nankerphlege Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IF it wasn't for The USA, The Stones would not
> have existed.

If it wasn't for their respective parents having sex and as a result their mums getting pregnant, The Stones would not have existed. Don't exaggerate.

OK...you got me on that one. However almost all of thier musical influences are from the US...ie the blues and country. Muddy Waters and Jimmy Rodgers. Not trying to exaggerate..just calling them like I see 'em.

Mainly I find this debate leading nowhere...
Of course the Kaukasian segments of the US also have a key role in
the genesis of rock'n roll.

But:
...Bredda Keith use to say We´re all from Africa.
...Certainly the bluesmens forefathers were shipped
from that continent once. No slaves = no blues,
no rock = no Stones.
No Old World = No New World.
And I wont say anything about the indigenous peoples of North America.

this is funny, you will never understand because you dont have access to information, Bush has talked about 11/9 5 times last time!, hahah, talking about war and september 11, when everybody knows that there is not connection between 11/9 and Saddam, try to think, why does the Usa help Irak?, Niger needs help more than Irak!, more than 5.000 childrens die everyday because they have not food, the same with Sudan, so why Irak?, Irak is rich in Oil!, thats the answer, do you think that Iraqui people need more help that Niger or Sudan?, think a little please, if Bush wants to help please help Africa, not rich countries, please i would love to know your answer, who needs help?, Sudan, Niger,etc or Irak?

nankerphlege, tho I agree with most of what you said about America helping to "Spread Freedom and Liberty around the World," I have to correct you on one thing: >>>>IF it wasn't for [Brian Jones], The Stones would not have existed.

People forget that the original order was: Brian, Keith, Mick, (Dick Taylor dropped out of Brian's "newly reformed band," and replaced by) Bill Wyman, then Charlie.

I think y'all are jummpin' the gun on the political"ness" of the lyrics. The words could mean no more than references to people close to The Stones, family, friends, or just anyone who has crossed their paths and that the Stones have observed as being hypocritical. As in the past, the lyrics could mean a combination of things rolled into one, but, completely political, I doubt it.

"Fuc the Rock babe, I want the Roll." (KR)

Brian JOnes made the Stones yes he did. Mick and Keith developed from that and wrote the soundtrack to Brains lifestyle. Later theirs of course. Helping poor countries is good. A nice way of doing that is by at least offering democracy and a safe haven from terror. It is racism to say that Arabs and Africans dont need the US or democracy. We should support the war against terror and plain evil countries like Russia and most arab countries. Arabs like to vote to you know. Like in Israel where they can choose their own politicians.

What were those lyrics again, ha ha !

LA FORUM, i think you have to read something about Sharon's personal history since 1955. My friend, he is a butcher! And if we start discussing about all America's "wars", we need 2-3 years and 10.000 topics...

Bars, the Stones are billionaire, of course. They're members of the most succesful rock band. Do you think only the "rebels" can exercise the right of saying what they believe about our world? Francis Ford Coppola was already a famous billionaire when he made "Apocalypse Now!". So what?
The Stones is not an "activist group", of course, but they sometimes have something "political" to say. SFM, SFTD, Sweet Black Angel", Heartbreaker, Undercover, RATHP, etc. So "Neocon" is not something unprecedented...

What cracks me up is that somewhere in this thread I already saw the post "I hope the Stones don't include this song on the album". You talk about jumping the gun...LOL

Picasso was world famous when he did his great "political" painting Guernica in 1937...I find this thread unfathomable - is it logical that a) Stones are heavily influenced by great american music, b)therefore should not dare criticise the US government's (or Britain's) role in unleashing...well, too much for me to even believe these past 3 or 4 years...

As simple as dont buy the album or dont hear the song, i dont know why american gets so ungry when we talk about Usa administration, they are wrong and thats true, first Bush says that Saddams has WMD, and now says that he wants Iraqi Freedom, so, whats happening here?, everybody knows that Usa is there for the Oil, and there is no excuses for that, thats why Usa is there, there isnt another reason...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-07-05 19:15 by SeNdEr.

