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Baxter Thwaites
Vastly overrated. Not to say they were a bad band (they weren't) but they are nowhere near what their most devoted fans claim them to be.

this is true of any band. Do you have any specific weaknesses in mind?

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cc
what exactly did Strummer and Jones split over? Because musically it seems like they went in somewhat similarly "forward" directions. With the rapping and drum machines, Cut the Crap is not so retro-conservative as the mohawk icon makes it seem. Wasn't there common ground there with what BAD was doing?

Sandinista is over the years a more fascinating listen than London Calling, admittedly a more flawless album.

Numerous reasons for the split:

1). Jones was growing apart from the band. He was always looking for the next thing, musically, and wanted The Clash to incorporate elements of his latest enthusiasm (s) into their sound. At the time it was hip hop. Strummer and Simenon (at best a very limited musician - his bass parts on the albums were mostly played by either Norman Watt-Roy of The Blockheads or overdubbed by Jones) were extremely conservative, musically: Strummer favoured balls to the wall rock, Simenon was heavily into reggae.

2). The rest of the group hated Jones's mix of Combat Rock. At the time the album was set to be a double. Jones took Strummer (an Glynn Johns) editing the original mix and running to order to make a single album, quite badly.

3). Once they ousted Topper Headon from the group (the band's other talented musician), Jones lost his ally/buffer/musical cohort.

4). Jones was a prima donna. Strummer famously described his temperament as "Elizabeth Taylor in a bad mood" on the Westway to the World documentary. He said that Jones became impossible to work with by 1983, persistently turning up late and refusing to tour.

5). Jones was doing coke and largely living in New York with Ellen Foley in the early 80s. Combat Rock was mostly recorded at Electric Ladyland in New York, because Jones refused to work anywhere else.

6). Bernie Rhodes - the manager - drove a wedge between Strummer/Simenon and Jones. He and Jones had never gotten on. And Jones had been instrumental in sacking Rhodes in the late 70s.

And you're right about Cut The Crap. It's not without interest, and Rhodes was even ahead of his time in a way. The trouble is the bulk of the songs were rubbish (those Sham 69 choruses), unfinished (they used a lot of Strummer's demo vocals), and the touring band barely played on it. There was no In The Pouring Rain on it either.

In top 5 of all time...

Stones
Clash
Who
Zep
Social D

Deltics - the Rat Patrol tape was originally leaked by Topper Headon. In the mid-80s he was a junkie and strapped for cash. He took to selling his gold discs and other Clash stuff (including tapes) to a record shop off Tottenham Court Road in London. One of the things he sold was the Rat Patrol session tape, which eventually made it onto the bootleg circuit. It sounded pretty poor. This had everything on it, bar Walk Evil Talk.

The version of Rat Patrol you've put up is said to have turned up at RCA records. It's a much better copy, and it has another track. These aren't the full sessions though. A few songs were recorded in London, including Midnight to Stevens and a version of Know Your Rights which has a smattering of applause at the end and slightly different lyrics from the Rat Patrol version. It's actually a lot better - rawer, more urgent. That's leaked. Midnight to Stevens is on Clash on Broadway. Great, haunting song it is too.

Done!

[www.megaupload.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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Baxter Thwaites
Vastly overrated. Not to say they were a bad band (they weren't) but they are nowhere near what their most devoted fans claim them to be.

this is true of any band. Do you have any specific weaknesses in mind?

well not really,the rolling stones are about ten times better than the beatles or led zeppelin but sell far fewer records and are rated well below where they should be in the mainstream.

the clash were o.k,you can hear a big influence on U2,which given the status of dublins finest is no small claim.the problem was the clash were a punk band and the whole idea of punk was the anti-stadium,big record deal,rock star thing.but the first chance they got in america what did they do?jump on a big stadium tour with the who.

they got really roughed up-i know this is a mainly european site but believe me i remember that tour and the clash got their heads handed to them.people were laughing at them and throwing things.still,they recovered and ended up with a few mtv hits and did quite well in the end.its all relative,if i could find a band that good in this day and age i'd follow them from gig to gig and pay $150 a ticket.

A Fan of course!

2 1 2 0

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Baxter Thwaites
Vastly overrated. Not to say they were a bad band (they weren't) but they are nowhere near what their most devoted fans claim them to be.

this is true of any band. Do you have any specific weaknesses in mind?

