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Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Sighunt ()
Date: January 6, 2024 00:36

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Sighunt
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Mathijs
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The Joker
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IrelandCalling4
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Sighunt
Boy, when i see this, how I would love to acquire a complete professionally shot 69 show of the Stones at the Garden before I leave this world. Such a shame that what's left over from what the Maysles filmed is just sitting in a vault somewhere gathering dust...

I know, how we all wish we could see that footage. Knowing that there exists a full show (or shows, surely) from 1969, and we may never get to see them. At this point the only people interested would be the super fans, but for us super fans, it would mean the world. Any proshot footage from those years (besides the already released), 1969-1972, would be gold.

I don't understand why they wait to release it. Most of the hardcore buyers will be ashes in 20 years...

According to the Maysles brothers they did not film complete shows. The tape canisters needed reloading every couple of minutes, so they made storyboards of when all the cameras would film and when not, to change the tape canister. They used Baltimore and a try out, they filmed parts of Miami as well, and decided to stay until Altamont to film some more additional footage.

Further, there likely do not exist many more film outtakes as the procedure back then was editing by actually cutting the tape with scissors and pasting it back, and all the outtakes were dropped to the floor and then discarded. So the outtakes that are available are mostly single camera shots that were not used for the movie.

Mathijs

This is a very interesting discussion.When I developed the petition to release the complete audio tracks of the MSG shows, I received a couple of e-mails from Stones fans who attended the private/paid event in the mid 2000's in New York where the last living Maysle brother Albert showed footage of the Stones at MSG 69 that didn't make it in the film and both of these folks claim there was just enough footage (plus what has already been released in Gimme Shelter) to make up (just about) a complete show. That is why I opted in the petition to include the video with the audio. Now I don't know if these folks were bullshitting me or what but that was what was told to me.

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-06 00:41 by Sighunt.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Eleanor Rigby ()
Date: January 6, 2024 14:30

And this is great news!
Thanks for sharing mate

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 7, 2024 14:34

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Sighunt

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.

This is not what Maysles have been stating in various interviews, and not according to what was technically possible at the time. They used Eclair NPR cameras with Eastman ECO 7255 reels, exactly the same as for Woodstock. The cameras operated in sync, with a maximum of 8 minutes reel time. Hence, after 8 minutes all cameras had to reload the reel canisters, which took about two minutes. So, of every 80 minutes concert between 15 and 20 minutes would not be filmed. This was exactly the same for Woodstock.

Mathijs

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Sighunt ()
Date: January 7, 2024 14:56

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Mathijs
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Sighunt

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.

This is not what Maysles have been stating in various interviews, and not according to what was technically possible at the time. They used Eclair NPR cameras with Eastman ECO 7255 reels, exactly the same as for Woodstock. The cameras operated in sync, with a maximum of 8 minutes reel time. Hence, after 8 minutes all cameras had to reload the reel canisters, which took about two minutes. So, of every 80 minutes concert between 15 and 20 minutes would not be filmed. This was exactly the same for Woodstock.

Mathijs

Very interesting. There is certainly a lot of credibility to what you report. It is not my intention to lead people on with false information. I just reported what has been told to me and shared it. The last thing I want to do is give people false hope about what MSG footage exists or not. And if I did so, i will apologize to the whole Stones fan community who visit this site. Sighunt is a stand-up guy!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-07 15:16 by Sighunt.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 7, 2024 17:23

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Sighunt

Very interesting. There is certainly a lot of credibility to what you report. It is not my intention to lead people on with false information. I just reported what has been told to me and shared it. The last thing I want to do is give people false hope about what MSG footage exists or not. And if I did so, i will apologize to the whole Stones fan community who visit this site. Sighunt is a stand-up guy!

Fully understood, and thanks for all your information. In this case I sure hope that I will be proven wrong and that a full MSG shows exists!

And, there is a lot of conflicting information. For example, George Lucas filmed the overview shots from the back of the Altamont terrain, and is credited as camera man. Later information is that his camera jammed from the first moment on and that no footage shot by him was used. But there clearly are shots from the back in the Gimme Shelter...

