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GasLightStreetQuote
Hairball
And then there's the Ernie Cefalu story - not so sure about the details surrounding that controversy, but I do recall that evidently he claims the tongue was fully and solely his creation.
That's been established as 100% bullshit.
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georgie48
If Aldridge's book would not have existed, for sure the "USA version" of the Stones logo would have looked differently. But your assumption that Pasche would have seen the Day Tripper image, is not more than an assumption. When I started to "investigate" many years ago (via Chess) I also collected very many tongue/lips images that existed well before Aldridge's book, even from before he could even have developed his creative activities to the full. MisterDDDD just showed some!
I couldn't inspire myself to make a collage of around 400 images yet, probably never will. For sure, if Braun and Chess hadn't come up with their USA version, Ernie's contribution to the Braun collection would also never have surfaced.
MisterDDDD "asked" for a link concerning Braun's statements. New York Times ...
Braun admitted to me (after extensive mail corresponce with him and others) well before the NYT article, that his earlier assumption of Pasche knowing about Aldridge was not appropriate and hasty, purely based on he himself knowing about the book (also assumption).
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GasLightStreet
Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.
Apparently that was only for the disc jacket of the UK edition of the LP.
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georgie48Quote
GasLightStreet
Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.
Apparently that was only for the disc jacket of the UK edition of the LP.
When I bought Sticky Fingers (while in Liverpool) in April 1971, I was curious why the inlay logo (Pasche) was different from the one on the back sleeve of the album.
Well, the album sleeve was designed by Braun's company in the USA (and obviously had the "USA logo"), while the inlay was made in Europe and added there to the album. It "took" me 40+ years to figure out
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georgie48
Hi Hairball,
If Aldridge's book would not have existed, for sure the "USA version" of the Stones logo would have looked differently. But your assumption that Pasche would have seen the Day Tripper image, is not more than an assumption.
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CaptainCorellaQuote
Hairball
Given the massive popularity of the Beatles (even to this day), there's a high probability that even Pasche had seen the Aldridge version while browsing through the popular Beatles Songbook from '69.
They're too similar to think otherwise.
Whatever the case, thankful for the Beatles book and Aldridge, as without either the Stones design wouldn't come to exist as we know it.
Outstanding! Rarely have I agreed more emphatically with a posting.
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HairballQuote
CaptainCorellaQuote
Hairball
Given the massive popularity of the Beatles (even to this day), there's a high probability that even Pasche had seen the Aldridge version while browsing through the popular Beatles Songbook from '69.
They're too similar to think otherwise.
Whatever the case, thankful for the Beatles book and Aldridge, as without either the Stones design wouldn't come to exist as we know it.
Outstanding! Rarely have I agreed more emphatically with a posting.
Yes Captain, and many feel the same way regarding the origins of the supposed originality of the Stones tongue, or complete lack of originality I should say.
Comparison/overlapping evidence credited to Irix, and even with this some people remain closed minded and in complete denial of the possibilities as if there's absolutely no other way than their way:
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georgie48
Hi Hairball, I provided the b/w image to Irix, which I obtained from Braun personally many years ago. And as I mentioned earlier, It was Braun (and his team) who was inspired by Aldridge's DT image. So yes, Irix' work in fact proves, what Braun had said. However, If you superimpose the original Pasche image onto the DT image, well ... even if you superimpose Pasche's original version onto the "USA" version, you really need to do some serious remodelling. Just already only the one white line on the Pasche's version. Pasche didn't call Braun to say "he man, I realized I forgot one white line. Could you please add the second one to your model, please?" If even today you would make a flashy photograph of a pretty girl with shiny red colored full lips sticking her juicy tongue out, you would see "eyes" and "lines", like on Aldridge's image.
NOBODY in the U.K., not even any of the Stones, knew about what Braun was creating in his USA based company at the time in 1970. Braun was even afraid during his work that he could be sued and kept it all very low profile. But yes, he and not Pasche was inspired by Aldridge's image. Question to you: by whom was Aldridge inspired? Marilyn Monroe or Brigitte Bardot?
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Hairball
Along with the embellished Braun version, the similarities between the original Pasche image and the Aldridge design also seem clear to me.
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CaptainCorellaQuote
Hairball
Along with the embellished Braun version, the similarities between the original Pasche image and the Aldridge design also seem clear to me.
I'll focus on the Aldridge-to-Pasche part of this discussion.
Pasche is a year older than me. I do not know where he was born, but we all know that he lived in Brighton (UK) in the mid-1960s. I lived in Brighton (UK) at the same time.
My point here is that 'culturally' we have a very similar background.
It is very hard indeed to sufficiently stress the upheaval represented in UK life by the emergence of The Beatles (and later the Stones). Their every movement was covered and discussed endlessly.
I vividly recall a Saturday in early June 1967, walking down a street and hearing Sgt. Pepper coming out of almost every house window as almost everyone was listening to BBC Radio One's Kenny Everett playing it for the very first time. THAT's the sort of thing that happened.
John Pasche was an art student at (then) Brighton College of Art (now part of Brighton University). A few years later my partner was a student at the same College, and through her I met many fellow students and later staff, including someone who went off to be a Head of School at the Royal College of Art. (Aside: Next time I talk to that latter I'll ask her if she knew Pasche).
To me it's UTTERLY and TOTALLY inconceivable that anyone of my generation and background who was interested in (any combination of) art, The Beatles, cultural revolution, did not read and avidly study Aldridge's books. (Mine actually fell to pieces, and is now held in a slip case I made when I did a course at.... Brighton College of Art).
A lawyer would say that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Pasche was influenced by Aldridge. Any argument about the origin of the logo that ignores this aspect has no value.
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Hairball
Pasche went to look for his inspiration - right at the Aldridge tongue.
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CaptainCorellaQuote
Hairball
Pasche went to look for his inspiration - right at the Aldridge tongue.
Thanks, but the bit above is NOT what I was trying to say.
We have no way of knowing what Pasche actually did in terms of actions.
My point was, and is, that even if he didn't open Aldridge's book at all after the meeting(s) with Jagger he was without any doubt at all INFLUENCED by it (and all else that was going on).
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MisterDDDD
Popular style in the sixties/seventies. Peter Max et al.
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MisterDDDDQuote
MisterDDDD
Popular style in the sixties/seventies. Peter Max et al.
Yup.
Lotsa mouths, lotsa influences (like all art and music) no doubt.
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Hairball
Will try and leave it at that, and on a side note, you didn't give the details regarding the contributions/embellishments involving DiMiceli and Velez yet - is there something more you can add?
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georgie48
Hi Hairball, I provided the b/w image to Irix, which I obtained from Braun personally many years ago. And as I mentioned earlier, It was Braun (and his team) who was inspired by Aldridge's DT image.
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GasLightStreet
Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.
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georgie48
How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"? He could
And how about the person who first sliced an apple in half? How long ago is it, that the Beatles used that, far from original, half sliced boring image on their records? Was it celebrated?
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georgie48
How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"?