Not really. It's just that when you talk to Clash fans they talk as if they are the most significant band in the world .... ever. When in fact they are the most significant band to Clash fans.

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Nikolai

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cc
what exactly did Strummer and Jones split over? Because musically it seems like they went in somewhat similarly "forward" directions. With the rapping and drum machines, Cut the Crap is not so retro-conservative as the mohawk icon makes it seem. Wasn't there common ground there with what BAD was doing?

Sandinista is over the years a more fascinating listen than London Calling, admittedly a more flawless album.

Numerous reasons for the split:

1). Jones was growing apart from the band. He was always looking for the next thing, musically, and wanted The Clash to incorporate elements of his latest enthusiasm (s) into their sound. At the time it was hip hop. Strummer and Simenon (at best a very limited musician - his bass parts on the albums were mostly played by either Norman Watt-Roy of The Blockheads or overdubbed by Jones) were extremely conservative, musically: Strummer favoured balls to the wall rock, Simenon was heavily into reggae.

2). The rest of the group hated Jones's mix of Combat Rock. At the time the album was set to be a double. Jones took Strummer (an Glynn Johns) editing the original mix and running to order to make a single album, quite badly.

3). Once they ousted Topper Headon from the group (the band's other talented musician), Jones lost his ally/buffer/musical cohort.

4). Jones was a prima donna. Strummer famously described his temperament as "Elizabeth Taylor in a bad mood" on the Westway to the World documentary. He said that Jones became impossible to work with by 1983, persistently turning up late and refusing to tour.

5). Jones was doing coke and largely living in New York with Ellen Foley in the early 80s. Combat Rock was mostly recorded at Electric Ladyland in New York, because Jones refused to work anywhere else.

6). Bernie Rhodes - the manager - drove a wedge between Strummer/Simenon and Jones. He and Jones had never gotten on. And Jones had been instrumental in sacking Rhodes in the late 70s.

And you're right about Cut The Crap. It's not without interest, and Rhodes was even ahead of his time in a way. The trouble is the bulk of the songs were rubbish (those Sham 69 choruses), unfinished (they used a lot of Strummer's demo vocals), and the touring band barely played on it. There was no In The Pouring Rain on it either.

Nikolai- or anyone else who knows- is there a book about the Clash that explains all this in great detail, along with the rest of the band's story?

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bustedtrousers

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Nikolai

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cc
what exactly did Strummer and Jones split over? Because musically it seems like they went in somewhat similarly "forward" directions. With the rapping and drum machines, Cut the Crap is not so retro-conservative as the mohawk icon makes it seem. Wasn't there common ground there with what BAD was doing?

Sandinista is over the years a more fascinating listen than London Calling, admittedly a more flawless album.

Numerous reasons for the split:

1). Jones was growing apart from the band. He was always looking for the next thing, musically, and wanted The Clash to incorporate elements of his latest enthusiasm (s) into their sound. At the time it was hip hop. Strummer and Simenon (at best a very limited musician - his bass parts on the albums were mostly played by either Norman Watt-Roy of The Blockheads or overdubbed by Jones) were extremely conservative, musically: Strummer favoured balls to the wall rock, Simenon was heavily into reggae.

2). The rest of the group hated Jones's mix of Combat Rock. At the time the album was set to be a double. Jones took Strummer (an Glynn Johns) editing the original mix and running to order to make a single album, quite badly.

3). Once they ousted Topper Headon from the group (the band's other talented musician), Jones lost his ally/buffer/musical cohort.

4). Jones was a prima donna. Strummer famously described his temperament as "Elizabeth Taylor in a bad mood" on the Westway to the World documentary. He said that Jones became impossible to work with by 1983, persistently turning up late and refusing to tour.

5). Jones was doing coke and largely living in New York with Ellen Foley in the early 80s. Combat Rock was mostly recorded at Electric Ladyland in New York, because Jones refused to work anywhere else.

6). Bernie Rhodes - the manager - drove a wedge between Strummer/Simenon and Jones. He and Jones had never gotten on. And Jones had been instrumental in sacking Rhodes in the late 70s.

And you're right about Cut The Crap. It's not without interest, and Rhodes was even ahead of his time in a way. The trouble is the bulk of the songs were rubbish (those Sham 69 choruses), unfinished (they used a lot of Strummer's demo vocals), and the touring band barely played on it. There was no In The Pouring Rain on it either.

