Even if it is not the "worst tour ever", I certainly do not see anyone enthusiastically proclaiming it to be the best tour ever. Not even close. While I do not agree with some of the other stuff said I do agree that DJ is a HUGE part of the 'different' sounding Stones. Totally agree with there not being any more swing in the music. Which kind of suprises me because DJ coming from Jazz should have been able to play cicles around Wyman. On paper ta least. Just goes to show how much can be said for conviction and sheer balls. Never been much of a fan of Wyman as a man, but as a Bassist and a ballsy dude, I rank him tops.
Whoi lese is to blame? Is it just Keith? Ron? Leavell? Age? Horns? Cohl? Us, the audience? All of the above?

Uuuuh, that is a tough question. It is hard to analyze this. For me it feels like their feeling and inspiriation is gone. Technically, it sounds like they don't swing anymore. They still rock, but they don't roll anymore. It might also have to do with the fact that their live arrangements try to recreate the studio versions as close as possible since a couple of years. This worked during Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle and Voodoo Lounge, but began to stink around the BTB tour.

Just listen to songs like Under My Thumb live from BTB compared to Under My Thumb live 1981/1982 - it sounds like it has lost its life and transformed into a pale shadow of its studio original whereas in 1981/82 this song lived a life of its own. Or Stray Cat Blues from the Licks tour - totally lifeless, and compare this to the very different 1969 live version which had little in common with the studio version from Beggar's Banquet, recorded just one year before.

Their obvious lack of imagination shows when you listen to Sympathy For The Devil nowadays. What is this? Something that sends you shivers down your spine? No, it has degraded into a boring stinker that no one in the band seems to be comfortable or even enjoy to play.

It is difficult to make out certain musicians who might be responsible for the obvious downfall of the Stones as a live band. It's just my feeling that the band is not really into it any more. The feeling and the inspiration is gone, most notably when you actually hear Woody perform. Keith is able to hide this a little bit better than Ronnie, although even he does not play as he used to play. Jagger still sounds very good, he is the most professional of them, but even he can't disguise the fact that although he sounds good he also sounds uninspired at the same time.

All in all, this tour adds to my impression that since a couple of years, starting with the BTB tour, they seem to have lost "it" - the inspiration, the fire, the imagination, the vision..whatever - the No Security arena shows being the one exception, at least the 9 shows I have seen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-24 17:07 by retired_dog.

father time + drink & drugs

Cohl.

i have to disagree.......i have been to 34 shows.....3 so far had a great time ....show is good.....my girl freind went for her first show and was blown away!!! what exactly is wrong or your beef i dont see it???

right on..tat2you....i've seen them live since 1975 and this is one of their best...the only problem i have with this tour is the age of the fans...
at the philly 1 show, it looked like a old age home..ha..(i'm 47) so i'm in the same boat...ha.. the hershey show was better because it looked like the fans were younger and really into seeing the stones...
the problem is the price of many of the tickets... most young fans can't afford $450.00 tickets...so you will get more rich old stones fans that just don't go wild like they used too!
but if you like guitars and the rolling stones this is right up there with 1975...just that jaggers voice is a lot better today!

interesting points, retired dog. yeah, it's hard to say "anyone" is to blame, per se. I do agree with Leonard that father time and the drink/drug thing has much to do with it - once Ronnie got taken out of the equation (really started in '89 - the weave totally disappeared then) it caused entire paradigm of the band to shift to a more "scripted" stage approach....and it's gone fairly steadily downhill since. Now that that they've completely abandoned taking ANY chances on stage, they've pretty much become a parody act. Sad.

Who is to blame for your failure to enjoy this current tour ??

I'd put the blame squarely where it belongs:

1) Your Audiologist... obviously your hearing aid isn't working

2) Your Optometrist, because obviously you can't see the show very well nor the rest of us thoroughly enjoying it...

Is it the "worst tour ever"... absurd to suggest that...

The stones don't "swing" anymore because of DJ... well if that were true, then they wouldn't have "swung" on Forty Licks or Voodoo Lounge tour... both awesome tours by anyone's standards.

