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Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: bassplayer617 ()
Date: December 3, 2005 09:20

I used to buy them back in the 70s, as it seemed like a cool thing to do at the time. Of course, back then all you could get were LPs.

No more. This latest story on Drake's free issue of the Columbus show being hijacked and offered for sale should be the last straw.

In the 21st century, no one should EVER have to pay for a boot when they are freely being offered, unless you're a dumbass sucker who is willing to fork up cash for them -- in this case, you deserve to pay for your stupidity.

I applaud those folks who are willing to share via torrents and file-sharing. THIS is the way it should be done.

As for the bootleggers for profit? You want hardcore ? For the US-based dealers, the Fed can shut you down AND impose income tax on your proceeds from selling these.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: tomcat 6 ()
Date: December 3, 2005 09:30

Don't talk crap....................it's up to the individual if THEY want to buy a boot CD or DVD..................and what makes you think that trading is legal ?

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2005 10:22

Yep. I know I sound like a teacher now but Tomcat 6 is right with his remark that in legal terms, unfortunately there is no difference between trading and selling... So Drake's Columbus show being "hijacked" by Sister Morphine is effectively a case of bootleggers bootlegging a bootlegger. It's hard to face it because morally, giving away something for free is usually rated higher than selling it for cash, but in terms of copyright laws it is pretty much the same. It is a well-known fact that the Stones ain't no Grateful Dead who used to allow taping of their shows and their trading amongst fans for free. The Dead even reserved special tapers sections at their show where tapers could set up their equipment. Whereas at a Stones show, the equipment has to be smuggled inside. And this fact alone says it all.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: BOBM ()
Date: December 3, 2005 11:07

If the Stones ever decide to crack down on traders and people who illegally record their shows, the easiest targets to go after from a legal perspective are those who exposed themselves to irrefutable proof of their guilt by uploading and downloading shows on the internet. If Bassplayer wants to talk about stupidity, from the legal perspective the person who sends cash to a bootlegger is a lot smarter than a person who lets an illegal recording stream to his desktop PC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-03 12:38 by BOBM.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: ron091 ()
Date: December 3, 2005 11:09

Pete Townshend says on his website that The Who are looking into setting up special taping areas at their shows they are planning for next year. Including video taping!
So some other bands besides the well known example of the Grateful Dead are also encouraging taping. U2 don't mind taping either, as long as no one makes money. That means to me that trading them is also ok.
The way that the Stones personnel are so aggressive against just picture taking is quite ridiculous. What do they think we all are going to do? Sell the pictures? Come on.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: wisertime ()
Date: December 3, 2005 11:31

A lot of groups allow taping and trading (Crowes, Gov't Mule, My Morning Jacket, M.Knopfler, etc.).

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: rknuth ()
Date: December 3, 2005 12:11

If you listen to what the Stones play these days you know why they can't allow taping...

And at least according to US justice the forbiddance of bootlegs is illegal. I will post the link together with the fax of the judges statements!

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: Esky ()
Date: December 3, 2005 13:04

rknuth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you listen to what the Stones play these days
> you know why they can't allow taping...
>
> And at least according to US justice the
> forbiddance of bootlegs is illegal. I will post
> the link together with the fax of the judges
> statements!


ha ha...

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: The GR ()
Date: December 3, 2005 13:28

Recording a show is not a bootleg. If you record a show you are only breaking the terms under which you bought the ticket (no cameras recording equipment etc). If you sell the recording you are breaking the law, compounded by if you make a sleeve and sell it as a legitimate product, ie a bootleg.

The Stones record every show so they can prosecute as they have an official version and can claim that the boot damages the possibility of commercial exploitation.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: tomcat 6 ()
Date: December 3, 2005 13:56

Even if you trade for free ............you are still breaking the law, the recording is viewed as intellectual propery.......

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Date: December 3, 2005 14:00

I'm sorry for all of you who needs CDs and DVDs. I got my stuff on harddisk. And I don't give a shit if this or that is "illegal". Don't start me to tell you what I think is illegal.

Maybe some people should start to reread Pierre-Joseph Proudhon ("Property is theft").

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: Mack Jigger ()
Date: December 3, 2005 14:12

Bassplayer617,

Why this hostile attitude towards bootleggers? Sure some of the dealers make a lot of money, most of em don't. If there weren't any bootleggers in the past most of us (the fans) would not have had the outtakes and live shows we enjoy so much.

I agree that bootlegging is something from the past and sharing recordings via torrents is the new thing. It's like tape trading in the 70's/80's. It's a good thing. At the end it's the music that counts.
But who ever wants to buy and collect bootlegs, let them. I don't buy bootleg cd's anymore, but I still collect vinyl boots and enjoy it.