Nikolai- or anyone else who knows- is there a book about the Clash that explains all this in great detail, along with the rest of the band's story?

The two best ones are both by Marcus Gray.

The Return of the Last Gang in Town tells the story from beginning to bitter end, and ends at Joe's death.

Route 19 Revisited is about the making of London Calling, but it's also a parallel history of the Clash.

Those are the ones I'd recommend.

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Baxter Thwaites

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cc

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Baxter Thwaites
Vastly overrated. Not to say they were a bad band (they weren't) but they are nowhere near what their most devoted fans claim them to be.

this is true of any band. Do you have any specific weaknesses in mind?

Not really. It's just that when you talk to Clash fans they talk as if they are the most significant band in the world .... ever. When in fact they are the most significant band to Clash fans.

That's true of all fans, surely. The word fan derives from fanatic, after all. And fanatics are not known for their moderation. Try telling a Nick Cave fan you don't think he's made a decent record in thirteen years. Or A Beatles fan that the moptops are overrated. Better still, try having a rational argument with an Oasis fan.

I'm a big Clash fan, but I don't think they're "the most significant band in the world", but, along with the Sex Pistols/Public Image and The Jam, they're certainly one of the most influential to have come out of punk - certainly in so far as British music goes. Unlike the Pistols and The Jam, The Clash's influence has been hugely positive. The former gave us Oasis and Britpop - for which, no thanks. The latter gave us Happy Mondays and Gorillaz, for which thanks very much indeed.

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Nikolai

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bustedtrousers

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Nikolai

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cc
what exactly did Strummer and Jones split over? Because musically it seems like they went in somewhat similarly "forward" directions. With the rapping and drum machines, Cut the Crap is not so retro-conservative as the mohawk icon makes it seem. Wasn't there common ground there with what BAD was doing?

Sandinista is over the years a more fascinating listen than London Calling, admittedly a more flawless album.

Numerous reasons for the split:

1). Jones was growing apart from the band. He was always looking for the next thing, musically, and wanted The Clash to incorporate elements of his latest enthusiasm (s) into their sound. At the time it was hip hop. Strummer and Simenon (at best a very limited musician - his bass parts on the albums were mostly played by either Norman Watt-Roy of The Blockheads or overdubbed by Jones) were extremely conservative, musically: Strummer favoured balls to the wall rock, Simenon was heavily into reggae.

2). The rest of the group hated Jones's mix of Combat Rock. At the time the album was set to be a double. Jones took Strummer (an Glynn Johns) editing the original mix and running to order to make a single album, quite badly.

3). Once they ousted Topper Headon from the group (the band's other talented musician), Jones lost his ally/buffer/musical cohort.

4). Jones was a prima donna. Strummer famously described his temperament as "Elizabeth Taylor in a bad mood" on the Westway to the World documentary. He said that Jones became impossible to work with by 1983, persistently turning up late and refusing to tour.

5). Jones was doing coke and largely living in New York with Ellen Foley in the early 80s. Combat Rock was mostly recorded at Electric Ladyland in New York, because Jones refused to work anywhere else.

6). Bernie Rhodes - the manager - drove a wedge between Strummer/Simenon and Jones. He and Jones had never gotten on. And Jones had been instrumental in sacking Rhodes in the late 70s.

And you're right about Cut The Crap. It's not without interest, and Rhodes was even ahead of his time in a way. The trouble is the bulk of the songs were rubbish (those Sham 69 choruses), unfinished (they used a lot of Strummer's demo vocals), and the touring band barely played on it. There was no In The Pouring Rain on it either.

Nikolai- or anyone else who knows- is there a book about the Clash that explains all this in great detail, along with the rest of the band's story?

The two best ones are both by Marcus Gray.

The Return of the Last Gang in Town tells the story from beginning to bitter end, and ends at Joe's death.

Route 19 Revisited is about the making of London Calling, but it's also a parallel history of the Clash.

Those are the ones I'd recommend.

¡Ay, caramba! That was fast Nikolai, I only posted the question a few minutes ago. Muchos Gracias!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-25 01:44 by bustedtrousers.

Thanks for that upload Deltics, sound quality is surprisingly good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-25 01:46 by bustedtrousers.

Like some other of the punk/new wave bands they had a good first album but became worse after. Rock and pop collapsed after 1976 and have not recovered since. These bands are all on a lower level and were often overrated. IMO, the Stranglers and Television were the best bands of that era.