I just can't help but think that the majority of people calling this "the worst tour ever" have not yet been to any of the shows, but have "attended by setlist"

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

"began to stink around the BTB tour"

That's true.
I would like to identify exactly what has changed at that time.
I am not sure it is DJ: he was already with them during the VL tour.

nmaillot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "began to stink around the BTB tour"
>
> That's true.
> I would like to identify exactly what has changed
> at that time.
> I am not sure it is DJ: he was already with them
> during the VL tour.
>

I am also not sure that Daryl is the one to blame. During Voodoo Lounge, I left every show feeling totally satisfied - "Yeah! Good one!" Some shows were better than others, but I still felt that in general the Stones were a f...ing good live act back then.

During BTB, (at least for me) it began to feel wrong. At first, I blamed it on the weak sound, blamed it on their new speaker system. The sound did not "grab" me like it it used to grab me...a strange feeling. I have seen some good shows during BTB, mind you, but my general feeling was that it was a bit lesser than Voodoo Lounge.

I dunno what it is exactly. But I can imagine that as a musician, it might be somewhat depressing that one has to play more or less the same warhorses night after night to keep the majority of the crowds satisfied. I simply do not believe that a musician like Keith still gets his kicks when he churns out the opening riff of Satisfaction or, let's say Honky Tonk Women. Doing it over and over again, it loses its magic and becomes just like a normal daytime job. It's not really bad, but it ain't exciting either. Let's not forget: these guys are true professionals after so many years. They can go on stage, play on autopilot, and still many people in the crowd believe they have seen the best show in their lifetimes. And that's the reason why we have all these confusing discussions right here on this board. I am talking about their live music. I am not talking about their live show. No doubt that they are still able to deliver a great show which makes a lot of people happy.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-24 19:14 by retired_dog.

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> interesting points, retired dog. yeah, it's hard
> to say "anyone" is to blame, per se. I do agree
> with Leonard that father time and the drink/drug
> thing has much to do with it - once Ronnie got
> taken out of the equation (really started in '89 -
> the weave totally disappeared then) it caused
> entire paradigm of the band to shift to a more
> "scripted" stage approach....and it's gone fairly
> steadily downhill since. Now that that they've
> completely abandoned taking ANY chances on stage,
> they've pretty much become a parody act. Sad.

Tough words, T&A ... "parody act"...but yes, there is some truth in them. They play safe, the abandoned taking any chances on stage, the basically play a greatest hits sets, they obviosuly have little confidence in their new album...
...well, I would say that they have pretty much become a nostalgia act, and if nothing changes, they will turn into a parody act pretty soon.

I have to add that I saw them at the Olympia in 2003 after the Stade de France disaster. The magic was back for one night: Even Honky Tonk Woman and Tumbling Dice were sounding so good.

nmaillot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to add that I saw them at the Olympia in
> 2003 after the Stade de France disaster. The magic
> was back for one night: Even Honky Tonk Woman and
> Tumbling Dice were sounding so good.


Well, that's probably because a theatre show is not the usual routine for the Stones...it's not the "daytime job", it's more adventurous...different sezlist, rare songs...musically challenging. Even the warhorses obviously benefit from a different surrounding...

As a picker myself, I have to play some songs I'm truly sick of to please the majority of the audience - i.e. Gimme Three Steps. But I can still get off on watching somebody enjoy themselves. Same must be true of Keith playing HTW or JJF.

Cohl would be the main one to blaim. A good second would be Daryl Jones for taking the roll out of the rock with the Stones with his jazzy playing.

Good point, Elmo.

Elmo Lewis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a picker myself, I have to play some songs I'm
> truly sick of to please the majority of the
> audience - i.e. Gimme Three Steps. But I can still
> get off on watching somebody enjoy themselves.
> Same must be true of Keith playing HTW or JJF.

