Some interesting posts from "El" on the LARS msg board, not including the entire discussion:


I'm gonna assume you're an open-minded, intelligent guy who, like all of us here, were turned on when we first heard the great music of the Rolling Stones.

Therefore, I urge you to read Trevor Hobley's post some threads back about the blatant miscarriage of justice Brian Jones receieved when he was alive, and still does, to this day, by the very people who, without him, would NEVER have received worldwide success, fame, and riches beyond their wildest dreams. You'll also find a murder cover-up that stinks to the highest levels. Mr. Hobley has some very serious proof and has spent an awful lot of time and money to hopefully bring the truth to light

It is a fact, documented by those who were there (and have nothing to gain by denying it) that no matter WHAT you may read to the contrary: Brian Jones started the band, NAMED them, promoted them, got them thier first manager (Oldham) got them OUT of a potentially damaging situation so that they could SIGN thier first record deal, arranged all thier music, and in spite of what is documented legally, he wrote almost all their early music, (not lyrics) including the signature riffs to thier biggest hits. Not Keith. Brian did. Early "live" videos and TV shows bear this out by watching the two guitarists' hands.

I was in the music industry for years, was a former record producer and a signed recording artist and was privvy to some very awful inside information concerning not only the Stones, but several other bands at the time. You may not like what you hear on this board, but it's the truth, documented by people who were there.

Although it seems that we bash Keith a lot here on this site, I ask you this: If I punched you in the face repeatedly until you were bloody and unconscious and couldn't fight back,. WOULDN'T YOUR GOOD FRIENDS PULL ME OFF YOU and say "cut the shit already?" And punch me back?

The good people here don't hate Mick, Keith or the Stones (although opinions regarding thier current and past music can vary greatly) but there IS something we all agree upon that we DO hate.

Hypocrisy.

I urge you to read through the information here, and see how Brian was taken advantage of almost from day one with the Stones, the band he started and formed. Mick and Keith both admitted he taught them a great deal on thier respective insrtuments (guitar and harmonica) and although Brian was not a lead singer, he was classically trained in vocal harmony, and taught MIck a thing or two about vocals.

And THIS may surprise you: Mick learned his stage moves from BRIAN, as documented by no less a super star than GINGER BAKER,the drummer of CREAM, in Laura Jackson's book about Brian Jones called,"Golden Stone".

As far as Brian being drunk, drugged, high and junked out, sure, he was @#$%& up - like every OTHER rock musician in the 60's, including myself! ...so let me refer to the ten years of Keith Richards' own heroin addiction where Mick Jagger had to take up the slack as Keith was barely a functioning human being, let alone lead guitarist for the world's greatest rock and roll band.

It may interest you to know that he was so out of it during the "Exile" sessions in France, that he couldn't even bother to get it up, "forcing" his live-in girl friend Anita Pallenberg to find her sexual thrills elsewhere. He probably never even knew this. How I know, I'm not telling. But, it IS the God's honest truth. Hey, look - We all have our frailties. I'm not judging, simply reporting facts. But for Keith to bash Brian incessantly for being so "out of it" when he did exactly the same thing right after Brian died, just plain sucks in my book.

My father once told me to never speak ill of the dead, as they can't defend themselves. To be a complete hypocrite on top of that, well, that's why Keith gets what he deserves in this forum.

John Lennon had his share of problems too,(including heroin addiction), but the Beatles always spoke highly of him, both before and after his death, even if they disagreed or had arguments, and they had plenty. They respected thier leader, yet the Stones give zero respect (with the possible exception of Bill Wyman) to their fallen leader and colleague, and now more so than ever. Quite honestly, when you know the TRUE facts, it's disgusting. I was the world's biggest Keith Richards fan, even looked somewaht like him in '68. But after finding out so many of these true facts, and the constant MIS-truths being perpetrated about Brian Jones, I was appalled.

Finally, we're actually NOT a bunch of nasty, psychotic, lying, hypocritical creeps on this board.

But the Rolling Stones are. Research the facts, it bears this out.

--------------


I decided to bump this up to the top with all the discussion going on lately , I wrote in a previous thread that the name "Brian Jones' is still poison in the music industry and have been personally advised to forget it - even after all this time . Deb asked me to elaborate further.

