made with.

Somewhere, someone (probably some deejay with poor literacy) started calling records “vinyls”. The kids, whose parents had long ago abandoned playing records, had no other model and picked up and perpetuated this bastardized terminology. Thankfully, Mick got it right and called his show Vinyl, not Vinyls.

As a Record Shop owner of nearly 20 years, I have observed the development of this aberrant slang. When someone asks where our “vinyls” are, I ask them what type of “records” they are looking for and generally try to be pleasant and helpful, but in the back of my mind I am aware that I am dealing with a record collector novice, dilletante, or poseur.

As to your question about sound fidelity, that isn’t dumb, but I don’t have an answer for you.

Then there's the evolution of the term LP - it hasn't strictly meant a vinyl album for decades now. Format has no relevance, it's simply another form of "album", studio or live. Same with EP and even single.

In the mid-1980s into the mid-1990s magazine ads etc for an album would say CD, LP and cassette.

A decade later, journalists smartly figured out a Long Player is what it is no matter the format but some people are hung up on LP meaning a vinyl album.

You should say 'The vinyls are back there swimming with the fishes'.

Quote
Javadave
A) The plural of vinyl is “vinyl” not “vinyls”.

A “record” is what you play. “Vinyl” is the material they are made with.

Somewhere, someone (probably some deejay with poor literacy) started calling records “vinyls”. The kids, whose parents had long ago abandoned playing records, had no other model and picked up and perpetuated this bastardized terminology. Thankfully, Mick got it right and called his show Vinyl, not Vinyls.

As a Record Shop owner of nearly 20 years, I have observed the development of this aberrant slang. When someone asks where our “vinyls” are, I ask them what type of “records” they are looking for and generally try to be pleasant and helpful, but in the back of my mind I am aware that I am dealing with a record collector novice, dilletante, or poseur.

As to your question about sound fidelity, that isn’t dumb, but I don’t have an answer for you.

Language is alive. No mater how the purists insist. It is since thousands of years and will always be.
And to be honest. This is very reassuring.

I don't think I've seen a conversation on here go off topic so quickly, ever.

To attempt to answer bashlets original question, my understanding is that the CBS vinyl reissues from the 80s were in fact a step down in fidelity. I haven't done a side by side test and while I also have a few I've subsequently picked up at bargain basement prices, I haven't opened them.

I kept my Atlantic albums in the 80s (and still have them) but did start buying the CBS CDs and for me, noticed I didn't very much like the sound. The Virgin CDs in 94(?) were a revelation by comparison.

From what I recall, the "sound" of Dirty Work on vinyl was pretty good, notwithstanding the content, though Steel Wheels just had this glossy over-produced sound which fit with the times but doesn't hold up as well. I believe Undercover was the last Atlantic issue.

Agreed, they skimped on the packaging for those 80s reissues as well. I didn't realize they cut Luxury and Torn & Frayed short on the CD.

I'm not sure the rational with that, they should have been easily able to fit both within the CD.

Thank you.

I do not want to step in vinyl/records discussion... But, apparently, here we have another 'fake news'.

Torn and Fried was not shortened on CD.
CBS CD 1986 4:17 07-Torn And Frayed
Virgin CD 1994 4:18 07-Torn And Frayed
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 4:19 07-Torn And Frayed
That +- 1 sec difference is associated with different gaps on the CD (purely an issue of cue points and the settings of the Laser Beam Recorder that was used for glass master preparation). And yes, the tracks on those CDs are a bit off sync with flat transfer running a notch slower than the others. But the track was not shortened in mastering.

For Luxury
CBS CD 1986 4:31 06-Luxury (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 5:01 06-Luxury
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 5:03 06-Luxury
I believe Luxury was originally 4:30 on vinyl. So CBS CD just reproduced what was on the tape.

There were two other tracks on IORR that were affected by modifications at the final stage of production to fit the length of the vinyl record (according to the booklet of Japanese SHM-SACD prepared from the flat transfer of the original master tape). These are:

Time Waits For No One
CBS CD 1986 6:40 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 6:38 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 6:48 05-Time Waits For No One

Fingerprint File
CBS CD 1986 6:37 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Virgin CD 1994 6:33 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 7:01 10-Fingerprint File (original playback speed)

Modifications to TWFNO and FF were done on the final stage of production of the vinyl/records. All vinyl and CDs originated from those tapes have fade out for TWFNO and sped up for FF. The exception for TWFNO is that original vinyl compilation from 1979 'Time Waits For No One'

PS. treaclefingers, handful of Virgin CDs are simply 'louder clones' of CBS discs. In many cases that revelation is illusive . Just play CBS CD louder .

