or "Whip It Up" or several other solo Keith songs. Wow! Or Keith on "Evening Gown"?

One can dream....

imagine what steel wheels or voodoo lounge would have been like if mick and keith saved the best songs off there respective solo for the stones albums

I can imagine The Stones playing "Evening Gown" easy enough. Apart from a brief backing vocal turn, I can't imagine Mick singing any of the Winos material.

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ProfessorWolf
imagine what steel wheels or voodoo lounge would have been like if mick and keith saved the best songs off there respective solo for the stones albums

"Steel Wheels" is good enough without "help" from any solo tunes - if I could have changed anything I would have replaced "Blinded By Love" (which simply doesn't do it for me just like "Indian Girl" on ER) with "For Your Precious Love" and possibly "Break The Spell" with "Fancy Man Blues" - possibly, because sometimes I prefer the one, sometimes the other.

The situation is completely different with "Voodoo Lounge" imo. This could have been a true later day classic Stones album with "Hate It When You Leave", "Don't Tear Me Up", "Out Of Focus", "Evening Gown", "Sweet Thing" and "Wandering Spirit" replacing the many duds or at least just mediocre stuff on the album.

I vividly recall that shortly after its release, at every party of let's say, "general rock fans" I went to, it was like, "oh, the new Stones, put it in the player" and after a couple of songs, usually when it reached the "The Worst/New Faces/Moon Is Up" segment, enthusiasm quickly died down and the CD got thrown out of the player. In some cases, I insisted to put "Wandering Spirit" on and the almost general consensus was: "Wow, this is so much better than the new Stones!". This all, however, outside the "Stones fan bubble".

Made me always think what a wasted opportunity VL really was. Let's face it, the Stones status was saved by their live shows at the time, not exactly by their studio albums and not "Voodoo Lounge" in particular, an album I no more listen to these days, at least not in its entirety, just because it's so uneven.

A wasted opportunity even more because it robbed us of a few nice alternatives for live shows, too. I'd rather love to hear "Hate It When You Leave" instead of Keith endlessly repeating the same 4-5 songs during his two-song set at Stones shows.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-04 11:19 by retired_dog.

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retired_dog

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ProfessorWolf
imagine what steel wheels or voodoo lounge would have been like if mick and keith saved the best songs off there respective solo for the stones albums

"Steel Wheels" is good enough without "help" from any solo tunes - if I could have changed anything I would have replaced "Blinded By Love" (which simply doesn't do it for me just like "Indian Girl" on ER) with "For Your Precious Love" and possibly "Break The Spell" with "Fancy Man Blues" - possibly, because sometimes I prefer the one, sometimes the other.

The situation is completely different with "Voodoo Lounge" imo. This could have been a true later day classic Stones album with "Hate It When You Leave", "Don't Tear Me Up", "Out Of Focus", "Evening Gown", "Sweet Thing" and "Wandering Spirit" replacing the many duds or at least just mediocre stuff on the album.

I vividly recall that shortly after its release, at every party of let's say, "general rock fans" I went to, it was like, "oh, the new Stones, put it in the player" and after a couple of songs, usually when it reached the "The Worst/New Faces/Moon Is Up" segment, enthusiasm quickly died down and the CD got thrown out of the player. In some cases, I insisted to put "Wandering Spirit" on and the almost general consensus was: "Wow, this is so much better than the new Stones!". This all, however, outside the "Stones fan bubble".

Made me always think what a wasted opportunity VL really was. Let's face it, the Stones status was saved by their live shows at the time, not exactly by their studio albums and not "Voodoo Lounge" in particular, an album I no more listen to these days, at least not in its entirety, just because it's so uneven.

A wasted opportunity even more because it robbed us of a few nice alternatives for live shows, too. I'd rather love to hear "Hate It When You Leave" instead of Keith endlessly repeating the same 4-5 songs during his two-song set at Stones shows.

What is the point of having a soul cover (Your Precious Love) on an album instead of the brilliant pseudo-calypso stuff of Blinded By Love and Indian Girl? VL is IMHO very even, some brilliant sloppiness mixed with some of the best lyrics they've ever done ('cept for the line "..sharks will cry.."