Allen Klein & Co. keeps a stranglehold on the rights he owns to the early Rolling Stones catalog. To the point where it makes NO economic sense, and this is quite unusual since Mr. Klein is NOT the type of person to EVER turn down any opportunity to make money. I'll explain.

In the music industry, anyone, anywhere, at any time can record their own version of anyone else's published song ever written, provided, of course, they simply inform the owner of the song of thier intentions, and request what is called a "voluntary license". Naturally, they must pay the owner the statuatory fees for each record sold, and submit the proper documentation quarterly (along with the check!). This is COMMON PRACTICE in the music industry, and most copyright owners are very happy to see their songs covered by a new artist because it gives the old song a new lease on life, and a boost on the old checkbook!

Voluntary license is granted almost 99/9% of the time whenever it is asked.

However, the copyright owner does have the right to REFUSE the voluntary licence. But, since as I stated earlier, U.S. Copyright law states that anyone can record any copywritten song, then the person wishing to record the song must comply with Section 115 of the Copyright Act and obtain a "compulsory license" agreement. This forces the copyright owner to allow the new artist to record the song.

But, the provisions of the Compulsory License Agreement are so onerous, and the accounting nearly impossible, most people just give up. Like Stephen Wooley, whose movie would have benefited greatly from the use of the songs. He also had the budge, but chose not to bother.

Why would Klein not grant the rights? Certainly inclusion of those songs would have benefited ABKCO as more people might have piuchased the early Stones songs or singles collection from his own company.

Or is there something to hide?

Like the name "Rolling Stones" that Brian Jones (or more accurately the Estate of Brian Jones, a viable legal entity, no doubt controlled by Brian's parents) may still own; or the unusual circumstances surrounding Brian's death, which ABKCO CERTAINLY doesn't want brought up and publicized); or the $100,000 1969 settlement that was never paid, and what would bank INTEREST be till 2005: or the fact that it may surface that Brian Jones actually DID write some songs, that's a lot of $$$ in unpaid royalites AND compounded interest to 2005; best case scenario , we're looking at hundreds of millions of dollars to be paid out; worst case, a possible murder indictment of people who are still alive.

AND, the collapse of several multi billion dollar corporations through possible scandal - look at Enron, World Com = are ABKCO and R.S. Limited any different these days?

I also got word through a friend who is a business associate of Jimmy Iovine, probably the most powerful person in the music industry today, to just "not bother".

Iovine wouldn't elaborate, but simply wanted nothing to do with "old news". I should point out that Jimmy Iovine never had any business dealings with the Rolling Stones or ABKCO and has no ax to grind, or money at stake.

But the plot thickens. Doxa, don't ask me for any more names. The content of this post should disprove any doubts of my veracity.


--------

The people here on this board accept my reasonings because A) it's the truth - they can't argue with logic, like most intelligent people and C) they've either read about it themsleves and its been coroborated elsewhere, or, they WILL read about it soon when more facts surface.

As far as my "inner stories", I don't reveal names of people or sources because they are still alive, I still speak with some of them on occasion, they may threaten to sue me, (and as to who's lying or not, it matters little - BUT I personally DO NOT have the financial means to spend thousands of dollars on attorneys' fees just to prove that yes, I was not lying in an Internet forum site) or worse. My record royalties ran out a long time ago.

Upon investigation, I found out the name "Brian Jones" is poison in the music industry - even today - and I have personally been advised to "forget it", and yes, I have been warned. I will continue to post anonymously because I like living. I still talk to very powerful people in the industry today and beleive it or not, there are people who just want the spectre of Brian Jones to just go away. By posting anonymously, I have more freedom to share some facts with the people here and learn more about Brian myself. I assumed that my knowledge and reasonings would be sufficient for most people to accept my posts. I commend Trevor Hobley on the incredible work he is doing to uncover the TRUTH about Brian Jones, and yes, he is a much more courageous man than I, something I freely admit, and hold him in the utmost HIGHEST admiration for it.

As far as my credentials, you probably own records that I'm playing on, but, it really doesn't mean anything to you if think I'm simply lying about that as well. However, some of the very technical and anecdotal information I've shared here on this board really does prove that I've done a hell of a lot more than just work in small project studios and garage bands, if you'll go back and read them. Certain things are gained by actually being in the music industry, that most people outside the business or only in semi-professional and garage bands will never see. I don't denigrate them, or look down upon that faction of the business, ever. I was there once, too. What's more I no longer make my living in the music industry, as I've stated here repeatedly.