Quote
ironbelly
I do not want to step in vinyl/records discussion... But, apparently, here we have another 'fake news'.

Torn and Fried was not shortened on CD.
CBS CD 1986 4:17 07-Torn And Frayed
Virgin CD 1994 4:18 07-Torn And Frayed
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 4:19 07-Torn And Frayed
That +- 1 sec difference is associated with different gaps on the CD (purely an issue of cue points and the settings of the Laser Beam Recorder that was used for glass master preparation). And yes, the tracks on those CDs are a bit off sync with flat transfer running a notch slower than the others. But the track was not shortened in mastering.

For Luxury
CBS CD 1986 4:31 06-Luxury (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 5:01 06-Luxury
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 5:03 06-Luxury
I believe Luxury was originally 4:30 on vinyl. So CBS CD just reproduced what was on the tape.

There were two other tracks on IORR that were affected by modifications at the final stage of production to fit the length of the vinyl record (according to the booklet of Japanese SHM-SACD prepared from the flat transfer of the original master tape). These are:

Time Waits For No One
CBS CD 1986 6:40 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 6:38 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 6:48 05-Time Waits For No One

Fingerprint File
CBS CD 1986 6:37 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Virgin CD 1994 6:33 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 7:01 10-Fingerprint File (original playback speed)

Modifications to TWFNO and FF were done on the final stage of production of the vinyl/records. All vinyl and CDs originated from those tapes have fade out for TWFNO and sped up for FF. The exception for TWFNO is that original vinyl compilation from 1979 'Time Waits For No One'

PS. treaclefingers, handful of Virgin CDs are simply 'louder clones' of CBS discs. In many cases that revelation is illusive . Just play CBS CD louder .

Ha ha...I'm old.

What the heck are we talking about postage stamps again for?!

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
ironbelly
I do not want to step in vinyl/records discussion... But, apparently, here we have another 'fake news'.

Torn and Fried was not shortened on CD.
CBS CD 1986 4:17 07-Torn And Frayed
Virgin CD 1994 4:18 07-Torn And Frayed
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 4:19 07-Torn And Frayed
That +- 1 sec difference is associated with different gaps on the CD (purely an issue of cue points and the settings of the Laser Beam Recorder that was used for glass master preparation). And yes, the tracks on those CDs are a bit off sync with flat transfer running a notch slower than the others. But the track was not shortened in mastering.

For Luxury
CBS CD 1986 4:31 06-Luxury (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 5:01 06-Luxury
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 5:03 06-Luxury
I believe Luxury was originally 4:30 on vinyl. So CBS CD just reproduced what was on the tape.

There were two other tracks on IORR that were affected by modifications at the final stage of production to fit the length of the vinyl record (according to the booklet of Japanese SHM-SACD prepared from the flat transfer of the original master tape). These are:

Time Waits For No One
CBS CD 1986 6:40 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Virgin CD 1994 6:38 05-Time Waits For No One (faded in mastering)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 6:48 05-Time Waits For No One

Fingerprint File
CBS CD 1986 6:37 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Virgin CD 1994 6:33 10-Fingerprint File (sped up)
Japanese only flat transfer 2011 from original master tape (SACD or SHM-CD) 7:01 10-Fingerprint File (original playback speed)

Modifications to TWFNO and FF were done on the final stage of production of the vinyl/records. All vinyl and CDs originated from those tapes have fade out for TWFNO and sped up for FF. The exception for TWFNO is that original vinyl compilation from 1979 'Time Waits For No One'

PS. treaclefingers, handful of Virgin CDs are simply 'louder clones' of CBS discs. In many cases that revelation is illusive . Just play CBS CD louder .

Ha ha...I'm old.

What the heck are we talking about postage stamps again for?!

You forget, obviously - it has to do with return to sender, address unknown. Or you take forty times to lick them.

Which is kinda weird. They don't taste that good.

Generally speaking, the best sounding albums are those from EMI-Electrola and EMI Japan. In comparison, the CBS releases from late 80s/early 90s are not as good.
Maybe, this also depends on thinner vinyl, but I’d leave the last word to audiophiles.