I Go Wild and Love Is Strong is proper 10 outta ten stuff.

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MadMax
What is the point of having a soul cover (Your Precious Love) on an album instead of the brilliant pseudo-calypso stuff of Blinded By Love and Indian Girl? VL is IMHO very even, some brilliant sloppiness mixed with some of the best lyrics they've ever done ('cept for the line "..sharks will cry.."

I Go Wild and Love Is Strong is proper 10 outta ten stuff.

The point for me? Listenability. To each their own, but "pseudo-calypso stuff" (as you call it, for me they are tex-mex influenced ballads) like Blinded By Love and Indian Girl (one could also add "Don't Be A Stranger" which is a lot more "pseudo-calypso" imo) is just not Stones music imo. Too cheesy for my taste. Whereas a great soul ballad is part of their DNA.

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retired_dog

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MadMax
What is the point of having a soul cover (Your Precious Love) on an album instead of the brilliant pseudo-calypso stuff of Blinded By Love and Indian Girl? VL is IMHO very even, some brilliant sloppiness mixed with some of the best lyrics they've ever done ('cept for the line "..sharks will cry.."
Ju
I Go Wild and Love Is Strong is proper 10 outta ten stuff.

The point for me? Listenability. To each their own, but "pseudo-calypso stuff" (as you call it, for me they are tex-mex influenced ballads) like Blinded By Love and Indian Girl (one could also add "Don't Be A Stranger" which is a lot more "pseudo-calypso" imo) is just not Stones music imo. Too cheesy for my taste. Whereas a great soul ballad is part of their DNA.

Yeah, Tex-Mex influenced ballads are a better word, at work so wrote it fast. IMHO it's very enjoyable when they do that stuff, Sweethearts Together is another one. Your Precious Love is a killer tune (albeit a cover) and Fancyman Blues should have been on the SW album + should've been played live during these 30 odd years. One of their best blues tunes if not the Best.

just to be clear i love all these stones and solo albums too as they are

but i realize that there not exactly up to snuff with something like exile

but imagine that they didn't go off on there various solo projects in the late 80's and early 90's and saved the songs they came up with for stones albums

hell maybe even ronnie brings some slide on this songs for them to work on

and maybe one or two of the blues covers that mick did with red devils

out all this there has to be the foundations of a latter day stones album that the majority of fans could agree is great

and yes i could hear mick singing lead on lots of winos stuff

well at least about a third of it

the rest i agree is just to geared towards keith's particular style to be reworked for mick

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retired_dog

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ProfessorWolf
imagine what steel wheels or voodoo lounge would have been like if mick and keith saved the best songs off there respective solo for the stones albums

"Steel Wheels" is good enough without "help" from any solo tunes - if I could have changed anything I would have replaced "Blinded By Love" (which simply doesn't do it for me just like "Indian Girl" on ER) with "For Your Precious Love" and possibly "Break The Spell" with "Fancy Man Blues" - possibly, because sometimes I prefer the one, sometimes the other.

The situation is completely different with "Voodoo Lounge" imo. This could have been a true later day classic Stones album with "Hate It When You Leave", "Don't Tear Me Up", "Out Of Focus", "Evening Gown", "Sweet Thing" and "Wandering Spirit" replacing the many duds or at least just mediocre stuff on the album.

I vividly recall that shortly after its release, at every party of let's say, "general rock fans" I went to, it was like, "oh, the new Stones, put it in the player" and after a couple of songs, usually when it reached the "The Worst/New Faces/Moon Is Up" segment, enthusiasm quickly died down and the CD got thrown out of the player. In some cases, I insisted to put "Wandering Spirit" on and the almost general consensus was: "Wow, this is so much better than the new Stones!". This all, however, outside the "Stones fan bubble".

Made me always think what a wasted opportunity VL really was. Let's face it, the Stones status was saved by their live shows at the time, not exactly by their studio albums and not "Voodoo Lounge" in particular, an album I no more listen to these days, at least not in its entirety, just because it's so uneven.

A wasted opportunity even more because it robbed us of a few nice alternatives for live shows, too. I'd rather love to hear "Hate It When You Leave" instead of Keith endlessly repeating the same 4-5 songs during his two-song set at Stones shows.

