This question stems from the following observation (listed below) made by nmaillot in another thread.

Just how much is Bill Wyman missed by the Stones in the studio? On stage? At all?


From another thread:

Re: We've Discussed Ronnie, now how about Keith's Playing?
Posted by: nmaillot (IP Logged)
Date: November 3, 2005 19:32


Brown Sugar was not sucking during the SW/UJ tour.
It has been sucking since Wyman left: the song does not swing anymore.

I have been a fan for 10 years and I am just starting to understand how much Wyman was important.

Bill putts the roll in the Stones' rock. The Stones still rock, but Darryl doesn't roll. That's the whole idea. Everybody saying bass players are replaceable are nuts. He was, together with Charlie, the most important part of the muscial aspect of the band, while Mick and Keith did the show part.

I think that Darryl Jones is a wonderful bass player. E.g. the drive on the "@#$%&" version in Twickenham on Four Flicks is simply great. I've never heard the Stones rocking so hard. Or his bass figures on "Live With Me" during the "Bridges to Baylon" tour belong to the best the Stones ever performed live. In my opinion he is more prominent in the mix than Bill and that's right ... I would like to see him as an official Stone.

IMHO They lost something when Bill left...Bill and Charlie were one of the greatest "engine rooms" in Rock n Roll and listening to the pre DJ albums and shows confirms it for me..Some of the bass work on Tokyo 90 is fantastic.
I have had the pleasure of seeing Bill play with his present band and he's still got the "swing"...and dare I say looks like he's having more fun than his old band mates!!
I would love Bill to play in the UK next year with the Stones..but..yeah..

Nothing beats Charlie and Bill together, Bill was a Rolling Stone Jones is a great bass player but he's not a Rolling Stone just another hired hand.

I am going to a Bill Wyman concert sunday night so I will reply on how good he is monday afternoon. I have by the way seen two stones gigs and two rythmkings gig live wiyh Bill on the bass.

RobertJohnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that Darryl Jones is a wonderful bass
> player. E.g. the drive on the "@#$%&" version
> in Twickenham on Four Flicks is simply great. I've
> never heard the Stones rocking so hard. Or his
> bass figures on "Live With Me" during the "Bridges
> to Baylon" tour belong to the best the Stones ever
> performed live. In my opinion he is more prominent
> in the mix than Bill and that's right ... I would
> like to see him as an official Stone.

Yes, he's a great bass player. He does rock. But he doesn't roll. That's the problem. The Stones can't just rock. They have to rock 'n' roll!

Love In Vain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing beats Charlie and Bill together, Bill was
> a Rolling Stone Jones is a great bass player but
> he's not a Rolling Stone just another hired hand.


In my opinion Charlie Watts and Darryl Jones are the better rhythm section. Since '94 the Rolling Stones have performed many songs which are very rhythm-concentrated, and Darryl adds something new to the old songs, that they sounds fresh ... He has been in the band since Voodoo Lounge and participated all tours until today, so I would say that he is a real Stone. Particularly he has great merits on ABB.

RobertJohnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Love In Vain Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nothing beats Charlie and Bill together, Bill
> was
> > a Rolling Stone Jones is a great bass player
> but
> > he's not a Rolling Stone just another hired
> hand.
>
>
> In my opinion Charlie Watts and Darryl Jones are
> the better rhythm section. Since '94 the Rolling
> Stones have performed many songs which are very
> rhythm-concentrated, and Darryl adds something new
> to the old songs, that they sounds fresh ... He
> has been in the band since Voodoo Lounge and
> participated all tours until today, so I would say
> that he is a real Stone. Particularly he has great
> merits on ABB.


Fair comment, ive only seen the Stones live once since Bill left but i saw them 7 times from 73 with Bill my comments are based on Jones playing on record.

On this ongoing tour Bill Wyman is writing in his diary in mid september:

We left & returned backstage & relaxed. I signed many of my books & albums, Rhythm Kings CDs, & autographs, & had photos taken. A photographer gave me a CD of Photos he'd taken of us at 2 shows in Germany last year. He said that he had seen the Rolling Stones a week or so earlier in America, & said that Keith Richards, Ronnie Wood & Daryl's playing then, had no comparison to the playing of Andy, Albert, & I tonight.

