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Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: peipin ()
Date: June 14, 2024 17:11

See last document of this....
?????
[www.flickr.com]

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: steffialicia ()
Date: June 14, 2024 17:38

I try not to think about it.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: June 14, 2024 17:47

Quote
steffialicia
I try not to think about it.

She was a true artist and innovator and there is no denying that her movies were groundbreaking.

Mathijs

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Date: June 14, 2024 17:54




Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: bobo ()
Date: June 14, 2024 18:13

Quote
steffialicia
I try not to think about it.

Does it matter?

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: June 14, 2024 18:38

Very strange... the band waited for Franco to croak to officially play in Spain yet Mick flirted with this pos.
Maybe we can blame that on the trend of the times "nazi chic" which produced works by Guy Peellaert (the famous "Stones in SS uniforms" painting) or the shocker movie "The Night Porter".

Anyway it's not Mick's finest hour.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: June 14, 2024 19:45

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
steffialicia
I try not to think about it.

She was a true artist and innovator and there is no denying that her movies were groundbreaking.

Mathijs

Agree 100% with Mathijs and I am 100% antifascist

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: runaway ()
Date: June 14, 2024 22:33

Her movies were groundbraking and the Stones in uniforms painting was probably inspired by Brian wearing this uniform

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: steffialicia ()
Date: June 14, 2024 22:42

Quote
bobo
Quote
steffialicia
I try not to think about it.

Does it matter?

It does to me and others I'm sure.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Massimo68 ()
Date: June 14, 2024 22:59

15 years ago :

[iorr.org]

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: steffialicia ()
Date: June 15, 2024 00:09

I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-06-15 00:12 by steffialicia.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: June 15, 2024 00:29

Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

Nor should you. She was a pos. I suspect Mick flirted with the fascist attributes popular in the 70s, a decade ignorant of history and the Holocaust and what led to it.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: RollingFreak ()
Date: June 15, 2024 00:44

Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

As a Jewish person and someone who went into film, going to film school, and enjoying learning about the history of film: Leni Riefenstahl is a complicated topic lol. She is immeasurably influence in the history of film. The content used in those films is incredibly problematic, anti semitic, and glorifies one of the worst (if not THE worst) atrocities in the history of the world. I don't think her contributions should be erased, and I appreciate that I was taught them, even if the content is offensive. I think it should always be presented with historical context, because if anything I think its helpful to continue to see it (graphic and terrible as it is) so that its not forgotten. We can't let history be lost and (for better or worse) this is excellent footage to show this horrific event.

No judgement, but I'm surprised Jewish people don't know Leni. I guess my Hebrew School education is more updated than my parents, but she was a known person in my education about the Holocaust. I guess because the films we were shown were hers, so they go into who she was and her responsibility. Her plea later that "she (we) didn't know" is definitely a stretch. Her heavy involvement, and clearly being a smart person, she didn't not know what subject of her documentaries.

As for Jagger posing with her. I don't know, as a Jew a shrug my shoulders. He may not really know who she is. She is an important film figure so maybe he wanted to meet her for that reason (and obviously is aware of Triumph Of The Will). Who knows, but I don't really blame him.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: peipin ()
Date: June 15, 2024 09:39

I posted this photo because I was really surprised... In no case was my intention to denounce Jagger as a fascist, I simply believe that he didn't really know who he was really posing with...

@mitiés
peppin

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: June 15, 2024 09:45

Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

100% agree with what you have written.

Captain Corella

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: June 15, 2024 09:51

Jagger was 30 when this photo was taken. He is an LSE dropout - of course he knew who Leni Riefenstahl was. I don't blame him though for having a conversation with her.
Ethics and moral is a difficult subject to discuss, especially on a site where we are not really allowed to do that, so I won't go into that.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: MadMax ()
Date: June 15, 2024 11:40

Quote
steffialicia
Quote
bobo
Quote
steffialicia
I try not to think about it.

Does it matter?

It does to me and others I'm sure.

So waddya reckon about Keith wearing the Third Reich's Mutter Kreuz around his neck during the 1973 autumn Tour?

Or Brian dressing up as an SS Sturmbahnführer in the 60's?

Or Keith wearing the Obergruppenführer t-shirt in 1989?