Mathijs

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: January 7, 2024 17:34

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Mathijs
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Sighunt

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.

This is not what Maysles have been stating in various interviews, and not according to what was technically possible at the time. They used Eclair NPR cameras with Eastman ECO 7255 reels, exactly the same as for Woodstock. The cameras operated in sync, with a maximum of 8 minutes reel time. Hence, after 8 minutes all cameras had to reload the reel canisters, which took about two minutes. So, of every 80 minutes concert between 15 and 20 minutes would not be filmed. This was exactly the same for Woodstock.

Mathijs


In order to prevent the gaps, why didn’t they stagger when each camera started so that there would never be any gaps? Was recording all cameras in sync more important than getting all the footage? It seems stupid to a layperson like me.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Sighunt ()
Date: January 7, 2024 19:14

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Mathijs
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Sighunt

Very interesting. There is certainly a lot of credibility to what you report. It is not my intention to lead people on with false information. I just reported what has been told to me and shared it. The last thing I want to do is give people false hope about what MSG footage exists or not. And if I did so, i will apologize to the whole Stones fan community who visit this site. Sighunt is a stand-up guy!

Fully understood, and thanks for all your information. In this case I sure hope that I will be proven wrong and that a full MSG shows exists!

And, there is a lot of conflicting information. For example, George Lucas filmed the overview shots from the back of the Altamont terrain, and is credited as camera man. Later information is that his camera jammed from the first moment on and that no footage shot by him was used. But there clearly are shots from the back in the Gimme Shelter...

Mathijs

Before I leave this conversation, and I know we've beaten it to death, I do want to re-iterate something I said in an earlier post as I feel it is important and I don't want this piece of information to get lost in the mix. Almost 2 years ago now since I began the petition to release all the MSG audio, I received private e-mails from folks who attended that private paid event in NY hosted by Albert Maysles attended by the Shidoobee group. What was communicated to me by separate sources was that the participants got to view concert footage that never made it into the Gimme Shelter movie. I can pretty much say this with confidence.

Now what has been baffling to me about this whole scenario is that for several years and around the time that myself and several others put together the first petition (in the latter 2000's) dubbed the Ya Yas project (that i previously pitched on this site), I was aware of this event in NY and attempted to contact some of these participants who attended it. One of the folks acted like he was privy to some top secret govt. info and told me he was sworn to secrecy (seriously) and chose not to divulge any info about it.

I surmise that with the passage of time and the fact that the last living of the filmmaker brothers (Albert) passing in 2015, more information has been (and/or should be) leaked about that event (from the people who were there) so we all have consistent information.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-07 19:33 by Sighunt.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: The Joker ()
Date: January 7, 2024 21:06

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Sighunt


One of the folks acted like he was privy to some top secret govt. info and told me he was sworn to secrecy (seriously) and chose not to divulge any info about it.


Oath of the Shidoobians


Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 8, 2024 12:25

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NashvilleBlues
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Mathijs
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Sighunt

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.

This is not what Maysles have been stating in various interviews, and not according to what was technically possible at the time. They used Eclair NPR cameras with Eastman ECO 7255 reels, exactly the same as for Woodstock. The cameras operated in sync, with a maximum of 8 minutes reel time. Hence, after 8 minutes all cameras had to reload the reel canisters, which took about two minutes. So, of every 80 minutes concert between 15 and 20 minutes would not be filmed. This was exactly the same for Woodstock.

Mathijs


In order to prevent the gaps, why didn’t they stagger when each camera started so that there would never be any gaps? Was recording all cameras in sync more important than getting all the footage? It seems stupid to a layperson like me.

Because those old analog camera's need to have their tape speeds in sync, or else it is impossible to edit the various shots together to form one movie. It further is impossible to add the music to it, which is recorded separately. The tape rotor speed is synced via a cable to an electric motor which is synced by the power supply's frequency.