Elmo's with Lynyrd Skynyrd! I never suspected that!

the swing component of their live sound is not what it once was, or so it seems. however, it's possible that the frame of reference for those of us who hold that opinion has been altered beyond the point of subjectivity- and although i swear i hear a difference, live--boots--studio, it's subtle.
that they no longer lift me off the ground, well, maybe it's me who doesn't swing anymore?

nah....they don't swing like they used to - and leonard has got the why.

The only problem with the tour is the ticket prices and the low number of songs they play.

retired_dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nmaillot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "began to stink around the BTB tour"
> >
> > That's true.
> > I would like to identify exactly what has
> changed
> > at that time.
> > I am not sure it is DJ: he was already with
> them
> > during the VL tour.
> >
>
> I am also not sure that Daryl is the one to blame.
> During Voodoo Lounge, I left every show feeling
> totally satisfied - "Yeah! Good one!" Some shows
> were better than others, but I still felt that in
> general the Stones were a f...ing good live act
> back then.
>
> During BTB, (at least for me) it began to feel
> wrong.

Did ANY of you people attend a Forty Licks show ?? That was a phenomenal tour...

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

BornOnTheBayou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Did ANY of you people attend a Forty Licks show ??
> That was a phenomenal tour...

Yes, of course...are 18 Forty Licks shows enough to tell you I know what I'm talking about?

Just keep analyzing the s..t out of everything and don't enjoy one moment of the tour.

My only complaint like most in this forum is a more varied setlist. These guys are in thier sixties and the day is coming soon when we won't be able to enjoy them live anymore. So I will take what I can get until that day comes.


P.S. Do not move forward, just keep pissing and mouning about how it use to be.


" lets take a walk just you and me and talk of days gone by"

BornOnTheBayou Wrote:

> Did ANY of you people attend a Forty Licks show ??
> That was a phenomenal tour...
if you like Chuck

I know that Daryl sure hurts the recordings. He plays like a lifeless machine. Listen to the Wyman songs--the bassline almost carries the song sometimes. They don't have basslines now--the new songs have a big hole in the middle. Rough Justice sounds best 'cause the guitars are cranked up in the mix. (That's another issue--why are the guitars so low in the mix of the other songs?) If Wyman won't record they need to get someone else or have Keith and Woody do all the studio bass playing. B2B benefited from having guest players although many songs were buried in overproduction. My favorite was "Lowdown" w/ Blondie Chaplin--good bite to his sound. He tours w/ Stones as backup singer and sometimes guitarist--put him on Bass!

virgil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just keep analyzing the s..t out of everything and
> don't enjoy one moment of the tour.
>
>

"an unanalyzed tour is one not worth attending"

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> virgil Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just keep analyzing the s..t out of
> everything and
> > don't enjoy one moment of the tour.
> >
> >
>
> "an unanalyzed tour is one not worth attending"
>
>
This cracks me up. What was the name of the message board on which the Some Girls tour was analyzed. I think there's a bit of incongruency re: time and space with this post.

Michael Cohl

Who is to blame? People's unrealistic expectations and their faulty memories regarding some truly crappy shows the Stones have played in the past. I have heard many boots from '76 where they were awful, for example. Keith was so @#$%& up he could barely stand up, much less play his guitar.

retired_dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BornOnTheBayou Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Did ANY of you people attend a Forty Licks
> show ??
> > That was a phenomenal tour...
>
> Yes, of course...are 18 Forty Licks shows enough
> to tell you I know what I'm talking about?
>


Well, let's see...

First of all, I'm not sure if you agree with the other posters who say that the Stones "went downhill" after BTB, since you attended 18 Forty Licks shows, I'm assuming you ENJOYED most of them, or you wouldn't keep attending, correct... or ???

SO, can I assume that you thought 40 Licks was a great tour, considering you would have to be a masochist to attend 18 bad shows.

NOW, all of a sudden, they've gone from a tour you saw 18 shows on to a "parody act" to use your words... in just 2 or 3 years...

Curious, which shows on this ABB Tour did you see that were parody acts ??


"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."

We all are to an extent. We all expect so much from them and feel let down when we don't get it. Just my opinion.