For a few years there (1977-80), the Clash were the most exciting band in the world, bar none. As Pete Townshend put it at the time, "I wouldn't pay to see the Who. I'd see the Clash instead."

Sure, they didn't always play in tune, and they were often sloppy. But they played with an energy and commitment that couldn't be denied. Things began to fall apart in 1981 when Topper Headon's drumming became unreliable on account of his heroin addiction and collapsed entirely in 1983 when Mick Jones got fired in Bernie's revenge.

I think the Runaways were much more rock & roll and had more energy than just about any punk band, and they weren't any more "Monkees" than the Pistols or Clash, both manipulated by mind f*cking managers. Just so you know, I have been a Clash-fan since 1978, and was a Pistols fan when they happened. The Damned were damned good too.

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lsbz
Like some other of the punk/new wave bands they had a good first album but became worse after. Rock and pop collapsed after 1976 and have not recovered since. These bands are all on a lower level and were often overrated. IMO, the Stranglers and Television were the best bands of that era.

Glad you mentioned The Stranglers - SUPERB band. Their classic UA/EMI stuff hasn't dated one bit. The punk-era stuff is peerless, but I also love the three albums they made after the punk bubble deflated: The Raven, The Meninblack (way ahead of the curve) and La Folie, a surprisingly dark album, despite its softer tones.

The Stranglers should be mentioned alongside the Pistols, The Clash and The Damned - they sold more records than the three of them combined, and their stuff was harsh and threatening, and very much steeped in social critique. But they're not because, like The Police, they were effectively bandwagon hoppers and 'real' musicians. Plus they beat up all the journalists who've gone on to become caretakers of the punk mythos.

Television were great too. I agree. But hardly a punk band. They were 'of punk'.

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ab
For a few years there (1977-80), the Clash were the most exciting band in the world, bar none. As Pete Townshend put it at the time, "I wouldn't pay to see the Who. I'd see the Clash instead."

Sure, they didn't always play in tune, and they were often sloppy. But they played with an energy and commitment that couldn't be denied. Things began to fall apart in 1981 when Topper Headon's drumming became unreliable on account of his heroin addiction and collapsed entirely in 1983 when Mick Jones got fired in Bernie's revenge.

Joe Strummer acknowledged that it was over for the band when they fired Topper. Getting rid of Mick Jones was tantamount to suicide.

The story of Clash Mark 2 has been told in a book by erstwhile guitarist, Vince White. The book is called Out of Control. It paints VERY unflattering pictures of Strummer (spineless and lead by the nose by Bernie Rhodes), Paul Simenon (a bimbo who's more interested in getting his hair right than anything else; he freely admits he didn't play on any of The Clash albums), and Rhodes and Kosmo Vinyl.

This would be ok, but the whole tone of the book is bitter, angry and twisted (very). Reading it is sometimes akin to being trapped in a lift with a nutcase.

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Nikolai
The Stranglers should be mentioned alongside the Pistols, The Clash and The Damned - they sold more records than the three of them combined, and their stuff was harsh and threatening, and very much steeped in social critique. But they're not because, like The Police, they were effectively bandwagon hoppers and 'real' musicians.

Yes; more mature and playing in the tradition of rock. They had some good singles.

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Nikolai
Television were great too. I agree. But hardly a punk band. They were 'of punk'.

I think that they were considered New Wave, the American version of punk, at the time. They were also real, very good musicians.

Most of the wellknown eighties bands weren't bad but not real good either.

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Nikolai

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ab
For a few years there (1977-80), the Clash were the most exciting band in the world, bar none. As Pete Townshend put it at the time, "I wouldn't pay to see the Who. I'd see the Clash instead."

Sure, they didn't always play in tune, and they were often sloppy. But they played with an energy and commitment that couldn't be denied. Things began to fall apart in 1981 when Topper Headon's drumming became unreliable on account of his heroin addiction and collapsed entirely in 1983 when Mick Jones got fired in Bernie's revenge.

Joe Strummer acknowledged that it was over for the band when they fired Topper. Getting rid of Mick Jones was tantamount to suicide.