"Almost hear you sigh" comes from Keef solo sessions:
[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-04 16:17 by KRiffhard.

Fun to imagine, but the simple answer is that Keith’s solo tunes wouldn’t end up the same way if Mick sang them. He’d rewrite the lyrics, taking Keith’s suggested phrases and titles in his own direction. And he’d tidy up the melodies, make them sharper.

One of the oddities of Keith’s solo work is how much of it lacks a definable verse-chorus structures. That includes It Means a Lot. Also Struggle, You Don’t Move Me, Rockawhile, 999, Bodytalks, et al.

For Keith, this is a feature. For Mick, I suspect it’s a bug.

Can’t Be Seen is an example of this style of songwriting bleeding into the Stones. What part is the verse? What’s the chorus? That’s one reason it ends up such a mess onstage. In 1989-90, Keith was sharp enough to remember all the nuances of the arrangement, and pulled it off most nights.

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KRiffhard

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retired_dog

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ProfessorWolf
imagine what steel wheels or voodoo lounge would have been like if mick and keith saved the best songs off there respective solo for the stones albums

"Steel Wheels" is good enough without "help" from any solo tunes - if I could have changed anything I would have replaced "Blinded By Love" (which simply doesn't do it for me just like "Indian Girl" on ER) with "For Your Precious Love" and possibly "Break The Spell" with "Fancy Man Blues" - possibly, because sometimes I prefer the one, sometimes the other.

The situation is completely different with "Voodoo Lounge" imo. This could have been a true later day classic Stones album with "Hate It When You Leave", "Don't Tear Me Up", "Out Of Focus", "Evening Gown", "Sweet Thing" and "Wandering Spirit" replacing the many duds or at least just mediocre stuff on the album.

I vividly recall that shortly after its release, at every party of let's say, "general rock fans" I went to, it was like, "oh, the new Stones, put it in the player" and after a couple of songs, usually when it reached the "The Worst/New Faces/Moon Is Up" segment, enthusiasm quickly died down and the CD got thrown out of the player. In some cases, I insisted to put "Wandering Spirit" on and the almost general consensus was: "Wow, this is so much better than the new Stones!". This all, however, outside the "Stones fan bubble".

Made me always think what a wasted opportunity VL really was. Let's face it, the Stones status was saved by their live shows at the time, not exactly by their studio albums and not "Voodoo Lounge" in particular, an album I no more listen to these days, at least not in its entirety, just because it's so uneven.

A wasted opportunity even more because it robbed us of a few nice alternatives for live shows, too. I'd rather love to hear "Hate It When You Leave" instead of Keith endlessly repeating the same 4-5 songs during his two-song set at Stones shows.

"Almost hear you sigh" comes from Keef solo sessions:
[youtu.be]

Yeah, of course, but the context of this thread is "could songs from their solo albums have improved Stones albums, in particular Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge", and as AHYS was actually released on Steel Wheels, it's not a song from "outside" in this respect.

Yes, "Almost Hear You Sigh" is great example.

Also, "Can't Be Seen" is just a poor song, IMHO.

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Elmo Lewis

Also, "Can't Be Seen" is just a poor song, IMHO.

I like the recording quite a bit — especially the bridge.

It just doesn’t translate well to a live situation.

I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo. Imagine then you have this unreleased album, Voodoo, and Bridges. For me, those 3 would rival the Big 5 (I think it a crime to lower GHS from the standard of the Big 4; it's just a completely different vibe, but equally as good, if not better than some of the other 4).

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VoodooLounge13
I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo. Imagine then you have this unreleased album, Voodoo, and Bridges. For me, those 3 would rival the Big 5 (I think it a crime to lower GHS from the standard of the Big 4; it's just a completely different vibe, but equally as good, if not better than some of the other 4).

Yes, we could have gotten a fantastic Stones album from MO, WS, and SOT.

"No Anchovies, Please"

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VoodooLounge13
I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo.

The stillborn album that was VL had 3 main reasons imo :
- Keith was "hot" from the MO tour so he thought inspiration would come to him easily during the VL sessions (he was wrong - "Sparks..." is probably the worst song he ever wrote).