Calling somebody who still wants to buy bootlegs a "dumbass sucker" is a dumbass sucker to me.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: Promoman ()
Date: December 3, 2005 14:51

I have app. 10 Gig of Stones music on my harddrive. Most of it is illegal.

I don't feel guilty however since I've been paying for songs that appeared on different lp's, I've payed for the same songs again when I bought the CD's and I payed again for royalties on every empty CDR I bought.

I don't agree witj this banner.



About paying for boots. To me it's a matter of Offer and Demand. If I want something badly I'll pay for it.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Date: December 3, 2005 15:03

Promoman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About paying for boots. To me it's a matter of
> Offer and Demand. If I want something badly I'll
> pay for it.

Absolutely agree. The record companies are nothing but waylays. And if there's another way (except of paying) to get that badly wanted stuff I'll go that other way. I call it the Captain's way.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2005 15:24

The GR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Recording a show is not a bootleg. If you record
> a show you are only breaking the terms under which
> you bought the ticket (no cameras recording
> equipment etc). If you sell the recording you are
> breaking the law, compounded by if you make a
> sleeve and sell it as a legitimate product, ie a
> bootleg.

Sorry, you're wrong. Check your local copy copyright laws and the additional international copyright treaties your country has joined. Look under "rights of the performing artists". These clearly say that the recording, copying and distribution of an artist's performance is illegal if any of these acts are done without their consent.

Consequently, even the recording of a Stones show for personal use is illegal if you have no permission from the Stones. And any copying and further distribution is illegal too. Copyright laws usually do not distinguish between commercial distribution (for money) or free distribution/trade. That's the simple fact.

A judge at court might treat you more gentle by giving you a lesser fine when you are able to prove that you took no money and just distributed this illegal recording as a labour of love for free to make other fans happy. But that's all.

Sorry again, these are the hard facts. Not trying to teach you, just trying to separate the sentimental or moral viewpoint from the hard facts!

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: KYRIAKOS ()
Date: December 3, 2005 15:27

F.U.C The Captain quoted Proudhon some posts up: "Property is theft". Theft is a negative word in this equation. It is negative because theft is illegal property. So it is a property too! It is a kind of a paradox.We could ask ourselves whether property is legal or illegal. But then again according to who's laws? We pay the Stones to play let's say "Angie" for us, which is their property. This means they stole it according to Proudhon's equation! If someone tapes/films the performance, this would produce an extra commodity, a property in his hands which is theft again.Isn't it puzzling?

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2005 15:33

KYRIAKOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> F.U.C The Captain quoted Proudhon some posts up:
> "Property is theft". Theft is a negative word in
> this equation. It is negative because theft is
> illegal property. So it is a property too! It is a
> kind of a paradox.We could ask ourselves whether
> property is legal or illegal. But then again
> according to who's laws? We pay the Stones to play
> let's say "Angie" for us, which is their property.
> This means they stole it according to Proudhon's
> equation! If someone tapes/films the performance,
> this would produce an extra commodity, a property
> in his hands which is theft again.Isn't it
> puzzling?

Isn't it puzzling that the only laws that count in reality are not made by F.U.C. The Captain and his hero Proudhon?


Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Date: December 3, 2005 15:41

KYRIAKOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> F.U.C The Captain quoted Proudhon some posts up:
> "Property is theft". Theft is a negative word in
> this equation. It is negative because theft is
> illegal property. So it is a property too! It is a
> kind of a paradox.We could ask ourselves whether
> property is legal or illegal. But then again
> according to who's laws? We pay the Stones to play
> let's say "Angie" for us, which is their property.
> This means they stole it according to Proudhon's
> equation! If someone tapes/films the performance,
> this would produce an extra commodity, a property
> in his hands which is theft again.Isn't it
> puzzling?

Whatever kind of paradox Proudhon's quotation is (and you can read all about it in the wikipedia: [www.tv4.se] ) it would be good if everyone of us would have a thought or two about things like "property" or even "intellectual property" and "copyright".

However, and I'm speaking for myself, I'm paying them (or anyone) to play for me. I pay if otherwise they won't let me in. I also pay for a disk with their recordings on it. I even pay for an empty disk. They even force me to pay additional fees for empty disks, even if I want to record my own voice and I'll never get anything back from them.

But I definitely don't pay for COPYING anyone's recordings. And I won't pay if I stand outside the venue listening.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: December 3, 2005 20:25

Many of the shows that were audience filmed this tour (as well as past tours) were only done with the motivation of profit. Shut these guys down and you don't get audience DVDs anymore.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: StonesTod ()
Date: December 3, 2005 21:09

i also don't understand the hostility. as I've mentioned on another thread, there are alot of folks in the buying public who either have no ready access to free trading/downloading and quite prefer to buy the boots....in this sense the SM's of the world are a much-valued service provider. end of story.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: bassaleman ()
Date: December 3, 2005 22:20

How about ending ticket scalping and greedy ticket brokers that inflate the prices of just about every popular group? !!!

