After about five or six listenings.

It is Voodoo Lounge meets Bridges to Babylon meets Primitive Cool.

Top marks to Sir Michael.

He can still write good songs. And he's full of ideas and enthusiasm. I've often thought about his solo albums: 'this could be really good if only Keith and Charlie were playing on it'. Now I know what the result is: ABB. Certainly more listenable than his solo efforts.

Many good lyrics but many songs are just too 'wordy'. His best lyrics are shorter and straight to the point. Like JJF, SFM, BS, TD......and Neocon and ONNYA.

Problem on this album is that Keith and Ronnie are not gelling. There's no active guitar interplay, (I hate the cliched phrase 'weaving'). As I've said on other threads about this album: Dirty Work guitar were far more engaging and alive. On this album it's principally drums, bass and vocals that provide the songs' main structure and then the guitars all slot in around this. Often they just splurt. These songs were not constructured around guitars.

Several tracks are good. Let Me Down Slow for example. Nice melody and lilt. But just forget about guitars. And the intro. is completely from 'I'm Gonna Drive'. It's memorable for its strong vocal part. And it's spoiled by Mr. boring 'play on the beat' Jones, as are others.

Rough Justice is Just Roughage. Garbage guitars. Loud drums and stupid lyrics.

Infact, though they've got a good drum sound, it's the first time on a Stones's album that I'm bored by much of Charlie's playing. But it's largely the material he's been given to work with. Little room for creative exploration. He's doing his bit. But they are putting too much onus on him to make the album 'rock'....when that should be largely the guitarists' role with Charlie rising to their challenge. Instead it seems to be a Mick and Charlie tussling it out.

The one track that really works is Neo Con. It's the only one where perhaps new musical ground is being broken and in which all instruments gel, without a dominance of drums or vocals. Very infectious and very natural. Charlie got in his groove on this.

They are at their best, imo, when they are not making an obvious effort, not being too demonstrative; just using assured confidence. Jagger has this in abundance on many of the tracks but largely he is making vocal efforts to raise the game. It's as if he's doing all the hard work. And a good Stones album shouldn't sound like hard work.

Really like Jagger's bass btw. He must have had lessons from Bill.....at least in how not to intrude. He understands the importance of creating a sound/feel rather than the obvious DJ thumping beat. Pity there's no Ronnie on bass anywhere. This is unusual on a Stones' album and just confirms how little he was involved. Clearly, Keith, Ronnie and Mick can handle bass in the studio, with only the need for some assisatnce on the road. Why bother with Darryl?

ONNYA is a great song - but because of genuine Jagger expession and his strong catchy tune - NOT because of memorable guitars. Keith's solo is fine but nothing that you wouldn't expect, (nothing that grabs you out of nowhere like on DW track).

So, comparisons with SG, TY or Undercover are absurd. The former was founded on live-sounding guitar interplay and good songs. Undercover's strength was almost entirely its reliance on dynamic interacting guitars. I'm not a great fan of Start Me Up but at least it was built on a guitar riff, and Jagger fitted in behind that. The total role reversal has occurred on ABB.

There is hardly a song on ABB which is guitar driven.
The songs which do have a basis on a guitar riff eg She Saw Me Coming.....well they just don't develop and have nowhere to go really.

I could go on...and on...and on....but you get the gist.

Enjoyable in parts but not earth-shattering or cosmos-creating by any means.

It's enjoyable because Jagger has done a lot and come up with some good songs and worked hard. But one man can only do so much. It is not a great album because he has not been matched by equal efforts by his partner. I think it was nice the way Mick worked and played on Keith's songs. Genuine Keith emotion and maximum emotion from simple lyrical phrases - but the songs themselves are not musically strong - lack any development outside the basic groove. Almost boring really. Keith is unable or unwilling to come up with new riffs/ideas. Perhaps this is only to be expected. But if he is unable to do so there will not be another great Stones album.

So, I'll accept it as it is - A Lesser Flame. Much better than a Jagger solo album and they are not that bad really. But it is not, (by their previously high standards), a good Stones album.

I rate it higher that Voodoo but not as good as Bridges.

Oh, and ps....

They've named a tour after this album but don't seem prepared to justify the tour's title by playing the album's songs. Although I'm not knocked out by the album I think many more songs would work really well live and it's more than a shame that they lack the adventurous spirit to show what they can do with the stuff live. I'm sure you can all agree with that part of this thread. If they've had such creative blast making this album why the heck won't they let it explode on stage?