I don't disrespect your opinion about playing and music and your preference of players, because it is just an opinion and all opinions are subjective. Some people hated Mozart and Beethoven in thier time. But everyone here is given the respect (it IS a forum) and listened to with an open mind. For some reason, you have decided to give me none. Maybe I touched a nerve. Sorry, but I'll continue to post facts that can be or eventually will be backed up in the media. You'll note on some of my posts when I'm not sure of something I'll say "I'm not sure, but..."

You seem to think that because I've garnered a whole hell of a lot of info from working behind the scenes that I'm full of shit, 'cause I won't name names. Read my posts. They make sense, they come from experience and deduction. Sure, I'll throw in a dig at Mick and Keith now and then but it's really just for amusement, EXCEPT when they lie so much about Brian, even to the point of contradicting themselves from their very own earlier quotes.

What's more, I've said in my last post, sure, Brian could really be an @#$%&. Find a Stones forum where a die-hard Keith Richards fan would be open-minded enough about his "hero" to say the same! I couldn't, so far. Even when I read about, (another DOCUMENTED fact) Keith being handed a vintage Fender Telecaster guitar to autograph, but he steals the guitar, tells his driver to take off and says, "@#$%& you kid, you can buy another Guitar, but this is KEITH RICHARDS". now maybe this is just my opinion, but, hey, THAT'S AN @#$%&!

Finally, and quite honestly, I've never been the kind of guy who turns the other cheek. Attack me and I'll hit you back hard. That's how you survive in the music industry. Ask Mick and Keith, they'll tell you. Brian wasn't that type of guy. Even Keith said, referring to the 1967 drug busts, "yeah, there's one (Brian) that'll break if we {the cops} keep on him, but me and Mick, well maybe they thought, we're just old lads."

But I'll also be happy to admit when I'm wrong, and I welcome the opportunity to hear out facts that disprove what I say. Haven't seen 'em so far. You have, in essence, called me a liar, but have shown me nothing concrete except more opinions to back up your claims.

So Doxa, if you want to beleive I'm totally full of shit, you can. That's your perogative. This is an open forum. You, like me, like everyone else here, is entitled to your opinion. But once again, don't call me a liar, a cult fanatic (or whatever) deep throat, or make other personal attacks on me. They serve no purpose to help enlighten the world about Brian Jones, and the slings and arrows he's suffered in his life.

You think I'm wrong about any facts I've presented?

Show me. I'll happily report, "I stand corrected" anytime.
---------------

Firstly, I beleive my post about my ex-actress friend, who was quite famous, and I'm sorry I really can't name her, spoke strictly off the cuff and matter of factly, stating "well he WROTE all their music...." nd trailed off. Now of course neither myself nor anyone else can verify the truth within these statements; however, although it is true that Brian was thier early arranger and musical director (this of course was confirmed by many people including Keith Richards, who, referring to "I Wanna Be Your Man" simply stated, "Brian MADE that record") Also, photos of the band form Gus Coral's book show Brian with sheet music and arrangements for the session, and he seems very much to be the leader - coupled with later things like "Ruby Tuesday", and "Paint It Black", all lend credence to the fact that Brian did indeed write music for the Stones. No, of course, I certainly DO NOT believe that M + K never wrote a thing, and Brian wrote evry note they ever played, yes, of course that is preposterous. If it seemed like that was my belief in my earlier posts, then let me clarify that here.

Of course not. their own music bears this out. The FIVE Rolling Stones is what made their sound.

I personally beleive that Brian wrote things in the studio, both by jamming and fooling around with different passages, riffs, patterns, on the various instruments laying around, and that Mick and Keith quite often had tape rolling all throughout the sessions (a common practice when making a record - so no ideas are ever lost)
and sorted through the ideas later on to develop them into a song.

Maybe not always. But a lot.

Judging from history, and Bill Wyman's clainm that he wrote the "Jumpin Jack Flash" riff - a key part to the song - bears this out. (The lyrics were supposedly about Keith's gardener, Jack Dwyer)

While my actress friend WAS at session with Brian, perhaps to her it SEEMED like he wrote all the music - given that she was NOT a musician, and knew very little about the art of professional recording. As a young girl, it must have been quite overwhelming.