There are loads of examples, all tongue in cheek!smileys with beer

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: June 15, 2024 14:33

Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

Reading this makes me sad. Anybody who “worked” in Germany during the nazi regime is a nazi? My dad (not Jewish) was picked from the streets of Amsterdam aged 19, put on a train to Germany (couldn’t even contact his parents, leaving them desperate) and (had to) work in Germany 6 days a week for 2 years. He suffered no hunger). He walked home (more than 600 kilometers, with some earned money in his pocket which was taken off him at the border) as soon as the war was over.
In my “beautiful” country he was blamed for collaborating with the Germans … ???
He was not a nazi, neither was Leni. She was a tool used by the nazis, just like my dad. Circumstances sometimes make it difficult to refuse, but should my dad have killed himself? Let’s look in the mirror deeply …

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Christiaan ()
Date: June 15, 2024 15:25

Quote
georgie48
Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

Reading this makes me sad. Anybody who “worked” in Germany during the nazi regime is a nazi? My dad (not Jewish) was picked from the streets of Amsterdam aged 19, put on a train to Germany (couldn’t even contact his parents, leaving them desperate) and (had to) work in Germany 6 days a week for 2 years. He suffered no hunger). He walked home (more than 600 kilometers, with some earned money in his pocket which was taken off him at the border) as soon as the war was over.
In my “beautiful” country he was blamed for collaborating with the Germans … ???
He was not a nazi, neither was Leni. She was a tool used by the nazis, just like my dad. Circumstances sometimes make it difficult to refuse, but should my dad have killed himself? Let’s look in the mirror deeply …

The comparison to your father and Leni Riefenstahl is wrong in my eyes. Your father did not go to Germany in free will (I have to believe you as you wrote above) he was Dutch and as you wrote not by free will going to Deutschland. She was German and made her movies already before the war for the Nazi’s. As I always understand she made her movies not under pressure of the Nazi’s. But it may have to do something with the times. If she didn’t made those movies, she would not have other opportunities to get work in her business.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Marhsall ()
Date: June 15, 2024 21:54

Would loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: June 15, 2024 22:18

Quote
georgie48

He was not a nazi, neither was Leni. She was a tool used by the nazis, just like my dad.
I think your Dad was caught up in the terrible whirlwind of History but Leni knew perfectly what she was doing = she was a pure Nazi.
But much like Albert Speer, she never wore a military uniform, never carried a weapon, and therefore she was more or less let go free after 1945.

Me I would have hung her and Speer too.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: June 15, 2024 22:35

Quote
dcba
Quote
georgie48

He was not a nazi, neither was Leni. She was a tool used by the nazis, just like my dad.
I think your Dad was caught up in the terrible whirlwind of History but Leni knew perfectly what she was doing = she was a pure Nazi.
But much like Albert Speer, she never wore a military uniform, never carried a weapon, and therefore she was more or less let go free after 1945.

Me I would have hung her and Speer too.

This thread is overtly political and you have no actual idea what you're talking about, as does everyone on this thread, it's pure speculation and I ask you to just stop.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: slewan ()
Date: June 15, 2024 23:07

Whatever you think about Riefenstahl as an artist/filmmaker. It's in bad taste to have your photo taken with her.
Apart from that, filming nazi propaganda movies is a crime but it's not a hanging matter. Speer belongs to a completely different category. He himself expected to be sentenced to death in Nuremberg because he knew what he had done. His great luck was that his judges did not realize how much he was involved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-06-15 23:33 by slewan.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: June 15, 2024 23:22

Quote
treaclefingers
you have no actual idea what you're talking about, as does everyone on this thread

Speer in action :
[en.wikipedia.org]-Dora_concentration_camp

"By late 1943, production had started. On 10 December, Albert Speer and his staff visited the tunnels, observing the terrible conditions and finding them littered with corpses. Some members of Speer's staff were so shocked that they had to take an extra period of leave.

A week later, Speer wrote to Kammler, congratulating him on his success "in transforming the underground installation ... from its raw condition two months ago into a factory, which has no equal in Europe and which is unsurpassed even when measured against American standards. I take this opportunity to express my appreciation for this really unique achievement and to ask you also in future to support Herr Degenkolb in this wonderful way."

Yeah the rope for Albert!