- the complete pre-VL Barbados sessions shared here by Glimmerman showed Mick had tons of song ideas... most of them were "meh" dance tunes.

- Don Was totally failed at putting the sessions on the right tracks and choosing the right demos to be developed into finished songs.
("Moon Is Up" "Baby Break It Down"... c'mon!)

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dcba

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VoodooLounge13
I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo.

The stillborn album that was VL had 3 main reasons imo :
- Keith was "hot" from the MO tour so he thought inspiration would come to him easily during the VL sessions (he was wrong - "Sparks..." is probably the worst song he ever wrote).

- the complete pre-VL Barbados sessions shared here by Glimmerman showed Mick had tons of song ideas... most of them were "meh" dance tunes.

- Don Was totally failed at putting the sessions on the right tracks and choosing the right demos to be developed into finished songs.
("Moon Is Up" "Baby Break It Down"... c'mon!)

yeah!

come on!

crank em' up!

love those two

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Elmo Lewis

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VoodooLounge13
I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo. Imagine then you have this unreleased album, Voodoo, and Bridges. For me, those 3 would rival the Big 5 (I think it a crime to lower GHS from the standard of the Big 4; it's just a completely different vibe, but equally as good, if not better than some of the other 4).

Yes, we could have gotten a fantastic Stones album from MO, WS, and SOT.

However, with that possible album, I wonder whether VOODOO LOUNGE would have been released in its wake. That is, whether a rather different album with quite many unused songs could have come about instead. As much as I consider VOODOO LOUNGE as a somewhat backward looking album for the band to refind themselves at that stage. With the said possible album in advance, there would not have been the same need for the kind of album that VOODOO LOUNGE is.

I really like VL. It just needed editing down to, say, 12 songs.

I can't give a link by the mobile I am writing on. But in a thread started by lem motlow with the title "Fire Don Was NOW! THE Voodoo Disaster part1" lem had a following post on April 17, 2019. There lem brings a quote by Mick Jagger from RS Magazine 1995. We learn that Don Was contributed to steer the Stones away from some song material that was not used, a fact that Mick thought was a mistake. That material consisted, according to the quote, of groove songs, African influences and things like that.

With the above mentionned hypothetical album in advance, it seems possible whatever we might wish, that another album than VOODOO LOUNGE could have followed in such a different context. I for one would have preferred an outcome like that, on the basis of what we know and of what we are told.

How aboutAl-Di-La

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Taylor1
How aboutAl-Di-La

I must admit that I don't know what that is.

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Witness

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Taylor1
How aboutAl-Di-La

I must admit that I don't know what that is.

I suspect that causing confusion was Taylor1's exact intention...

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Witness

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Elmo Lewis

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VoodooLounge13
I know we all have our own tastes, but I will concur with all here, not about what could have IMPROVED a modern-day classic, but what could have been on its own yet ANOTHER modern-day classic!!!! There was a 5-year gap between SW and VL. IF the boys had taken the best of Wandering Spirit, Slide On This, Main Offender, and even a bit of influence on a Keef track from Warm & Tender they could have made an incredible album BEFORE Voodoo. Imagine then you have this unreleased album, Voodoo, and Bridges. For me, those 3 would rival the Big 5 (I think it a crime to lower GHS from the standard of the Big 4; it's just a completely different vibe, but equally as good, if not better than some of the other 4).

Yes, we could have gotten a fantastic Stones album from MO, WS, and SOT.

However, with that possible album, I wonder whether VOODOO LOUNGE would have been released in its wake. That is, whether a rather different album with quite many unused songs could have come about instead. As much as I consider VOODOO LOUNGE as a somewhat backward looking album for the band to refind themselves at that stage. With the said possible album in advance, there would not have been the same need for the kind of album that VOODOO LOUNGE is.

I am pretty sure that with this possible album according to VoodooLounge13's idea Voodoo Lounge would have looked quite different - if it had been released at all, simply because a fabled precursor of that calibre of songs would have been extremely tough to follow. At least it could have helped to turn Voodoo Lounge into the more adventurous direction that was originally envisioned by Mick - something that I would have preferred over the quite uneven, sometimes even lacklustre sounding collection of songs that VL actually turned out imo.