My own intentions were NOT to mislead anyone here, nor "create" truths by insinuation and stories, but, rather lend credence to the argument that Brian Jones was, indeed, capable of writing music, (he did write, arrange AND produce a complete movie score, something Mick and Keith never did) and yes, indeed some of his original ideas were recorded by the Rolling Stones, even though he was not officially credited.

Thanks for your complienents on my interpretation of Dylan's "ballad of a Thin Man". But, as i said, strictly conjecture on my part - I think my argument is plausible - but again, there's no hard cold facts here on THAT one. It just seemed to make sense to me.

Regarding my meeting Keith Richards, no he was not mean, or nasty to me at all - nor was he shrinking from me as if I was a rabid fan - rather,I was introduced as a colleague, and Keith Richards seemed to respect that - but quite honestly he was so semi-comatose that very little of what he said made any sense. I left because I was embarrassed and didn't want to do or say anything that might hurt my career. But I don't think Keith heard much of anything that night - he was ridiculously wasted. But hey, we've all been there, done that - I certainly am not one to call the kettle black - but I brought up that instance because he really has no business slagging Brian off for getting so out of it when he was much worse throught the seventies and early eighties. The hypocrisy of the situation bothers me more than anything.


LAstly I always welcome opposing viewpoints, and certainly am flexible enough to change my mind if I'm proven wrong. I respect everyone's opinion, and only ask the same.

Sincerely,


El

So whats your point?

Nice fillibuster! Yeah, so what's your point??

The point seems to be: Brian Jones was a junkie and Keith Richards was a junkie and they bot happened to be in the Rolling Stones. We know junkies like alcoholics can't keep their mouths shut and they can't get their peckers up and they are whiners. There's nothing new about that.

But what about that movie score Brian apparently wrote (A DEGREE OF MURDER) - why is it nowhere available? It can't have been too impressing I'd say. Anyone please tell me if there's a link to it.

Nice that you made a sum of Miss Us post. I didnt bother to read that much, your post was shorter and to the point. Good work!

i was under the impression brian had been dead a LOOOOOOOOOONG time

I just want to add that I just copied and pasted "El"'s post...nothing against Doxa....I actually agree with one of Doxa's posts on LARS, that it's abit immature to take jabs at the stones music post-60s, regardless of the wrongs done to Brian. I love all the eras-- BJ, MT & RW.

To FUC--- well DOM must have impressed some people; it won an award at Cannes at the time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-09 03:06 by Miss U..

Oh, I forgot to add, Brian wrote Some Girls in 1964.

And Bill wrote JJF in 1937.

Vintage Tele...don't think so

Brian Jones wasn't a man, he was a punk. It's well documented how he treated Pat Andrews and his son.

Find the thread that contains the mp3s for "Little Boy Blue and the Blueboys" and you'll discover where the Rolling Stones began.

Pat and their son want the investigation reopened and justice for Brian. Pat is very supportive of the BJ fan club. Brian wasn't a saint, but neither is keith or any of you.

Well its hard to be a saint in the city.

Especially in Sin City.

"Brian turned out all right at the end; it is what preyed on Brian, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men."

How sinful are you?:

[web.tickle.com]

There will be some truth in this looooooong thread, but Brian's death is such a difficult subject. Opinions opinions opinions...

3096 words
14176 syllables
Is this a record or not?





Let it rock!

El wrote facts, not opinions.

You think thats bad...Did you here what the Monkeys did to poor Peter Tork!

Brian missed gigs. You simply cannot do that. It forced The Stones to perform as a quartet for several shows on the fall '64 US tour, for example.

This outraged Mick and Keith, as it should have......they were deadly serious about making it big in those days.

Brian called in sick to work...and more then once. And Mick and Keith never forgave him for that.

Thanks, ohcarol, for being a smartass! I like it! Peter Tork, what a talent!!!

Miss U. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> El wrote facts, not opinions.


I'm gonna assume you're an open-minded, intelligent guy who, like all of us here, were turned on when we first heard the great music of the Rolling Stones.

ASSUME??? OPINION

Therefore, I urge you to read Trevor Hobley's post some threads back about the blatant miscarriage of justice Brian Jones receieved when he was alive,

OPINION



the blatant miscarriage of justice Brian Jones receieved when he was alive, and still does, to this day, by the very people who, without him, would NEVER have received worldwide success, fame, and riches beyond their wildest dreams.