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: slewan ()
Date: June 15, 2024 23:31

A lof of people don't realize that Speer was minister for armaments and ammunition (from 1942 to the very end)

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: June 16, 2024 00:05

i just can't square the man who wrote the lyrics to heartbreaker expressing such anger at police brutally and had so many close black, jewish (some of whom were holocaust survivors or the children of them) and gay friends and idols with someone who would believe in this kind of stuff

i mean mick literally plays a drag queen in a movie about the persucution of gay people by the germans

i would hope and suspect that if this was brought up to him now he would feel some shame about the whole incident altogether

by the way why is this thread still open i would have assumed bv would have closed it by now

and i hope he does soon as this is definitely inappropriate and distasteful to have a thread connecting mick to this sh-t based on a photo and quote from half a century ago let alone discussing this topic at all on this site



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-06-16 00:30 by ProfessorWolf.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: FeelslikeaGhost ()
Date: June 16, 2024 00:22

Other than this one photo, I really haven't heard too much about them being actual friends. Despite this, one friendship doesn't undo all the positive influence Mick has had on society in regards to sexuality, gender and the advocacy for marginalized individuals. It's pretty clear from his lyrics that he's anti-fascist.

Also as Professor Wolf noted, if he truly agreed with her he wouldn't have played a drag queen in the movie 'Bent'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-06-16 00:23 by FeelslikeaGhost.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: June 16, 2024 01:29

Quote
dcba
Quote
treaclefingers
you have no actual idea what you're talking about, as does everyone on this thread

Speer in action :
[en.wikipedia.org]-Dora_concentration_camp

"By late 1943, production had started. On 10 December, Albert Speer and his staff visited the tunnels, observing the terrible conditions and finding them littered with corpses. Some members of Speer's staff were so shocked that they had to take an extra period of leave.

A week later, Speer wrote to Kammler, congratulating him on his success "in transforming the underground installation ... from its raw condition two months ago into a factory, which has no equal in Europe and which is unsurpassed even when measured against American standards. I take this opportunity to express my appreciation for this really unique achievement and to ask you also in future to support Herr Degenkolb in this wonderful way."

Yeah the rope for Albert!

What the hell is this, self immolation? You should probably start deleting your posts, and I'll delete my quotes of them if you do.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: June 16, 2024 02:36

Quote
RollingFreak
Quote
steffialicia
I just did some additional reading about this person. There is little justice in this world that she lived to such a ripe, old age. Glad to learn she had a miserable death. If Mick truly understood this woman's background, shame on him. I had always hoped that in his relative youth at the time, he didn't truly understand what she was. I may get thrown off IORR but as the granddaughter of a holocaust era survivor, who lost eight siblings at Auschwitz, I won't keep quiet when it comes to nazis, which is what she was.

As a Jewish person and someone who went into film, going to film school, and enjoying learning about the history of film: Leni Riefenstahl is a complicated topic lol. She is immeasurably influence in the history of film. The content used in those films is incredibly problematic, anti semitic, and glorifies one of the worst (if not THE worst) atrocities in the history of the world. I don't think her contributions should be erased, and I appreciate that I was taught them, even if the content is offensive. I think it should always be presented with historical context, because if anything I think its helpful to continue to see it (graphic and terrible as it is) so that its not forgotten. We can't let history be lost and (for better or worse) this is excellent footage to show this horrific event.

No judgement, but I'm surprised Jewish people don't know Leni. I guess my Hebrew School education is more updated than my parents, but she was a known person in my education about the Holocaust. I guess because the films we were shown were hers, so they go into who she was and her responsibility. Her plea later that "she (we) didn't know" is definitely a stretch. Her heavy involvement, and clearly being a smart person, she didn't not know what subject of her documentaries.

As for Jagger posing with her. I don't know, as a Jew a shrug my shoulders. He may not really know who she is. She is an important film figure so maybe he wanted to meet her for that reason (and obviously is aware of Triumph Of The Will). Who knows, but I don't really blame him.

Perfectly put. And we live in times where many would love to erase history and what it is irreducibly contradictory in it. Erase songs, erase part of books, part of movies, pictures.

I also saw Riefenstahl movies in film studies classes, and hope that will remains the same, because, like it or not, they are relevant to the history of art and also precisely because they are historical documents, immensely useful to have a better understanding and knowledge of nazism and its horror.

It is easy to put in historical perspective that photo (and her photos of Mick and Bianca). The rock star and jetset beautiful couple and the important controversial figure that, at the time, was working as a photographer. Nothing shameful there and no need to erase anything.

Re: Leni Riefenstahl. and JAGGER 1974 ?????
Posted by: Marhsall ()
Date: June 16, 2024 05:41

[iorr.org]

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"

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