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Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: ribbelchips ()
Date: December 2, 2021 12:10

Next year it will be 20 years since the ABKCO DSD remastered series first came out. In the meantime, some anniversary editions have been released (and of course the limited Stones in Mono box) but to this day it is still their 'current line' more or less.

So if you ask me, it's about time to give the 1964-1970 catalog a well-deserved refresh. 180 gram vinyl, original vinyl labels, improved artwork (that reflective Majesties Request artwork is hideous) and maybe even a boxset like the 1971-2016 one. Thoughts?

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970)
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: December 2, 2021 13:05

There's a 50th-Anniversary-Edition of Hot Rocks on 2 SHM-CDs - (21-Jan-2022):



[www.Universal-Music.co.jp] , [www.jpc.de] , [www.CDJapan.co.jp] , [www.Amazon.co.uk]

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: wiredallnight ()
Date: December 2, 2021 13:28

As a counterpart to the "Mono" box they could bring out a "Stereo" box with also all the early 60s tracks in stereo. I'm sure there are more stereo versions in the archives than the few tracks that were released so far.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Date: December 2, 2021 13:57

Quote
wiredallnight
As a counterpart to the "Mono" box they could bring out a "Stereo" box with also all the early 60s tracks in stereo. I'm sure there are more stereo versions in the archives than the few tracks that were released so far.

The real stereo from back then were often drums/vocals in one channel and the rest in the other, though.

Albums like Aftermath and BTB are a joy to listen to in mono, imo.

The songs recorded at Chess, however, sounds really good in stereo.

A Chess Recordings box set would have been something...

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: December 2, 2021 14:30

Quote
DandelionPowderman

The real stereo from back then were often drums/vocals in one channel and the rest in the other, though.

Maybe Giles Martin can correct the Stereo-panorama .... like he did with the Beatles-Albums. winking smiley

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 2, 2021 15:20

Quote
Irix
Quote
DandelionPowderman

The real stereo from back then were often drums/vocals in one channel and the rest in the other, though.

Maybe Giles Martin can correct the Stereo-panorama .... like he did with the Beatles-Albums. winking smiley

He most likely could, but this needs cooperation (=authorisation) from the Stones. Without this, ABKCO can only recycle what has been released back then. That's why they could do the Mono box. But vintage unreleased stereo mixes? No. New stereo mixes by Giles Martin or whoever? No. They control the pre-1971 material, but their hands are bound on anything the Stones did not agree to release back then (or later on archive projects like Circus, GYYYO Deluxe, Charlie Is My Darling etc.).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-02 15:25 by retired_dog.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Date: December 2, 2021 15:30

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
Irix
Quote
DandelionPowderman

The real stereo from back then were often drums/vocals in one channel and the rest in the other, though.

Maybe Giles Martin can correct the Stereo-panorama .... like he did with the Beatles-Albums. winking smiley

He most likely could, but this needs cooperation (=authorisation) from the Stones. Without this, ABKCO can only recycle what has been released back then. That's why they could do the Mono box. But vintage unreleased stereo mixes? No. New stereo mixes by Giles Martin or whoever? No. They control the pre-1971 material, but their hands are bound on anything the Stones did not agree to release back then (or later on archive projects like Circus, GYYYO Deluxe, Charlie Is My Darling etc.).

Didn't the Beatles use several reel-to-reel-tape machines, before playing it all into tape for mixing and mastering? At least for some of the mid-60s albums? That way they managed to get more tracks in there (mixed together, though)

If Martin had access to those reel-to-reel-tapes it would make sense that he was able to do a real stereo mix.

I'm not sure if the Stones worked like that for (m)any of the early albums, so I don't see how Martin - or anyone else, for that matter - would be able to pull this off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-02 15:32 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2021 00:10

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
Irix
Quote
DandelionPowderman

The real stereo from back then were often drums/vocals in one channel and the rest in the other, though.

Maybe Giles Martin can correct the Stereo-panorama .... like he did with the Beatles-Albums. winking smiley

He most likely could, but this needs cooperation (=authorisation) from the Stones. Without this, ABKCO can only recycle what has been released back then. That's why they could do the Mono box. But vintage unreleased stereo mixes? No. New stereo mixes by Giles Martin or whoever? No. They control the pre-1971 material, but their hands are bound on anything the Stones did not agree to release back then (or later on archive projects like Circus, GYYYO Deluxe, Charlie Is My Darling etc.).

Didn't the Beatles use several reel-to-reel-tape machines, before playing it all into tape for mixing and mastering? At least for some of the mid-60s albums? That way they managed to get more tracks in there (mixed together, though)

If Martin had access to those reel-to-reel-tapes it would make sense that he was able to do a real stereo mix.

I'm not sure if the Stones worked like that for (m)any of the early albums, so I don't see how Martin - or anyone else, for that matter - would be able to pull this off.

Of course one would need the original multitracks, regardless if they are on one single tape or split on two or even more tapes to get more tracks (and therefore need to be synched properly). AFAIK, in contrast to the Beatles what exactly still remains in ABKCO's vaults for the Stones is more or less a mystery to a large degree.