NEVER? OPINION


You'll also find a murder cover-up that stinks to the highest levels.

OPINION



Mr. Hobley has some very serious proof

OPINION


But for Keith to bash Brian incessantly for being so "out of it" when he did exactly the same thing right after Brian died, just plain sucks in my book.

"in my book"? that would be an OPINION



My father once told me to never speak ill of the dead, as they can't defend themselves. To be a complete hypocrite on top of that, well, that's why Keith gets what he deserves in this forum.

In your OPINION

Quite honestly, when you know the TRUE facts, it's disgusting.

that's your OPINION

I was the world's biggest Keith Richards fan,

OPINION

Finally, we're actually NOT a bunch of nasty, psychotic, lying, hypocritical creeps on this board.

OPINION


But the Rolling Stones are.

VERY LAME OPINION

Research the facts, it bears this out.


WHAT FACTS???????????



I wrote in a previous thread that the name "Brian Jones' is still poison in the music industry

OPINION




the name "Rolling Stones" that Brian Jones (or more accurately the Estate of Brian Jones, a viable legal entity, no doubt controlled by Brian's parents) may still own

MAY???? OPINION



or the unusual circumstances surrounding Brian's death, which ABKCO CERTAINLY doesn't want brought up and publicized)

but you offer no proof so that would be an OPINION


I also got word through a friend who is a business associate of Jimmy Iovine, probably the most powerful person in the music industry today, to just "not bother".

Word of mouth? sounds like OPINION


Jimmy Iovine, probably the most powerful person in the music industry today


probably? is that an OPINION

But the plot thickens. Doxa, don't ask me for any more names. The content of this post should disprove any doubts of my veracity.

it does or it should, which? if "should" then that' your OPINION
--------

The people here on this board accept my reasonings

misguided OPINION


My record royalties ran out a long time ago.


FINALLY: FACT

I assumed that my knowledge and reasonings would be sufficient for most people to accept my posts.

you assumed??? OPINION


As far as my credentials, you probably own records that I'm playing on,

probably not. MISGUIDED OPINION



I don't disrespect your opinion about playing and music and your preference of players, because it is just an opinion and all opinions are subjective.

OPINION ON OPINIONS


Read my posts. They make sense, they come from experience and deduction.

But not facts. OPINION


Sure, I'll throw in a dig at Mick and Keith now and then but it's really just for amusement,

OPINION ON WHAT OPINION is AMUSING


Brian could really be an @#$%&.

FACT


Find a Stones forum where a die-hard Keith Richards fan would be open-minded enough about his "hero" to say the same!

KEITH COULD REALLY BE AN @#$%&.

I couldn't, so far.

YOU JUST DID.

Finally, and quite honestly, I've never been the kind of guy who turns the other cheek. Attack me and I'll hit you back hard. That's how you survive in the music industry. Ask Mick and Keith, they'll tell you. Brian wasn't that type of guy.

FACT: BRIAN HIT WOMEN, DID THEY TURN THE OTHER CHEEK



Firstly, I beleive my post about my ex-actress friend, who was quite famous, and I'm sorry I really can't name her, spoke strictly off the cuff and matter of factly, stating "well he WROTE all their music...." nd trailed off. Now of course neither myself nor anyone else can verify the truth within these statements;

CAN'T VERIFY THE TRUTH??? OPINION


I personally beleive that Brian wrote things in the studio,


Who cares what you personally believe? That's just your OPINION


Judging from history, and Bill Wyman's clainm that he wrote the "Jumpin Jack Flash" riff - a key part to the song - bears this out. (The lyrics were supposedly about Keith's gardener, Jack Dwyer)

Judging from history? That would be an OPINION dressed up as a fact.

While my actress friend WAS at session with Brian, perhaps to her it SEEMED like he wrote all the music - given that she was NOT a musician, and knew very little about the art of professional recording. As a young girl, it must have been quite overwhelming.

OPINION UPON OPINION UPON OPINION, a regular bullshit sandwich


Thanks for your complienents on my interpretation of Dylan's "ballad of a Thin Man". But, as i said, strictly conjecture on my part

Strictly conjecture? Well that would be an OPINION


- I think my argument is plausible - but again, there's no hard cold facts here on THAT one. It just seemed to make sense to me.