The diary also tells has contact to the "stones office" and Watts multiple times every month.

Love In Vain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RobertJohnson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Love In Vain Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Nothing beats Charlie and Bill together,
> Bill
> > was
> > > a Rolling Stone Jones is a great bass
> player
> > but
> > > he's not a Rolling Stone just another
> hired
> > hand.
> >
> >
> > In my opinion Charlie Watts and Darryl Jones
> are
> > the better rhythm section. Since '94 the
> Rolling
> > Stones have performed many songs which are
> very
> > rhythm-concentrated, and Darryl adds
> something new
> > to the old songs, that they sounds fresh ...
> He
> > has been in the band since Voodoo Lounge and
> > participated all tours until today, so I
> would say
> > that he is a real Stone. Particularly he has
> great
> > merits on ABB.
>
>
> Fair comment, ive only seen the Stones live once
> since Bill left but i saw them 7 times from 73
> with Bill my comments are based on Jones playing
> on record.


You can hear what I mean if you see "Star, Star" on "Four Flicks" or the same song on the "Closer to Close" rehearsals, Toronto 1997.

I listened to Undercover recently after many years. Bill's playing truely stands out and make many of the songs chug along like Darryl has not done since IMO. Darryl is tight with Charlie's back beat and follows Keith's rythmn but Bill's bass lines flowed (rolled) with the back beat and guitar adding more feel and flair.

I would like to ask the following question:
Which songs have suffered the most from Bill Wyman's departure?

For me:

1-Miss You
2-Tumbling Dice
3-Brown Sugar
4-Sympathy For The Devil
5-You Can't Always Get What You Want

Umm...Reptile, in regards to your statement: "He was, together with Charlie, the most important part of the muscial aspect of the band, while Mick and Keith did the show part."

wouldn't you think that writing about 500 songs would make Jagger/Richards the "most important musical aspect of the band"???

not knocking Bill....but there's a LOT more to Mick/Keef than just the "show" part of the band, man....come on...read the songwriting credits on basically EVERY song...

you CAN replace Bill (as the Stones have clearly proven)...it may not be the same, or as good, but he IS replaceable...3 albums and 4 tours proves this in my mind....just my opinion.....

you CANNOT replace Mick or Keith....

IMHO...

...or Charlie.

The Thing with Bill was that he could carry the song with his groove and he played like no one else giving the Stones a unique sound. Keith, Mick Taylor + Ronnie could hold back and Bill would keep a melody going. There are some songs where the bass line was integral and he often provided a counter rhythm to the guitars. You can't find a Daryl era tune where he plays a memorable riff. Daryl plays as little as possible and with no personality. He's probably easy to play with because of this but this also provides little pay off. The only memorable bass lines that I can think of post Bill are LowDown and Anybody Seen My Baby? and those feature guest bassists: Blondie Chaplin and some other guy.

The Bass is almost non existant on ABB. On the 40 Licks new tracks Daryl is loud and clear and you can hear how boring and ordinary his playing is. He played in Madonna's band for crying out loud!

The Stones are definitely 4/5 as good w/o Bill.

nmaillot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would like to ask the following question:
> Which songs have suffered the most from Bill
> Wyman's departure?
>
> For me:
>
> 1-Miss You
>

Miss You in concert (either with Bill or without him) doesnt come anywhere close to the brilliance of the studio version. It seems to divide people (more so I think because the song has been played to death in concert) but the original is a masterpiece...and for me is Bill's greatest moment on record.

Its a song that I thought was particularly tiresome and annoying live from 1989-98 but on the few occasions that they played it on the Licks tour it was stripped down and was much better.

How much do the Stones miss Bill Wyman?

Don't think the Stones miss him, but the fans sure do!

Markdog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I listened to Undercover recently after many
> years. Bill's playing truely stands out and make
> many of the songs chug along like Darryl has not
> done since IMO. Darryl is tight with Charlie's
> back beat and follows Keith's rythmn but Bill's
> bass lines flowed (rolled) with the back beat and
> guitar adding more feel and flair.


On Undercover Wyman plays bass only on 5 trax.

C

"The Bass is almost non existant on ABB."