Generally speaking, the best sounding albums are those from EMI-Electrola and EMI Japan. In comparison, the CBS releases from late 80s/early 90s are not as good.
Maybe, this also depends on thinner vinyl, but I’d leave the last word to audiophiles.

Quote
treaclefingers
I don't think I've seen a conversation on here go off topic so quickly, ever.

To attempt to answer bashlets original question, my understanding is that the CBS vinyl reissues from the 80s were in fact a step down in fidelity. I haven't done a side by side test and while I also have a few I've subsequently picked up at bargain basement prices, I haven't opened them.

I kept my Atlantic albums in the 80s (and still have them) but did start buying the CBS CDs and for me, noticed I didn't very much like the sound. The Virgin CDs in 94(?) were a revelation by comparison.

From what I recall, the "sound" of Dirty Work on vinyl was pretty good, notwithstanding the content, though Steel Wheels just had this glossy over-produced sound which fit with the times but doesn't hold up as well. I believe Undercover was the last Atlantic issue.

Agreed, they skimped on the packaging for those 80s reissues as well. I didn't realize they cut Luxury and Torn & Frayed short on the CD.

I'm not sure the rational with that, they should have been easily able to fit both within the CD.

The CBS stuff on the whole doesn't sound as good as the original Atlantic releases. The EMI vinyl from the immediate post Atlantic period isn't too clever either.

One way to describe the sound is that it sounds like the vinyl was mastered from a Cassette tape !

[OK, slight exaggeration, but the EMI and CBS period vinyl tends lack life, depth and any real musical dynamics when compared the original Atlantic releases. ]

At the risk of confusing things further:

I THINK - the 1986 CBS CD's and vinyl LP's contain versions of "Luxury" (from It's Only Rock and Roll) and "Slave" (from Tattoo You) that are the same length as previous vinyl versions, but shorter than all later CD versions (post Virgin 1994 reissues) and some (but not all) later vinyl LP versions.

I believe that the CBS vinyl and CD releases from the mid to late-80's were cut from the same masters. There were a bunch of tell-tale signs - the one I remember clearly is that the 1986 CBS vinyl LP and CD versions of Exile on Main Street contain the same sound "drop out" on "Sweet Virginia". It stands out like a sore thumb, immediately prior to the first chorus, it sounds like an engineer just lowered the volume from 10 to 6. I don't think that they sound bad. In fact, I think that the CBS LP's sound pretty good. However, in my opinion they don't sound as good as the original 70's UK pressings.

Someone stated that the 94 Virgin CD's were louder clones of the CBS CD's, but that would appear to be incorrect. For example, the sound drop out on "Sweet Virginia" was fixed, and as mentioned above, "Luxury" and "Slave" are longer versions on the 94 CD's. So they can't be clones.

Quote
drbryant
At the risk of confusing things further:

I THINK - the 1986 CBS CD's and vinyl LP's contain versions of "Luxury" (from It's Only Rock and Roll) and "Slave" (from Tattoo You) that are the same length as previous vinyl versions, but shorter than all later CD versions (post Virgin 1994 reissues) and some (but not all) later vinyl LP versions.

I believe that the CBS vinyl and CD releases from the mid to late-80's were cut from the same masters. There were a bunch of tell-tale signs - the one I remember clearly is that the 1986 CBS vinyl LP and CD versions of Exile on Main Street contain the same sound "drop out" on "Sweet Virginia". It stands out like a sore thumb, immediately prior to the first chorus, it sounds like an engineer just lowered the volume from 10 to 6. I don't think that they sound bad. In fact, I think that the CBS LP's sound pretty good. However, in my opinion they don't sound as good as the original 70's UK pressings.

Someone stated that the 94 Virgin CD's were louder clones of the CBS CD's, but that would appear to be incorrect. For example, the sound drop out on "Sweet Virginia" was fixed, and as mentioned above, "Luxury" and "Slave" are longer versions on the 94 CD's. So they can't be clones.