Mathijs

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: January 8, 2024 15:07

Thanks. And that’s why I called myself a layperson.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: ds1984 ()
Date: January 8, 2024 22:35

All that we need is every involved businessmen really willing to get the recorded material released.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: slew ()
Date: January 9, 2024 01:43

The sound here is menacing, ferocious! I wish we had a full show.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: January 9, 2024 14:29

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Mathijs
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NashvilleBlues
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Mathijs
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Sighunt

Just as a follow-up to this conversation, I received an e-mail from former IORR poster, Tim aka Plexi who saw this thread and clarified to me that Doug Potash (Stones Doug), founder and head of Shidoobee, told Plexi per his conversation with Albert Maysles that ALL MSG shows were filmed in their entirety. Doug was the one who organized the event with Albert Maysles in the mid 2000's.

This is not what Maysles have been stating in various interviews, and not according to what was technically possible at the time. They used Eclair NPR cameras with Eastman ECO 7255 reels, exactly the same as for Woodstock. The cameras operated in sync, with a maximum of 8 minutes reel time. Hence, after 8 minutes all cameras had to reload the reel canisters, which took about two minutes. So, of every 80 minutes concert between 15 and 20 minutes would not be filmed. This was exactly the same for Woodstock.

Mathijs


In order to prevent the gaps, why didn’t they stagger when each camera started so that there would never be any gaps? Was recording all cameras in sync more important than getting all the footage? It seems stupid to a layperson like me.

Because those old analog camera's need to have their tape speeds in sync, or else it is impossible to edit the various shots together to form one movie. It further is impossible to add the music to it, which is recorded separately. The tape rotor speed is synced via a cable to an electric motor which is synced by the power supply's frequency.

Mathijs

weren't there portable open reel video tape setups at that time (like what filmed the video of jjf) that could've in theory recorded the whole show without any loss of music possibly with one or two reels of tape switched out between two cameras

albeit at a great loss of picture quality

just curious you seem pretty well informed about the technology available at the time and it's capabilities and limitations

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: automaticchanger ()
Date: January 9, 2024 19:31

Yes, Sony Portapak video cameras were available, which used 1/2" open reel black and white videotape. This is what was used for the Detroit video, as well as the LA forum footage and Ira Schneider's amateur Altamont recordings. Unfortunately the low resolution of the image was significant enough to be banned by networks, which led to the development of public access television, like WABX Tubeworks in Detroit that originally shot and broadcast a few songs from Detroit.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: January 10, 2024 03:58

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automaticchanger
Yes, Sony Portapak video cameras were available, which used 1/2" open reel black and white videotape. This is what was used for the Detroit video, as well as the LA forum footage and Ira Schneider's amateur Altamont recordings. Unfortunately the low resolution of the image was significant enough to be banned by networks, which led to the development of public access television, like WABX Tubeworks in Detroit that originally shot and broadcast a few songs from Detroit.

i didn't know that about the picture quality leading to a network ban on the use of it

that's interesting

about the portapak what was the time capacity of a tape reel?

i ask because i've heard that about 40 minutes of both la and detroit were filmed and i wonder if that was because the tape reels were limited to 40 or so minutes each or if the stones only agreed to that amount of the shows being filmed

or was it a battery issue?

also wasn't portapak footage shot at altamont as well?

was that shot for the maysles brothers?

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: automaticchanger ()
Date: January 10, 2024 19:49

You could get about an hour on the tapes, so combination tape/battery reasons, yes. The Portapak Altamont footage was shot by Ira Schneider, an early video artist from NY - no affiliation with the official Maysles footage or any of the other film sources.

Re: “Jumping Jack Flash” Detroit 1969 , Reelin' In The Years Archive
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: January 10, 2024 20:04

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automaticchanger
You could get about an hour on the tapes, so combination tape/battery reasons, yes. The Portapak Altamont footage was shot by Ira Schneider, an early video artist from NY - no affiliation with the official Maysles footage or any of the other film sources.

thanks

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