What?? Many people complained that the bass is too prominent on ABB..

stickyfingers101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Umm...Reptile, in regards to your statement: "He
> was, together with Charlie, the most important
> part of the muscial aspect of the band, while Mick
> and Keith did the show part."
>
> wouldn't you think that writing about 500 songs
> would make Jagger/Richards the "most important
> musical aspect of the band"???
>
> not knocking Bill....but there's a LOT more to
> Mick/Keef than just the "show" part of the band,
> man....come on...read the songwriting credits on
> basically EVERY song...
>
> you CAN replace Bill (as the Stones have clearly
> proven)...it may not be the same, or as good, but
> he IS replaceable...3 albums and 4 tours proves
> this in my mind....just my opinion.....
>
> you CANNOT replace Mick or Keith....
>
> IMHO...
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, but I meant the performing aspect. Those songs wouldn't have been half as historical and sometimes legendary without Charlie or Bill, although it may seem that way nowadays. And as for the replacing part- if you ask me, the Stones' sound has drastically changed after Bill left and Darryl joined. It suprises me most that they have gone for an obvious and typical jazz-musician in a hardrock band. Bass isn't called bass just for the hell of it. It provides the base for a track, and when the whole base changes, the band can still play the same, but it sounds completely different. Listen to the difference between the sound of Dirty Work and Steel Wheels. There is very little. Then Voodoo Lounge. COMPLETELY different sound from Steel Wheels. Regardless of my opinion of Darryl, I think the band's sound has drastically changed, and they're trying to fix it by turning up other instruments like the guitars and drums? Nonsense.

Reptile,
I think its all in your head, Bill Wyman is hardly on Dirty Work. The bass is played by Ronnie Wood on most songs, Ian Nevelle is on bass for one or two. I think the only songs that have Wyman on it are One Hit and Harleum Shuffle.

I feel the same as many of you do: the lack of groove / roll in the rolling stones songs. The songs sounds very flat, they somehow stop being a R&B band to be just a rock band and for me Darryl plays like Dee Dee Ramone, like a punk.

But I don't blame Darryl for the lack of roll. Who wrote the new songs ? do you think is possible to put some roll in a song like Rought Justice or She Saw me Coming ?

the problem is not in the bass, the problem are in the songs, even Bill can`t put any roll in this songs.

with a few exemptions like Too Tight of course.

Bye
fernando

Hound Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reptile,
> I think its all in your head, Bill Wyman is hardly
> on Dirty Work. The bass is played by Ronnie Wood
> on most songs, Ian Nevelle is on bass for one or
> two. I think the only songs that have Wyman on it
> are One Hit and Harleum Shuffle.
>
> Gonna find my way to heaven, cause I did my time
> in hell

Yes, but Darryl's a jazz player. Ronnie is also a rock 'n' roll bass player and would have been a fair substitute for bass.

fernando:


Bill Wyman can put a roll on most any song--it's just his style. Many songs on ABB have Keith + Ronnie playing similarly to Some Girls era but there's no groove underneath. But who knows how Bill would play today. I don't think he plays the same solo as he did w/ the Stones.

is "Bass" REALLY called "BASS" b/c it provides the "BASE" of a song?

seriously....

where does the name come from? Latin? Greek? meaning?

I know that "cannon" comes from the Latin "Cana" (spell) meaning "Tube"...not so sure about "bass" though..

I think it's rooted in Latin/Italian...soprano, basso, that kinda thing.

All I have to say is that I'm so thankful I got to see Bill play with the Stones on the SW Tour '89 (Sullivan Stadium, Foxboro, MA...17yrs. old at the time). Although the show was a little too polished...actually the whole tour was for that matter....I can say that I saw all five Stones play together. I'll never forget it. Unfortunately I kind of lost sight of the Stones when I was in college '91-'95 doing the grunge/punk/alternative thing. I never saw Bill play with them again and I still kick myself to this day. There is such a hole in the band where Bill once stood.

"I'm the bleeding volcano"

I don't think they miss him at all...

My reference: the VooDoo Lounge Tour... the first major tour with Daryll Jones... you could tell within the first song (Not Fade Away), that DJ has a monster sound and great rhythm...

Secondly, look at the Licks Tour... their musicianship has never been better.

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

Local27....so was that YOU who passed me that joint in 1989?

I spent 9 months in rehab thanks to you!!!