That was me and a couple of other guys on SHMF. In fact the statement was that some Virgin CDs are louder clones to CBS discs. Namely:

Albums Emotional Rescue (1980), Undercover (1983), Dirty Work (1986) and Steel Wheels (1989) issued by Virgin originated from tape transfers that were used in 1986 for production of CBS CDs. Virgin discs are in perfect sync with their CBS counterparts and share the same mix and equalization profiles. As if CBS CDs (or equalized digital production masters prepared by CBS) were used as a starting point for Virgin discs. The difference is mainly in the loudness. Some kind of soft limiter (and, probably, noise shaping) was applied to the CBS digital material to produce Virgin CDs, but hardly more. New digital tape transfers were not made. Virgin CDs of these albums can be described as louder clones of 1986 CBS discs. A downside of soft limiter application is that the loudest peaks were ‘shaved off’ (got flat tops). This is a characteristic feature for all Virgin CDs of The Rolling Stones. Those peaks retain the proper shape on CBS CDs.

Virgin CD Goats Head Soup (1973) also originated from the tape transfer used by CBS. It stays in sync with CBS CD counterpart. However, for this album not only soft limiting was used. The album was re-equalized to some extent. Compared to CBS CD the bass below 200 Hz was slightly reduced, while the mid-range in the vicinity of 2 kHz was enhanced. Also, a kind of noise reduction was applied. All tracks on Virgin CD have a sharp roll-off in frequencies above 10 kHz with respect to CBS disc.

Except for two tracks (Respectable and Shattered) Some Girls (1978) Virgin CD originated from the tape transfer used by CBS too. Virgin CD (but the two tracks mentioned above) stays in perfect sync with CBS disc. Here the situation is like that for Goats Head Soup (1973), but more changes were made. Also, it seems that for this album the work was done on a track-by-track basis. The soft limiter was used for all tracks, but other moves were not identical. For example, a kind of de-essing filter was applied for Miss You. Some Girls (song) got a bass bust (especially by the end of the track). For Far Away Eyes the balance was altered between channels. I.e., the right channel became slightly louder than the left for the second part of the song, while the left was louder in the beginning. For Beast Of Burden likely only soft limiter was used. But not uniformly throughout the song duration. The first 30 seconds of the song were made a bit louder than the rest as if the limiter got adjusted in the process. So, eight out of ten tracks on the album are a mixed bag in terms of equalization, volume and balance adjustments, but still, undoubtedly originated from the tape transfer that was used previously by CBS. Respectable and Shattered came from completely different tape transfer. They are out of sync with their CBS CD counterparts and mastered the whole new way.

Sticky Fingers (1971) came from a new tape transfer and represents a new remaster but for one track - I Got The Blues. That one originated from tape transfer used by CBS. However, it is louder and equalized differently with respect to the counterpart from CBS CD.

Exile On Main St. (1972), It’s Only Rock’NRoll (1974), Black And Blue (1976) and Tattoo You (1981) are new tape transfers, different from those used by CBS (for better or for worse). Only for these albums (and for Sticky Fingers (1971) minus one track) extensive remastering was done.

Goats Head Soup (1973) and Some Girls (1978) are mixed cases with strong ties to the tape transfers used by CBS.

Emotional Rescue (1980), Undercover (1983), Dirty Work (1986) and Steel Wheels (1989) can be described as louder clones of CBS CDs. They stay in perfect sync with CBS discs and share the same mix and equalization but are a bit louder.

PS. And we always forget about Wanna Hold You from Undercover. A short version was used for EMI CD from 1983 (and Japanese flat transfer from 2011) while the long for all other CD editions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-10-07 13:50 by ironbelly.

Hi Ironbelly

thank you very much for your highly informative post.

I have a question for you: what do you mean by:
"That was me and a couple of other guys on SHMF. " ?
You worked there ?

Quote
djgab
Hi Ironbelly

thank you very much for your highly informative post.

I have a question for you: what do you mean by:
"That was me and a couple of other guys on SHMF. " ?
You worked there ?

I meant me and a couple of other guys from Steve Hoffman Music Forums came to the similar conclusions following analysis of the digital files from different CDs of The Rolling Stones. I do not work on Steve Hoffman Music Forums (SHMF). That is just a forum. It is not MFSL .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-10-07 21:06 by ironbelly.

Quote
1963luca0
Generally speaking, the best sounding albums are those from EMI-Electrola and EMI Japan. In comparison, the CBS releases from late 80s/early 90s are not as good.
Maybe, this also depends on thinner vinyl, but I’d leave the last word to audiophiles.

Yep, the German Electrola pressings from the EMI era were very good...but shouldn't be confused with the EMI badged product more typically found in UK record shops at the time, which typically weren't very good.

Thanks Ironbelly for the explanation.
I got lost with the acronyms

Whose differences?