If u think Big Bang isn't guitar driven ,,,u need a new cd player ,,,its broke

FSW and I are essentially hearing this the same. I was thinking just this morning that this sounds like an MJ album with Charlie and Keith along for the ride. I think it's a fair representation. I like about 60% of the album, which is about what I would expect for such a project.

why does everyone hate on Jagger's solo stuff. It's not bad! It's good! I like Goddess in the Doorway just as much as anyhting the Stones have done in the 80s (including Tattoo You) and we should be happy that Mick is still able to write good songs and doens't just go into retirement and neglect the talent that is still within him. I say, the more albums the man wants to make the better.

chippy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If u think Big Bang isn't guitar driven ,,,u need
> a new cd player ,,,its broke


will you buy me a new cd player, chippy? mine seems to be broke...

I think it's a great Stones record. Very diverse musically and excellent audio quality and production. Tough to compare works of Art really.

Might as well throw in my two cents:

First of all, this is a nicely-produced disc. I've been first in line to slag Don Was, but Abb has good sound. DW finally got the drum sound right, and the bottom end is nicely reproduced. The recording could use just a little more "air", but overall it's allright. Best sounding song is "This Place Is Empty". Wish Don would have given the same instrument-separation to all the songs, but I won't quibble. 250% improvement over BTB.

ABB is a good disc. It, to me, is similar to Voodoo Lounge, but has a much better song-sequence. The dogs, really, are placed at the end of the disc. So, I can really just play tracks 1-10 and then stop. Saves me DJ-ing a listen-to disc. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for Laugh, IND. Nice Jagger vocal, but a weak track IMO. Driving Too Fast is by-the-numbers Stones, and Dangerous Beauty reminds me of "Gun" in it's quasi-metal tediousness. Look What TCDI is just plain bad. Sweet NC and Infamy are OK songs, no real complaints. But, rather than play the disc that far, I'd rather just throw something else on.

ABB is a real solid effort. My opinion is that the Stones can write tracks like this disc's 1-10 in their sleep. Give up the Disneyland stage show and just write albums guys! Or, my idea for a Keith solo disc: Re-do Hank Williams 40 Greatest Hits, song-for-song.

Karl

'Don’t forget, if you’re on your bike, wear white'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-09-10 08:07 by KSIE.

So ABB is not guitar driven????

I've listened to ABB thru the headphones and I am finding it hard to believe that this album's not guitar driven.

What I'm hearing on almost every track is 3 - 4 guitars playing different parts.
To me they sound like driving the songs. But then again there's basher Charlie who beats these drums harder than ever and also a lot better. Chemo worked which we are very thankfull for!

I can also see some similarities and influences to Jagger's solo records but also to Keith's so in the end we just have to realize. These two guys separated in different recording studios are just half the way to what they create when they get into the same one and work closely together.

ABB is a typical Stones album with driving guitars and drums. Great singing from Sir Mick. Isn't it time to make all four of them "Sirs"? Their contribution to the legacy of British rock music thru soon 45 years should just be enough for that.
I'm sure Keith would bowl down and gracefully accept the title, even though Prince Charles won't go safe from a smack on the chin! *lol*

Been Stoned since 1964 and still am!

If it ain't guitar driven then it's the best chains I've ever heard...!!!

ROCKMAN

It's shit.

You're crazy.

JumpingKentFlash

Charlie sounds really fantastic in my opinion, I fully agree with the people who said that the drum sound is finally great! And you know what - it even sounds better on the bootlegs too already!

About the guitars - take songs like "It Won't Take Long", "Rough Justice", "Oh No, Not You Again", "Look What The Cat Dragged In" or "Driving Too Fast" and "Back Of My Hand" - and if you think they are not guitar driven then you really should get your ears checked. "She Saw Me Coming" has a fantastic riff and it grooves like hell, just because guitars are scarce during the verse! The rest of the songs are not exactly rockers, but I think the guitars on "Rain Fell Down" are very funky, and Keith's acoustic is very nice on "This Place Is Empty"

No, I really don't agree with the negative reviews here - I think it is a very good album and I haven't heard it 5 or 6 times but about 6 times a day since it was released and the only songs I skip at times are: "Dangerous Beauty" (that one really lacks guitars imo - sounds a bit like Stereophonics too) and "Sweet Neocon"


Belgrade-Bucharest-Budapest-Brno

well i just think its a bloody good album...charlies solid as ever.jagger at his best..keef and ronnie doing there best...you can feel the effort jaggers put into this album...like i said before..lets not pull the album apart...and take it for what it is...its a much better album than i thought it was going to be...theres so many tracks i like..like ive said it dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing.. and this albums swings...thank you boys

This album is a creeper! It is the goods. The way the tracks are laid out makes it hard to listen to the whole thing at once. But their are really really good songs on here. The drums and bass are really up in the mix. Put the extra bass on your stereo or in the car and you'll see. lots of other albums you couldn't do that because the bass was to muggy in the mix.