The story of Clash Mark 2 has been told in a book by erstwhile guitarist, Vince White. The book is called Out of Control. It paints VERY unflattering pictures of Strummer (spineless and lead by the nose by Bernie Rhodes), Paul Simenon (a bimbo who's more interested in getting his hair right than anything else; he freely admits he didn't play on any of The Clash albums), and Rhodes and Kosmo Vinyl.

This would be ok, but the whole tone of the book is bitter, angry and twisted (very). Reading it is sometimes akin to being trapped in a lift with a nutcase.

Yes I read that one too. Terrible visions of Strummer and Paul, LOL.
What always "bothers" me in the books and films on the Clash, after the fact, is how Topper blames himself for everything that went wrong.
What a great band they were. Tops.

"Sandinista"...I love hearing Strummer talk about it. Then listen to it, with his words in mind. They fired off a track, maybe rough mixed it, barely even listen to it, and went on to the next one.
I also love Strummer talking about Jones; not one bad word. Calls Mick Jones a genius.
What is that great film/ documentary on Strummer that has all the people talking round the fire? It's made to look as if they are all sitting there together? Superb flic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-25 11:13 by Palace Revolution 2000.

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lsbz

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Nikolai
The Stranglers should be mentioned alongside the Pistols, The Clash and The Damned - they sold more records than the three of them combined, and their stuff was harsh and threatening, and very much steeped in social critique. But they're not because, like The Police, they were effectively bandwagon hoppers and 'real' musicians.

Yes; more mature and playing in the tradition of rock. They had some good singles.

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Nikolai
Television were great too. I agree. But hardly a punk band. They were 'of punk'.

I think that they were considered New Wave, the American version of punk, at the time. They were also real, very good musicians.

Most of the wellknown eighties bands weren't bad but not real good either.

Television predated punk. In fact, that whole New York CBGBs scene did.

"New wave" was no movement, the way punk was, but a tidy, music-industry created and christened bracket to corral, brand and sell music that was in a vaguely punk/punk derived style without the musicians actually being punks. Thus Elvis Costello, Joe Jackson, Tom Robinson, Talking Heads, Television et al were all lumped in that category. They had very little in common.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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Nikolai

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ab
For a few years there (1977-80), the Clash were the most exciting band in the world, bar none. As Pete Townshend put it at the time, "I wouldn't pay to see the Who. I'd see the Clash instead."

Sure, they didn't always play in tune, and they were often sloppy. But they played with an energy and commitment that couldn't be denied. Things began to fall apart in 1981 when Topper Headon's drumming became unreliable on account of his heroin addiction and collapsed entirely in 1983 when Mick Jones got fired in Bernie's revenge.

Joe Strummer acknowledged that it was over for the band when they fired Topper. Getting rid of Mick Jones was tantamount to suicide.

The story of Clash Mark 2 has been told in a book by erstwhile guitarist, Vince White. The book is called Out of Control. It paints VERY unflattering pictures of Strummer (spineless and lead by the nose by Bernie Rhodes), Paul Simenon (a bimbo who's more interested in getting his hair right than anything else; he freely admits he didn't play on any of The Clash albums), and Rhodes and Kosmo Vinyl.

This would be ok, but the whole tone of the book is bitter, angry and twisted (very). Reading it is sometimes akin to being trapped in a lift with a nutcase.

Yes I read that one too. Terrible visions of Strummer and Paul, LOL.
What always "bothers" me in the books and films on the Clash, after the fact, is how Topper blames himself for everything that went wrong.
What a great band they were. Tops.

Topper's a recovering junkie and he's got that post-rehab mentality, self-flagellating and constantly apologising to everyone he hurt. But was it really his fault? Johnny Green has said - and I quote - that "The Clash were so dysfunctional they needed help crossing the road". They could have packed Topper into rehab, given him a shape up or else ultimatum, and kept it together. But Mick was on his ego-trip, Paul was disinterested (and effectively remains about as detached from his past as can be - he refused to take part in the Strummer film, and he didn't want The Clash to reunite to play the R n R Hall of Fame), and Joe Strummer was effectively a spineless, constantly hiding behind Bernie's skirts.

In their defence, of course, you can say that they were all very very young, not the wiser, sadder much older men they were in the Westway documentary. You can tell that the person most deeply scarred by The Clash's demise was Strummer. It's one of the rawest, most revealing interviews with him you'll ever see; very sad too. Topper Headon said that Joe felt so guilty about firing him he used to carry his picture around with him in his wallet.