Chill out folks! This is art. Just because a musician or poet writes something, does not mean that they believe it or suscribe to it. Do you really believe that Jagger is Satan because of what he wrote in SFTD? Take a toke, relax, hug your kids! you goofy bastards!

stickydion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LA FORUM, i think you have to read something about
> Sharon's personal history since 1955. My friend,
> he is a butcher! And if we start discussing about
> all America's "wars", we need 2-3 years and 10.000
> topics...
>
> Bars, the Stones are billionaire, of course.
> They're members of the most succesful rock band.
> Do you think only the "rebels" can exercise the
> right of saying what they believe about our world?
> Francis Ford Coppola was already a famous
> billionaire when he made "Apocalypse Now!". So
> what?
> The Stones is not an "activist group", of course,
> but they sometimes have something "political" to
> say. SFM, SFTD, Sweet Black Angel", Heartbreaker,
> Undercover, RATHP, etc. So "Neocon" is not
> something unprecedented...


Butcher? Compared to who, Dalai Lama? Every soldier in the world is a butcher. Maybe he's bad maybe not. Palestinians have a lot more butchers than Israel and they seem proud of it. No not all of them of course but the leftwingers in Europe are proud of them. They give Europeans a reason to hate Israel. And The US.

SeNdEr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As simple as dont buy the album or dont hear the
> song, i dont know why american gets so ungry when
> we talk about Usa administration, they are wrong
> and thats true, first Bush says that Saddams has
> WMD, and now says that he wants Iraqi Freedom, so,
> whats happening here?, everybody knows that Usa is
> there for the Oil, and there is no excuses for
> that, thats why Usa is there, there isnt another
> reason...
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 07/05/05 19:15 by
> SeNdEr.

I wouldn't judge all Americans on the basis of the actions of the Bush adminstration. He won a majority of votes to stay president in 2004, but it was far from any kind of "mandate."
Basically, 50 percent of our country like him, 50 percent don't.

remember this country: Venezuela, im sure Usa will be there, it has a lot of Oil...

lot,s of rubbish been made out of three lines,i think we got to wait to hear the whole song.i,m pretty shure the song is not about bush and usa

This has deteriorated into the abyss of stupidity.

He's not knocking Christianity he's knocking the person its aimed at.
Man some people can't interpret anything correctly for want of need to be offended some how.

Some of you here are getting worse.
You just wanna come here to unload frustrations obviously about politics and religion and the like.

How the f'ck did three meaningless lines from a song we don't even f'cking know turn into....

"I'm just disappointed to hear Christianty bashing in any of the music I love."

and

"Oh really in what way has Bush and Sharon which you of course are reffering to killed people out of share joy? Bin Ladin and Saddam like to kill people, they started off killing their own before killing other civilians on purpose without even being i n war".

What bearing do any of these comments have on the three lines of this unknown song?

At what part in the lyrical content was Christianity knocked or Bin Laden mentioned?

Learn to f'cking read. Then learn to put the aforemention read material into context.



kyle m

Have you ever lent somebody $20 and never seen them again? It was probably worth it.

Meanwhile back at the topic:

IF this song is an attack on Bush it will be interesting to see what the US reaction will be, looking back at what happened to the Dixie Chicks and, to a lesser extent, Pearl Jam.

I seem to remember High Wire barely made a few column inches in the press, wasn't a big hit and seems to be forgotten.

I don't know why you worry so much about this now. It's not on the album yet. The song might still end up as a b-side.

billwebster im with you, anyway The GR, why do you say that?, Usa is a free country, isnt it?, people can say what they want about Bush administration or whatever, or they can censure the song because they doesnt like what it says? i really dont like how Usa works, anyway i dont say that all americans are bad people...im friend of a lot of them, i meet people from Texas, Miami, NY...and they are great people, i love NY but i will never go again because there is a lot of patriotism there, you can see Usa flags anywhere, for example in NY, a foreigner feels really bad there...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-07-07 17:02 by SeNdEr.

why should you feel threatened as a foreigner by people flying flags in what is after all their own country?

theres a big difference between patriotism and xenophobia

If New Yorkers feel like flying their own flag in their own city for any reason, particularly as an act of defiance against the scum who terrorised their city, then what the hell is wrong with that?

I cant believe there are people who feel somehow threatened by that.