Just you wait. This album will hit you like a tank.

uz2bstoned,

Personally I don't like a Stones album dominated by bass and drums. It should be outlawed!

Lorenz,

I'll get back to you on the guitars later.

Thanks for reading and not being too abusive. Was expecting much worse reaction.

But just one question to you all -

Where is the new guitar riff, (or guitar sound or even guitar idea?)

At least Bridges to Bab had one new riff - on Flip The Switch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-09-11 02:02 by Four Stone Walls.

A very good, but not great, Stones album. Just like Voodoo Lounge and Bridges to Babylon, only with slightly better songs and a little more consistancy. I don't think you can characterize this album as anything more than that.

StonesTod Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FSW and I are essentially hearing this the same. I
> was thinking just this morning that this sounds
> like an MJ album with Charlie and Keith along for
> the ride. I think it's a fair representation. I
> like about 60% of the album, which is about what I
> would expect for such a project.


Totally agree here, Mick's solo's always get blasted. I like the last. Nice mix of tunes.

the "soul" of the stones cuts through all the brilliant songs on bigger bang...i think it will age well....like most of their music...best wishes stonesniks

Unfortunately, in comparison to earlier Stones ABB is crap. It does not have a single memorable riff or idea. It is not awful but it really lacks the magic which makes (or made?) RS unique. Undercover is the last one with some spark.

RockR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A very good, but not great, Stones album. Just
> like Voodoo Lounge and Bridges to Babylon, only
> with slightly better songs and a little more
> consistancy. I don't think you can characterize
> this album as anything more than that.


It's better than both. Better than SW. And since I'm not a huge fan of TY, I'd say it's their best since Some Girls.

If anything from the Stones is crap ("if" because i never really call anything they have done crap) it would have to be SW and DW. Certainly NOT ABB.It is genuinely good straightforward music. No frills. Also, people are complaining that the lyrics are embarrassing or juvenile and what not. What are these guys supposed to be writing and since when have the lyrics NOT been mainly about bad love and sex ? That is their forte. I don't understand what people expected. The occasional political song has always been thrown out there as well. If anything this album is pure raunchy immature music made by not so young men who have perfected this, dare I say, artform. Everything sounds fresh and new and one would never think these guys are so old. They have never written epic ballads or deep deep lyrics so why would anyone expect that now ?

The only improvement, considering most people retire about thier age, would have been Keith AND Ronnie practicing the guitar parts for a month together before recording the tunes. Ronnie is very creative and certainly would have added that weaving it's missing. It is a shame that a full fledge 30 year member of the Stones was added to the album like a fill in session musician.

Perhaps Mick and Keith wanted a cleaner more structured sound. It's the best since Some Girls, if Ronnie and Keith played on it like they did on Some Girls
it could be considered better than.

bigbang,

I would argue, and will argue, tha SW has stronger songs and stronger guitar ideas than anything since. Keith was generally on fire on lead and finding new sounds. Ronnie's lead is refreshing and magic throughout. Some charming/ quaint songs like Break The Spell, Slipping Away (timeless) and also the HUGE Keith Ballad - Almost Hear YS, including acoustic solo on classical guitar, and totally relaxed Charlie in heartbeat-mode, (not bashing).

Invention and adventure of Continental Drift. Trance-like jam of Terrifying. Dirty, circular blues grunge of Hearts For Sale, (which is a real extension of their Chicago sound, not some fake pastiche like Back Of My Hand).

Need I say more? There's More.

Four Stone Walls Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bigbang,
>
> I would argue, and will argue, tha SW has stronger
> songs and stronger guitar ideas than anything
> since. Keith was generally on fire on lead and
> finding new sounds. Ronnie's lead is refreshing
> and magic throughout. Some charming/ quaint songs
> like Break The Spell, Slipping Away (timeless) and
> also the HUGE Keith Ballad - Almost Hear YS,
> including acoustic solo on classical guitar, and
> totally relaxed Charlie in heartbeat-mode, (not
> bashing).
>
> Invention and adventure of Continental Drift.
> Trance-like jam of Terrifying. Dirty, circular
> blues grunge of Hearts For Sale, (which is a real
> extension of their Chicago sound, not some fake
> pastiche like Back Of My Hand).
>
> Need I say more? There's More.


You can definitely say more if you like! You haven't changed my mind yet... Truth be told, I am a HUGE Steel Wheels fan. But I just think this album, overall, is better produced and the overall sound harks back to earlier creative periods. And because it is less cluttered and busy, I bet ABB will turn out to be better party music (it is, afterall, only rock and roll). I do in fact like Keith's songs on SW better than ones on ABB.