It just seemed to make sense to me: Dictionary definition of OPINION


I respect everyone's opinion, and only ask the same.

Sincerely,


El


Sorry bud, opinions are like @#$%&, everybody's got one, and yours stinks.


Miss U, good to see you're not longer living in the past.

I hope the investigation gains momentum and finally some sort of closure, and it's interesting (IF true) that there exists a supposed tape of Thorogood's confession. Brian and Stu were there at the conception, no question, but Mick and Keith were Little Boy Blues in 1961, Mick & Charlie w/ Alexis' group in early '62. Brian was nearly 2 years older than Keith, who would have been 18 at the first Stones gig and 19 on the debut (IBC) recordings w/ the complete lineup (March 1963) - so B's vision and passion (and ambition) were indeed crucial during the group's early development. His intuitive musicality added alternately scorching (Wanna Be Yr Man) to ghostly (No Expectations) slide, splashes of color as well as blues and greys thanks to his contributions on everthing from recorder (Ruby T), sax, sitar, keyboards, marimbas, and remarkably orchestral, Moroccan-influenced riffs & arabesques on mellotron (We Love You, 2000 Light Years, Stray Cat - compare his ability to find what's just RIGHT on the brand new instrument to the fey sounds the Moody Blues and others managed to come up with). Brian was crucial to the band and its collective personality for several years on several levels, including extra-musical. Escorting ice queen Nico to Montery, he intro'd his friend Hendrix to the US (where Keith's GF Linda Keith first saw him & hooked him up w/ Chas Chandler less than a year earlier) And he did a fine job scoring "A Degree Of Murder." He was complex and erratic, difficult of course, and he unintentionally added to his marginalization within the Stones. Like Keith, & Mick, he could be an a**hole. But J/R (even allowing for occasional uncredited contributions from BJ, MT, BW and sometimes credited ones from RW) are one of the 2 greatest songwriting teams of the past half century. And again, it's crucial to seperate great art from the petty, miserly, cruel, self-centered, drug-or-alcohol-addicted, politically incorrect, unbearable humans that are many great artists.

Oh boy, what a "story". So far I can see nothing really valid. We all can be @#$%& sometimes and I am sure that only a small minority of fans - if any -still believe Mick and Keith were angels. And Brian was no angel too. So what's the deal? Concerning the murder - present the facts, present a detailed investigation, otherwise: SHUT UP! I'm totally fed up with all those accusations and suggestions. PRESENT THE FACTS - and if you are not able to present them now, SHUT UP UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO DO SO.

All these big-music-business-against-Brian-Jones-conspiracy stories (I am pretty sure that not many people in today's music biz even know who Brian was...) remind me pretty much of the great big Princess Diana or the great big September 11 conspiracies. Interesting to read, but in the end there was always a big bubble that disappeared after an initial period of public interest. Only to appear again after a certain period of time...quite regularly. There's always someone who keeps the flame alive, right?

"The Brian Jones conspiracy" is no different. El's post makes me think that the sheer size of posts like his barely covers the fact that there's effectively little valid content.

I'd have to disagree with you, Camper. Most of what El wrote is facts, and his/her personal experiences which he has been open enough to share, on condition of anonymity to protect his/her own safety. The point El made was that there has been an awful misjustice to Brian from the stones which has yet to be righted. And you would be the first die hard KR fan I've ever seen call him an @#$%&...but then are you a die hard keith fan?? The fact that you wrote:

EL: As far as my credentials, you probably own records that I'm playing on,

Camper: probably not. MISGUIDED OPINION

Why would you assume that? Maybe because you'd like to dismiss El and everything he/she wrote as bogus?