The GR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile back at the topic:
>
> IF this song is an attack on Bush it will be
> interesting to see what the US reaction will be,
> looking back at what happened to the Dixie Chicks
> and, to a lesser extent, Pearl Jam.
>
> I seem to remember High Wire barely made a few
> column inches in the press, wasn't a big hit and
> seems to be forgotten.


Not that I'll take sides in this discussion (I know better by now ), but if this song (Neocon) has hit-potential and is a really great tune, do you think that the Americans would take it in or push it away??? I'm thinking "Born In The USA" here. Any thoughts???

JumpingKentFlash

If its remotely controversial, push it away. It wont get airplay. I doubt it will be a single either, for that reason alone.

Different era, different political climate.

Most of the people who saw "born in the usa" as some kind of flag-waving song were obviously only listening to the chorus. Besides, the 'message' in the song isnt really controversial at all.

Even Reagan got the wrong message and jumped on the bandwagon when campaigning in New Jersey that year - Springsteen's reaction to his 'endorsement' was that "he obviously didnt listen to 'Nebraska' "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-07-07 18:28 by Gazza.

"Yes but France is the real helper there not the US. The US has to deal with scumbags like Bin Ladin and Sadam because the world is full of threats against democracy and freedom."

USA supported Saddam in the 80'ies in the fight against Iran and created Bin Laden in the 80'ies in the fight against USSR.... The evil (Saddam / Bin Laden) can be supported / helped / used, when there is need for it in fight against things you don't like..... other countries (France, Germany, UK, Sweeden, etc.)have done exactly the same.....

In a way all countries do things to their own interests... you can call it in the name of democrazy, freedom, whatever.....

In the fight for its own interests - support to a dictator, massmurderer etc. can be used..... - just ask people in Latin America, Africa etc.... and they will know the answer.... they know all this talk about democrazy, freedom..... to them its just "empty words"....

The real matter for the western world is to explore the poor ones even more, so we can become richer, more egocentric, bigger, happier and so on....

The poor ones..... are left in behind as usual......

country honk!! great words, im with you, and thats all true!, what is that shit of G8?, what does it means?, that those countries are better than others?, they can decide our future?, no!!, no way!, go to hell, Bush, Blair, Putin, etc, i hate all of them, now you can feel the terror, now you can be afraid, like us (i live in latin america) with many thanks of Usa, and Europe, UK has stolen our lands and we dont forget it, has killed our family and we will never forget it now its your time to know what it feels....

Well now it is being said on the Net that this song will not be on the album at all. Jagger wrote the song about Condolezza Rice and is supposedly withdrawing it from the disc.
ZZZZ Iwish Jagger would quit wimping out.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why should you feel threatened as a foreigner by
> people flying flags in what is after all their own
> country?
>
> theres a big difference between patriotism and
> xenophobia
>
> If New Yorkers feel like flying their own flag in
> their own city for any reason, particularly as an
> act of defiance against the scum who terrorised
> their city, then what the hell is wrong with
> that?
>
> I cant believe there are people who feel somehow
> threatened by that.

- Now you´re sitting on a fence, dear brother Gazza.
Or maybe on a barbed wire. It´s obvious you havent read any
university course lately (last 15-20 years),
at least not not with any with some nation state-critical
discurs or contents.

Not that I read every single posting on this thread,
but I´m expressing myself
in a strictly clinical way here, scientific of the Humanities.
Buy a course-book in anthropology.
Free, enlightened people don´t need to wave with flags.
I livbe in Sweden; I would not ever made propaganda
for this odd nation,
but a fact is that this land nor its inhabitants havent been part
of any war since 1814, no war on our ground since 1809.
And neither do we wave with flags.
Let go there were a time of
frightening cowardness & passivitivity
(? is there such a word) 1940-43, maybe some of the first months
of the year of 1943 when @#$%&´s troopers could travel to easy
thru our country in order to extinct jews, gipsies, mentally
diseased, disabled, cripples, partisans and other in Norway.
To some extent this was compensated in 1943-44
when the government secretly helped the great number
of Norweigan refugees/partisans to establish a new democratic order
in the camps here in Sweden.
I can understand why Norweigans wave their flags over & over.
I can understand why the USA-ans wave their flags over & over.
But I also understand that if all nations do; we are going to
extinct the Human race.
The USA-imperialism & nationalism is very offensive for people.
Not that I care myself; but its very very obvious people get
shaken and stirred by it.
Time to focus more on what unites uss human beings and less on the differences.
Isnt it?