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: December 3, 2005 23:52

bassaleman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about ending ticket scalping and greedy ticket
> brokers that inflate the prices of just about
> every popular group? !!!


Yeah inflate prices only for idiots who don't know how to buy tickets. I have had numerous transactions with both scalpers and brokers and can't say I have ever been disatisfied. As with bootlegging or drugs, the problem lies on the shoulders of the customers.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Date: December 4, 2005 02:36

Mmmmmmmmm... how 'bout ending war for profit first? Like going into Iraq and Afghanistan, destroying the infrastructure, then Bushies crones and chappies' construction companies charging top dollar to rebuild it all.

Our soldiers over there are just pawns and my sympathies are with them and their families to get them the f*ck out of there and home where they belong w/their family and friends and jobs.

"The wonder of Jimi Hendrix was that he could stand up at all he was so pumped full of drugs." Patsy, Patsy Stone

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: bassplayer617 ()
Date: December 4, 2005 07:51

Well, this discussion has taken some intersting turns, so I'm not sorry for starting it.

Look, my beef is NOT about bootleggers, per se. My beef is about those folks who make money from it.

Yeah, it's like everything else -- people are sold, nations are sold, hell, even religion is sold -- "send money to The Church of the Sacred Bleeding Heart of Jesus and they'll say your prayer on the radio, and all your dreams will come true".

I suppose that I was mistaken, so I apologize. As an American, far be it from me to criticize the right to rake in cash in true capitalist fashion -- as long as Uncle Sam gets his share of the proceeds, I guess it's OK (ahem, cynical rolling of eyes intended).

BTW, all of you bootleg sellers need to remember to collect sales tax (if applicable) and remit it to your state of residence's tax department. You'll probably also have to get a business license (type of business -- collectibles retail (LOL) )

It's just like the Mafia --once you go legit, you're home free.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-04 08:13 by bassplayer617.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: StonesTod ()
Date: December 4, 2005 08:49

bassplayer617 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Look, my beef is NOT about bootleggers, per se.
> My beef is about those folks who make money from
> it.
>
>


Uh....that's what a bootlegger does....so I think you do have a beef...a big, beefy one at that!

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: bassplayer617 ()
Date: December 4, 2005 09:41

StonesTod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bassplayer617 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > Look, my beef is NOT about bootleggers, per
> se.
> > My beef is about those folks who make money
> from
> > it.
> >
> >
>
>
> Uh....that's what a bootlegger does....so I think
> you do have a beef...a big, beefy one at that!

Thanks -- maybe?! My beef is a prime cut, thank you very much. This is getting strange.

In West Virginia, bootlegging isn't a local industry. However, moonshine production IS, so is there a parallel?

Once you're drunk, it doesn't matter how you did it. With music, it doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it affects you.


Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Date: December 4, 2005 10:20

retired_dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't it puzzling that the only laws that count in
> reality are not made by F.U.C. The Captain and his
> hero Proudhon?

Isn't it puzzling that there actually is no law that counts but the Captain just won't pay for every shite? (and believe me I do not pay)



Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: KYRIAKOS ()
Date: December 4, 2005 11:17

Captain, if you mean that there are no laws but only interpretations of them , I fully agree with you. And btw do it your way, and that's a law!

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: December 4, 2005 12:26

I bought all records (LP's) starting in '69 with the introduction of the CD's most of the record I bought again and with the introduction of the SACD I bought one till now.

So I think that I paid enough royalities.

And now I download anything I can find

__________________________




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-23 03:06 by NICOS.

Re: Ending Bootlegging For Profit
Posted by: sumi ()
Date: December 4, 2005 14:17

Well, you talking about bootlegars,they are separate kind of people for sure.
they don't pay taxes to local comunnity, it is true.
ANYBODY THINKING ABOUT NEXT?
That you buy 'legal'CD in legal shop,but that CD is not under control of record company or artist.One factory produce one quantity legally, another one ilegally, of same title off course.But some of you are blind with eyes.Some of you see only what want to see.You only see bootlgs, bootleging, audio/video taping...what about organised crime in record industry????What about milions dollars?????????you talking about somone who taped something and sold around 20-30,maybe 100 copies???you talking about some bootleg company who produced 1000 cd's,invested in pressing $2000 and get back $5000 for one year of period?is it really big money?is it worth to talk about it??

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