Well we are in agreement then. ABB does have good production and the sound does hark back........but for me that is retrogression -= a delibearte (dare I say calculated?)- yes - calculated attempt to hark back to a 'classic' Stones sound.

But i prefer it when they try to move forward with production and take some risks. That's how we got Time Waits FN, Black and Blue, Dirty Work, SW and Bridges, (more adventurous than the retro VL).

So many of the songs on ABB depend on the power of one single repetive riff and don't develop beyond that. The drums on the rockers are way too loud. Take away the loud drums on RJ and wahat is left - it's pitiful. Similarly on ONNYA - instead of flowing rhythm throughout you've just got intermiitent , almost perfunctory injections of phrases from Keith - and then a cliched Berry solo. AND I like that song. Just compare his solo on DW title track.

I like that album, (not a confessio!). My least favourite track is Fight. Horrible lyrics and sentiments and not an interesting tune anyawy. But what amazing rhythm guitar! No let-up. start to finish. Mixed Emotions is superficially a rather dull monotonous creation. But Keith's flowing rhythm throughout is quite remarkable - considering that he's basically just playing one chord throughout - but he coaxes, scratches and strokes so much nuance out of that one chord.

My favourite songs on ABB have to be the ballads, country numbers and slower funk/reggae ones, (even SOT now!) but they could have been on Primitive Cool. They are Jagger + KR and CW. I do think the whole album is essentially Jagger. Even the rockers. They would be totally in place on one of his solo albums - but they would not have sounded Stones-like. This album is made by The Mick Jagger Ensemble, featuring his old pals. It's not a totally bad album but it's not a great Stones album, because Keith, really is not coming up with new goods.

This was largely the case on B2B, but we did get some good band rockers and we got three really good Keith songs. And his Flip The Switch. And lots of new sounds/ideas, and songs from Jagger. But it was not a true Stones band production. That's why I always hark back to SW as their last true collaborative effort - as a five piece - many tracks with a live studio vitality - Keith as Mick's equal - essential Charlie and Bill - all the right ingredients - a diversity of sounds and styles. 12 tracks. Just the right length. Then some tasty out-takes, Fancy man and Wish I'd Never, whose loose, natural blues jamming frankly knocks the socks off the (to my ears) cold and calculated and lyrically contrived BOMH.

That's Almost It.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-09-11 18:22 by Four Stone Walls.

JUMPINJACK, I agree but get used to the typical " MICK SOLO MATERIAL BASHING!" IT's what they do here! This new cd is exceptionally solid, VERY WELL MIXED, great new melodies, awesome MICK lyrics, and alot of honesty,for example " BIGGEST MISTAKE" and " STREETS OF LOVE". Now if McCartney put out this cd, critics would have it at #1 already! I said CRITICS, not fans on this site. They hate Paul too for the most part!

Loved VL, cannot stand B2B. Most of it, especially the rockers, are crap (to my ears). Best two albums since Some Girls are SW and ABB, with a healthy edge to ABB. Just my opinion. I love reading yours, though. lol

c'mon guys! these songs surprisingly rock for 60 year old men! in the old days people this age would be doing lawrence welk crooning but the stones are still singing about lewd s & m and loose women. there are not too many of these rock stars at this senior age that can even enter a recording studio and do anything as inspiring as the stones can. mick is a highly driven man and a very creative mind that could do a lot more with better guitar players imo. however, he chooses to stick w/the stones for obvious reasons and i'm glad. these guys give me tremendous inspiration (being a musician myself) that you can still play and continue on at that age.

but, let's not go crazy here on the negs. this is just a rock band for pete's sake take it or leave it, that has been lucky enough to beat the odds to last for 40 years in some shape or another. this band never did anything 'earth shattering' in their career musically. the songs have always been simple and earthy and that's why fans like them. if these guys ever did anything totally different then it wouldnt be the stones and no one would like that either i.e 'satanic','goats',etc.

the keith vocal songs are a little weak especially infamy where it seems to be more of a jam lick, i'll give you that much. we know ronnie has been on the bottle for way too long and not too dependable and keith has issues with his hands so he's not going to be tearing up the frets anytime soon.

i truly hope this band continues on for as long as it can because it means a lot to me over the past 28 years... i for one consider them distant family.

FSW if everything you say is true, why does this album (and the songs on it) just plain sound so damn good? Are you a journalist or something? 5-6 listenings and you're ready to write a 30 page review? Do you really think you KNOW that much?

Don't worry ifyacantrockme all is well in Stonesland.

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

"There's no active guitar interplay..."

"Rough Justice is Just Roughage. Garbage guitars."

Four Stone Walls, perhaps there are different ABB in the market. Probably i have listened to an opposite ABB...