KR is a hypocrite who has repeatedly bashed Brian while in the band, and over the course of the last 35 years since his death, while Brian cannot defend himself. Another hypocrisy is that Keith many times was so far gone he couldn't even make it down to his OWN BASEMENT at Nellcote to record EOMS, yet writes Brian off as too drugged for the band. Another hypocrisy from those who want to label Brian as a woman beater (yes he did, and Anita hit him too) is that Keith also beat Anita...does anyone ever express outcry over that? And Mick Taylor has stated when he joined the band, he couldn't believe how bad they were. Which lends further credence that Brian was involved in writing many songs prior to that point. When MT joined he also got little credit for his songwriting, and the mt era stones sounded dramatically different than the Brian era. Since Brian's death, the stones relied on talented associates, like Jimmy Miller, Jack Nitsche, and other studio musicians to help them on their albums, the albums which we all love as stones fans, myself included. Keith has admitted until ALO locked him & MJ in that kitchen to write songs, it had never even occurred to him to write songs. Their early songs are not that magnificent, you can easily see the songs get better over time, with practice, which is natural. So the MJ/KR collaborations we judge as so wonderful may not actually be MJ/KR collaborations. Example: the classic Ruby Tuesday Brian helped write, and is uncredited for...another "MJ/KR collaboration".

Retired Dog-- as El said, if you think this is balony, prove him wrong. Everything he said has already been corroborated, or will be soon in the media.
As El said, "As far as my "inner stories", I don't reveal names of people or sources because they are still alive, I still speak with some of them on occasion, they may threaten to sue me, (and as to who's lying or not, it matters little - BUT I personally DO NOT have the financial means to spend thousands of dollars on attorneys' fees just to prove that yes, I was not lying in an Internet forum site) or worse. My record royalties ran out a long time ago."


El made many valid points. Anyone who can't see that either didn't read it or just doesn't want to believe the negative truth of the matter. Of course these are not things you want to hear.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-11 01:32 by Miss U..

FROM EL on the lars board:

Date Posted: 09:36:49 12/07/05 Wed
Author: El
Subject: Re: of soundtracks
In reply to: Doxa 's message, "of soundtracks" on 06:03:53 12/07/05 Wed

Doxa, head over to E-Bay, look up "Brian Jones' and eventually a copy of "A Degree of Murder" will come up.

Probably under $15. Buy it, and take a good listen, if you haven't already done so.

Your presumption about soundtracks and film music being mostly musical landscapes is correct MOST OF THE TIME, but, for an extremely talented and avant-garde individual like Brian Jones, naturually he pushed the envelpoe. If listening to this soundtrack DOESN'T convince you that Brian was indeed capable of writing, AND Mick and Keith used his ideas without proper credit, which IS stealing - something they'd NEVER get away with it today)* (see my story below*) , well then nothing will.

I heard snippets, riffs, and pieces of Rolling Stones songs long BEFORE they were ever released. I also heard great rocking blues jams that actually SOUNDED LIKE the STONES of 1963!!! AND, remember I studied their music QUITE intently for years , so I assure you this was no pale imitation!

Also, if you HAVE heard the soundtrack, remmeber that Brian no doubt needed a partner to complete songs with and write. But usually, Mick and Keith, and John and Paul too need each other to complete songs. Personally, I couldn't write very good songs on my own either, but having different songwriting partners made for better music.

The Stones never gave Brian that chance. I do beleieve that most Stones songs should carry the credit (Jagger-Jones-Richards)

Personally, and this is conjecture, I beleive that the Stones never gave Brian a writing credit because A) they were greedy, and vindicitve - it was a way to pay Brian back for taking that extra &5 a week he demamded early on , and later on they realized he was a loose cannon and if they gave him too much power, he might jump ship - leaving them in the lurch when they needed him for both and image and a muiscal boost, especially in the '60's/. In this case, it eventually turned out to be a calculated business move designed to keep thier corporation together.


****NOW THAT STORY: Recently, a few years back that is , the Stones released a song which contained the note-for-note riff of some other song (by kd Lang "constant craving") When "caught" the Stones were FORCED to add a third name to the writing credits even though it was just the riff - something that Brian never got, and it took Ron Wood YEARS to even get his name added to insignificant album cuts. But J + R knew they were cornered, so they caved. Yhey would have been sued, and would have lost.

I have no doubt this was a case of accidental plagarism. I don;t think they looked up that particular song and copied the riff. But if they could get away with this, they would have; in today's world, they couldn't.

Now it starts to get interesting. El claims that he was a professional musician for many years, and as such he confuses several different things.

I have been in a quite successful professional band for many years, and of course, I am well aware of the process of song-writing.

Speaking of songwriting, a couple of times songs were developed by all band members in a joint effort, in all these cases the whole band was jamming around, and out of nowhere, suddenly something interesting turned up and was usually developed in a more or less complete song within a couple of hours (in one case, even within a couple of minutes). However, these occasions when a song was created and developed by all band members in a joint effort were quite rare. But if it was the case, all band members were registered as composers.