But things like the first album were recorded two tracks only, you have vocals on one track and the band on another. There's stuff like the handclaps that were added directly, yes, live, at mono mixing stage of the two tracks, so no separate track of these handclaps was ever recorded! For similar limited material like the Beatles at Hollywood Bowl, recorded on three tracks only (vocals, band, audience noises), Giles Martin used a new technology that could digitally separate certain instruments from the mono band track to create a stereo mix. Something similar was done for certain Stones On Air tracks. However, this method is always second best compared to the availability of original separate multitrack tapes.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: Whale ()
Date: December 3, 2021 01:22

Quote
wiredallnight
As a counterpart to the "Mono" box they could bring out a "Stereo" box with also all the early 60s tracks in stereo. I'm sure there are more stereo versions in the archives than the few tracks that were released so far.
Please not. The mono box is wonderful. Once you heard that you don't want to look elsewhere.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2021 02:40

Quote
Whale
Quote
wiredallnight
As a counterpart to the "Mono" box they could bring out a "Stereo" box with also all the early 60s tracks in stereo. I'm sure there are more stereo versions in the archives than the few tracks that were released so far.
Please not. The mono box is wonderful. Once you heard that you don't want to look elsewhere.

For the small minority group of people with two ears stereo could be a valuable alternative. The Stones need more diversity in their output!

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: ribbelchips ()
Date: December 3, 2021 11:09

The 'Stones in Mono' box sold out pretty quick. (esp. the vinyl version). Since it was released as 'limited' they couldn't simply produce more copy's, but there is a certain demand for the 64-70 catalog, If done right...

And I wonder what lies in the ABCKO vaults. I'm pretty sure all the finished songs were released, but the unfinished ones..yum

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: December 3, 2021 14:00

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
Whale
Quote
wiredallnight
As a counterpart to the "Mono" box they could bring out a "Stereo" box with also all the early 60s tracks in stereo. I'm sure there are more stereo versions in the archives than the few tracks that were released so far.
Please not. The mono box is wonderful. Once you heard that you don't want to look elsewhere.

For the small minority group of people with two ears stereo could be a valuable alternative. The Stones need more diversity in their output!

The mono box is revelatory. Doesn't mean we can't have a new stereo set, especially if we can get some true stereo versions of early cuts.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: December 3, 2021 16:46

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Albums like Aftermath and BTB are a joy to listen to in mono, imo.
.

I listened those two albums in mono, and they were a joy to listen, but I still think that the mono treatment misses something of the artistic intent of the albums. Of course, it could be that I am just used to to listen them in stereo, but especially AFTERMATH has that kind of airy and spacy, breathly feel that I think it is efficiently made possible by stereo; the instrument and vocal tracks are distinguished from each other rather deliciously, me thinks (in BETWEEN THE BUTTONS it goes a bit too far and 'artificial')

But every album all the way to OUT OF OUR HEADS (UK) should be in mono as initially intended, and the stereo treatment sound like fakes to my two ears. I am a bit puristic or stubborn here. But yeah, there could be expections... (and I am not any way against the idea of having them all in stereo!)

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-03 16:54 by Doxa.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: December 3, 2021 20:03

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman

Albums like Aftermath and BTB are a joy to listen to in mono, imo.
.

I listened those two albums in mono, and they were a joy to listen, but I still think that the mono treatment misses something of the artistic intent of the albums. Of course, it could be that I am just used to to listen them in stereo, but especially AFTERMATH has that kind of airy and spacy, breathly feel that I think it is efficiently made possible by stereo; the instrument and vocal tracks are distinguished from each other rather deliciously, me thinks (in BETWEEN THE BUTTONS it goes a bit too far and 'artificial')

But every album all the way to OUT OF OUR HEADS (UK) should be in mono as initially intended, and the stereo treatment sound like fakes to my two ears. I am a bit puristic or stubborn here. But yeah, there could be expections... (and I am not any way against the idea of having them all in stereo!)

- Doxa

Well, the stereo treatment of OUT OF OUR HEADS (UK) and earlier albums WERE indeed fakes - "electronically reprocessed stereo" that creates a wider sound image, but no true instrument separation like in "real" stereo.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: December 3, 2021 21:38

Rehashing the 1964-1970 stuff is played out. Some of them weren't recorded all that great to begin with. Remember they didn't really have a competent producer until Jimmy Miller in 1968. I've got Through The Past Darkly on SHM CD. The cuts are clean, but not revelatory. Also most of the early hits on the ABKCO SACD's. I'm not sure there's enough THERE there to squeeze out much more sonic magic than those formats already have.

It would have to be previously unreleased material to get me excited. Like the BBC release.

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: December 4, 2021 10:04

Stereo really wasn’t very good until 4-track recording became the ‘norm’ For the Beatles, A Hard Day’s Night was their first 4-track stereo LP, with the vocals in the centre. I’ve often wondered about the Stones and their ‘genuine’ 60’s stereo mixes. What was their first true stereo release? I’m under the impression their first two Decca LP’s were mono-only. Would that be correct?

Re: Lazy ABKCO (1964-1970 vinyl catalog)
Posted by: rbk ()
Date: December 4, 2021 19:20

An argument could be made that the depths have been plumbed of viable material and that the ABKCO albums should simply continue to exist as the masterworks they already are.



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