Moon is up is an interesting song with great Charlie drumming.

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MelBelli
Fun to imagine, but the simple answer is that Keith’s solo tunes wouldn’t end up the same way if Mick sang them. He’d rewrite the lyrics, taking Keith’s suggested phrases and titles in his own direction. And he’d tidy up the melodies, make them sharper.

One of the oddities of Keith’s solo work is how much of it lacks a definable verse-chorus structures. That includes It Means a Lot. Also Struggle, You Don’t Move Me, Rockawhile, 999, Bodytalks, et al.

For Keith, this is a feature. For Mick, I suspect it’s a bug.

Can’t Be Seen is an example of this style of songwriting bleeding into the Stones. What part is the verse? What’s the chorus? That’s one reason it ends up such a mess onstage. In 1989-90, Keith was sharp enough to remember all the nuances of the arrangement, and pulled it off most nights.

Keith was on record as saying that a big part of doing a solo album was that it allowed him to do less structured stuff that wouldn't suite the Stones.

Whether some of that material may have made good Stones songs is another argument... but those were some of Keith's thoughts at the time.

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Spud

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MelBelli
Fun to imagine, but the simple answer is that Keith’s solo tunes wouldn’t end up the same way if Mick sang them. He’d rewrite the lyrics, taking Keith’s suggested phrases and titles in his own direction. And he’d tidy up the melodies, make them sharper.

One of the oddities of Keith’s solo work is how much of it lacks a definable verse-chorus structures. That includes It Means a Lot. Also Struggle, You Don’t Move Me, Rockawhile, 999, Bodytalks, et al.

For Keith, this is a feature. For Mick, I suspect it’s a bug.

Can’t Be Seen is an example of this style of songwriting bleeding into the Stones. What part is the verse? What’s the chorus? That’s one reason it ends up such a mess onstage. In 1989-90, Keith was sharp enough to remember all the nuances of the arrangement, and pulled it off most nights.

Keith was on record as saying that a big part of doing a solo album was that it allowed him to do less structured stuff that wouldn't suite the Stones.

Whether some of that material may have made good Stones songs is another argument... but those were some of Keith's thoughts at the time.

I agree completely. It was very much by design.

Well, I imagine in my mind how Mick singing one to one "It Means A Lot" sounds like and it doesn't sound good..

But goods points here about Mick picking up Keith's pretty sketch-like melodies and lyrics and then sharping them up more structural and so, to fit for his mouth, and thereby making it a true Jagger/Richards colloboration.

But when I think of Mick not doing that and sticking close to the original Richards tune, I think "One More Shot" sounds like that. True that Jagger adds there some nananaanas to ice it a bit, but to me the tune itself with its short, token-like melody lines with brief-worded lyrics based on some random one-liners is pure Richards solo stuff. And it doesn't sound convincing at all. It's like Mick singing karaoke for a Keith solo tune, not even trying to transform it to fit his mouth and persona.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-05 17:19 by Doxa.

I thought 20 Nil sounds like Mick singing a Keith tune.

[m.youtube.com]

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Doxa
Well, I imagine in my mind how Mick singing one to one "It Means A Lot" sounds like and it doesn't sound good..

But goods points here about Mick picking up Keith's pretty sketch-like melodies and lyrics and then sharping them up more structural and so, to fit for his mouth, and thereby making it a true Jagger/Richards colloboration.

But when I think of Mick not doing that and sticking close to the original Richards tune, I think "One More Shot" sounds like that. True that Jagger adds there some nananaanas to ice it a bit, but to me the tune itself with its short, token-like melody lines with brief-worded lyrics based on some random one-liners is pure Richards solo stuff. And it doesn't sound convincing at all. It's like Mick singing karaoke for a Keith solo tune, not even trying to transform it to fit his mouth and persona.

- Doxa

Now see I actually like One More Shot quite a lot. I know D&G seems to get all the raves around here, but I think OMS is the superior tune!! It's easily one of my all-time favorite Stones songs.