Well, the swedes wave with red flags. Start waving that blue-yellow flag again and take it back from the nazis.

If Sweden would have pulled the trigger and told Germany to @#$%& off during WWII a lot of lives would have been spared.

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> - Now you´re sitting on a fence, dear brother
> Gazza.
> Or maybe on a barbed wire. It´s obvious you havent
> read any
> university course lately (last 15-20 years),
> at least not not with any with some nation
> state-critical
> discurs or contents.
>
> Not that I read every single posting on this
> thread,
> but I´m expressing myself
> in a strictly clinical way here, scientific of the
> Humanities.
> Buy a course-book in anthropology.
> Free, enlightened people don´t need to wave with
> flags.
> I livbe in Sweden; I would not ever made
> propaganda
> for this odd nation,
> but a fact is that this land nor its inhabitants
> havent been part
> of any war since 1814, no war on our ground since
> 1809.
> And neither do we wave with flags.
> Let go there were a time of
> frightening cowardness & passivitivity
> (? is there such a word) 1940-43, maybe some of
> the first months
> of the year of 1943 when @#$%&´s troopers could
> travel to easy
> thru our country in order to extinct jews,
> gipsies, mentally
> diseased, disabled, cripples, partisans and other
> in Norway.
> To some extent this was compensated in 1943-44
> when the government secretly helped the great
> number
> of Norweigan refugees/partisans to establish a new
> democratic order
> in the camps here in Sweden.
> I can understand why Norweigans wave their flags
> over & over.
> I can understand why the USA-ans wave their flags
> over & over.
> But I also understand that if all nations do; we
> are going to
> extinct the Human race.
> The USA-imperialism & nationalism is very
> offensive for people.
> Not that I care myself; but its very very obvious
> people get
> shaken and stirred by it.
> Time to focus more on what unites uss human beings
> and less on the differences.
> Isnt it?


Oh please. Dont talk balls. What someone does culturally within the confines of their own country is their own business, not yours or mine. Very easy to knock people having pride in their own background when you havent had first hand knowledge of being bombed or attacked.

Waving a flag isnt going to 'extinguish the human race' Nor does doing so make it exclusive to the concept of "uniting us as human beings".Bombing the shit out each other does.

If your level of political correctness is such that you cant distinguish between the two, no wonder this world is in the state its in. You'll be banning the World Cup and the Eurovision Song Contest next in case someone gets offended!

Well, Bärs, some Norweigan lives may have been spared.
Some Swedish lives sure would have been spilled.
The saddest parts during WW II and on the topic of Sweden´s
relationsship to @#$%&´s Third Reich, is the extented fascism
among the stablishment, and that jews weren´t allowed
to immigrate here. Not even from Germany. A true shame.

My father was born in the very peace-weeks, April´45.
His father was a Norweigan partisan or resistance man.
His best friend was shot by the Traitor Government Troops,
and we´re baptized, named after that friend:
so we can never forget.

...Can´t agree with takin flags from Nazis.
Flags feeds nazis. It´s their very fuel.
My (hearts) flag is blue-yellow-white (Norrland´s):
Up to this day I havent seen a nazi used that one.

Anyway outside my house their a little blue & yellow flag,
have to admit. It´s harmless in itself - it´s what we fill it up
or load it with that matters. Maybe that was Gazza´s point,
we´ll see.

Finally it´s a very right-wing-directed thing to say that Swede´s wave with red flags (who are those reddings?). That was thirty years ago. Much good thing came up with that time, now this country is in ruins. Both main political directions governments have their responsibility in that. The sitting one´s sure have done their time, and would be allowed to a long rest now.

PS. The Blietzen is the very foundation to today´s Stones:
Both the Glimmer Twins spend a lot of their early years during
Hitkler´s bombings of London. And now it blasts again.