Apart from those rare exceptions from the rule, the common procedure was that one member came up with at least a basic song idea (basic melody, basic song structure, more or less finished lyrics). And the other band members helped out on the arrangement. Consequently, only this band member who came up with the basic song idea received due credit as a composer.

The Stones Jagger-Richards songwriting partnership does not mean that each and every song is a 50/50 Jagger-Richards joint creation. In some cases it is the case, in other cases it is either basically a Jagger song or basically a Richards song, but in all cases the credits read Jagger-Richards. That's the deal between them.

Arranging is a different thing - just one example: When Brian Jones adds a flute to the recording of a Jagger-Richards song like Ruby Tuesday - does it make him a composer of this song? Does this flute justify a credit like Jagger-Jones-Richards? When Taylor plays a bluesy guitar riff, just noodling around on his guitar during rehearsals or in a recording break, is this already a "song"?

What El is trying to tell us all is that Jagger and Richards effectively stole COMPLETE songs from Brian and later on, Mick Taylor.

I am not saying that these serious accusations are balony, but where is the proof? It is not my task to prove El wrong. In the end, this will be the Stones task - if they take him serious or are forced to take him serious, and that is, when evidence is provided, not just statements and accusations.

Did anybody hear Brian play and sing "Satisfaction" in his flat back in 1963, two years before it surfaced as a Jagger-Richards composition? Just one example. Do home tapes of Brian exist which could prove that Brian actually wrote certain songs that Jagger-Richards later stole from him? Is there any evidence at all that Brian was actually writing songs? Sheet music, handwritten notes, tape demos, etc.? I like his A Degree Of Murder soundtrack a lot, but it still sounds like a musical landscape to me, not like songs in their own right.

Just mentioning non-events like the well-known Anybody Seen My Baby-Constant Craving "affair" is taking the easy route to throw shit in Mick and Keith's faces. Who caught them and who forced them to add a third name K.D.Lang to the credits? All I have heard was either Mick or Keith were "caught" by some of their own children who laughed their asses off when daddy proudly played the rough mix for them, and reminded them that there is indeed some similarity in the chorus melody. The Stones negotiated with K.D. Lang well before Bridges To Babylon was released, and consequently, as they could make a deal, Anybody Seen My Baby was released with a third name in the credits. Sounds quite natural to me, but in your words "caught", "forced" it sounds like another stonesy crime story.

You "forgot" to mention that on Bridges, the Stones indeed gave Keith's guitar technician Pierre credit for "Thief In The Night" because he used to play this riff during soundchecks and Keith, of course, liked it a lot. No theft at all. Keith used Pierre's riff and Pierre was credited!








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-11 03:58 by retired_dog.

Yeah...but what about Peter Tork. I find it funny that know one has brought his name up!

Did Peter Tork get porked and forked?

As far as Brian Jones, he was a talented guy who could play many instruments. Acoording to KR, Brian used to smack Anita around before KR snatched her away from him. The demon life had him in its sway.

Just one last question, El, Miss U. or whoever is hiding behind these pseudonyms:

Do you really believe you are doing Brian a favour by shooting at the Stones out of total anonymity like a sniper? I have asked this question before, but received no answer so far - and it's a very basic and simple question:

Why don't you quietly collect evidence, and when you're finished with your investigations, present the results to the police?

Instead, you have chosen to flood internet boards out of total anonymity, speaking of upcoming big events, mention "thickening plots" and a "truth" that is coming "nearer", and hide yourself on the grounds that your life is in danger or at least fear severe lawsuits. I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind this. Collect facts and evidence, present these to the Police. The Police does not fear lawsuit or live threats.

In acting like you actually do, like a sniper, this affair stinks to the highest degree. This is not the way it should be done. Don't complain that some people may not take you entirely serious.

Again, do you think you are doing Brian a favour with this?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-11 14:26 by retired_dog.

What a long bore of aread!! Brain was murderred ,killed by a carpenter or someone like that.He was fantastic, i dont believe you are,Keith is a verry warm, shy person,and he can be dangerous,if you are so famous you should know!!!You rre asick joke, and its a real bore also!sad.