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Palace Revolution 2000
"Sandinista"...I love hearing Strummer talk about it. Then listen to it, with his words in mind. They fired off a track, maybe rough mixed it, barely even listen to it, and went on to the next one.
I also love Strummer talking about Jones; not one bad word. Calls Mick Jones a genius.
What is that great film/ documentary on Strummer that has all the people talking round the fire? It's made to look as if they are all sitting there together? Superb flic.

"At that point Mick was unbearable ... like Elizabeth Taylor in a bad mood".

(Westway to the World)

Yes, he said a lot of nice things about him, but there was resentment still there too.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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Nikolai

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ab
For a few years there (1977-80), the Clash were the most exciting band in the world, bar none. As Pete Townshend put it at the time, "I wouldn't pay to see the Who. I'd see the Clash instead."

Sure, they didn't always play in tune, and they were often sloppy. But they played with an energy and commitment that couldn't be denied. Things began to fall apart in 1981 when Topper Headon's drumming became unreliable on account of his heroin addiction and collapsed entirely in 1983 when Mick Jones got fired in Bernie's revenge.

Joe Strummer acknowledged that it was over for the band when they fired Topper. Getting rid of Mick Jones was tantamount to suicide.

The story of Clash Mark 2 has been told in a book by erstwhile guitarist, Vince White. The book is called Out of Control. It paints VERY unflattering pictures of Strummer (spineless and lead by the nose by Bernie Rhodes), Paul Simenon (a bimbo who's more interested in getting his hair right than anything else; he freely admits he didn't play on any of The Clash albums), and Rhodes and Kosmo Vinyl.

This would be ok, but the whole tone of the book is bitter, angry and twisted (very). Reading it is sometimes akin to being trapped in a lift with a nutcase.

Yes I read that one too. Terrible visions of Strummer and Paul, LOL.
What always "bothers" me in the books and films on the Clash, after the fact, is how Topper blames himself for everything that went wrong.
What a great band they were. Tops.

The book is apparently very very accurate, but the writing is so angry and bitter you can't really war, to the writer. The more rounded portrait is in the Marcus Gray book, The Return of the Last Gang in Town.

The book has an interesting history. It came out in the early 90s, as The Last Gang in Town. It got roundly panned by the critics, largely because it didn't paint Joe in a good light. It quickly went out of print. This was very unfair, because I thought it was very very good. The stuff about the making of the albums was terrific, as were all the band conflicts, Bernie Rhodes's mind-games etc etc. Thankfully Gray re=edited/rewrote and updated the book, and it is very much the best book you can get on The Clash.

Wow, I'm glad I bumped this old thread from 2005 and you guys revived it with so many insightful posts.
very much appreciated. thanks.

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Nikolai

Television predated punk. In fact, that whole New York CBGBs scene did.

"New wave" was no movement, the way punk was, but a tidy, music-industry created and christened bracket to corral, brand and sell music that was in a vaguely punk/punk derived style without the musicians actually being punks.

I think the New Wave bands had a different attitude and musical approach in common anyway. I generally didn't like it much, but they had qualities as well. A band like the Ramones was good and entertaining at best; there were many bands like that. Not my musical taste but they just were around when I was in my twenties.

While reading this thread and listening to ITunes on shuffle, The 101'ers doing Out Of Time came up!

Probably not a highlight of Joe Strummers career but Not too shabby at all.

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Palace Revolution 2000
"Sandinista"...I love hearing Strummer talk about it. Then listen to it, with his words in mind. They fired off a track, maybe rough mixed it, barely even listen to it, and went on to the next one.
I also love Strummer talking about Jones; not one bad word. Calls Mick Jones a genius.
What is that great film/ documentary on Strummer that has all the people talking round the fire? It's made to look as if they are all sitting there together? Superb flic.

it´s called The Future is unwritten
but i also like the movie Let´s rock again

Ive read those books and while Joe Strummer had his weaknesses like everyone they are very negatively slanted (and in some cases total bullshit), its like the negative attitude towards Johny Ramone in the films and books about the Ramones it makes a good story but its not the whole picture. Both were hard working, decent guys who lived and breathed rock n roll. You can slag Joe as much as you want but there wont be another one, he was a unique and true rocker and I still miss him. They were the most @#$%& incendiary rock band of all time and I can only say respect and the guys who say Paul Simonon couldnt play never saw the Clash live.