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Tate
I love Charlie Watts, but I think the whole jazz thing gets a bit over-imagined when analyzing his playing. Charlie admits he is not much of a jazz player, and he isn't, really. He just loves it. Charlie is a very lazy rock and roll player, which has sort of become his signature sound for the last 30 years-- lopsided fills (heavy on one hand and light on the other), playing only 3/4 of the notes on the hi-hat, and really kind of blasting through some of his older signature fills on stage without much mind. Tumbling Dice, for example-- listen to the lazy intro to almost every live version. And, Charlie makes big mistakes on stage a LOT for a pro in a band with pretty basic drum parts. Now again, I love Charlie Watts and I would want no other drummer for the Stones, but...... when it comes to his technique, it has indeed devolved over the years, I'm afraid. I think most of that happened in the 80's.
But how does playing the hi-hat on the fourth beat in conjunction with the snare take away from the power of the back beat?Quote
Naturalust
Charlie is a very lazy rock and roll player, which has sort of become his signature sound for the last 30 years-- lopsided fills (heavy on one hand and light on the other), playing only 3/4 of the notes on the hi-hat
That's not lazy, it's a somewhat unique technique he uses to allow the snare drum to dominate the back beat. Very effective and classic Charlie.
peace
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keefriff99But how does playing the hi-hat on the fourth beat in conjunction with the snare take away from the power of the back beat?Quote
Naturalust
Charlie is a very lazy rock and roll player, which has sort of become his signature sound for the last 30 years-- lopsided fills (heavy on one hand and light on the other), playing only 3/4 of the notes on the hi-hat
That's not lazy, it's a somewhat unique technique he uses to allow the snare drum to dominate the back beat. Very effective and classic Charlie.
peace
It's just a very odd style...I've never seen Jim Keltner play, but supposedly he does the same thing.
Oh, I've definitely heard Keltner play on many, many recordings...I've just never had the privilege of watching him play live.Quote
NaturalustQuote
keefriff99But how does playing the hi-hat on the fourth beat in conjunction with the snare take away from the power of the back beat?Quote
Naturalust
Charlie is a very lazy rock and roll player, which has sort of become his signature sound for the last 30 years-- lopsided fills (heavy on one hand and light on the other), playing only 3/4 of the notes on the hi-hat
That's not lazy, it's a somewhat unique technique he uses to allow the snare drum to dominate the back beat. Very effective and classic Charlie.
peace
It's just a very odd style...I've never seen Jim Keltner play, but supposedly he does the same thing.
Yeah I think Keltner copped that from Charlie but I may be wrong. And while you've never seen Keltner play, I'll bet you've heard him more than you may know. He's everywhere.
As far as taking away from the power of the back beat....the hi-hat is obviously not a "power" part of the kit while the snare and bass drum are the two power players. Having a hole for the snare to pop that back beat, all by itself, without interference from higher frequency things like the hi-hat makes for a very clean and more distinct sounding back beat. And with that back beat being the essence of rock drumming, I think it fits perfectly.
The advantages in a recording situation are just as obvious. You've got that single snare sound to record, EQ and mix however you want, without bleed and interference from the hi-hat attack and shush.
peace
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keefriff99
But how does playing the hi-hat on the fourth beat in conjunction with the snare take away from the power of the back beat?
LOL, I actually play drums (not well, but I can manage), so I get what you're saying, but it's not like Charlie is swinging his arms around wildly like a hard rock or heavy metal drummer.Quote
KoenQuote
keefriff99
But how does playing the hi-hat on the fourth beat in conjunction with the snare take away from the power of the back beat?
If he skips the 4, his hand to play the hi-hat is out of the way, so he can hit the snare with more force.
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keefriff99Actually, I HATE that aspect of his drumming, and he only started doing it frequently over the past 12 years starting on the Live Licks tour.Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
I love when he start riding on the crash. That is a real Charlie thing.
One can really hear how Charlie follows Keith and Mick. Charlie always is playing the SONG, not just a beat keeper.
I much preferred it when he used his ride cymbal properly...he has a nice light touch with the ride and it sounds so smooth. I don't understand why he has to clang up his sound by beating on his crash like that.
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Naturalust
Yeah, the hi-hat snare thing has a subtly distinct sound, but I think it is rooted in laziness
Naw, it seems too deliberate and overly emphasized to be a lazy thing. I think it's just his proven style when playing Rock with the Stones.
He doesn't always do it. Here's a good example of him hitting the hi-hat (and ride) together with the snare but with that Charlie back beat still solid as ever.
But, it's not just about his leaving the hi-hat out....check out what he does do with the hi-hat on Stray Cat Blues for instance. He swings it and plays combinations of open and closed that really work for the song.
peace
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Koen
Well I don't play the drums at all, so what do I know
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Tate
I love the clip you posted! Notice when he switches from the hi-hat to the ride cymbal (0:26), his tight, swingy half-shuffle on the hi-hat (tat ta-tat, tat ta-tat...) changes to a non-shuffle on the cymbal (ting, ting, ting, ting...). Why not keep the shuffle going? I think he has a bit more respect for his jazz music than he does his rock and roll, which is why he puts the effort into the rhythm on the hi-hat, but then when he heads over to the cymbal here he is simplifying things yet again.
Well these quotes confirm, more than anything, that his style isn't based on some grand scheme or sonic enhancement...it's just pure neglect of technique.Quote
Tate
Very interesting, from drummagazine.com:
"I never knew I did that until Jim Keltner saw me play in 1970. He asked me why I did it, and I didn’t know what he was talking about. And I still don’t know what it is, and I still don’t know I’m doing it. People have asked me to explain why I do it. The only way I can imagine is I play [traditional grip] with my left hand. And maybe it’s a way of getting one hand to make the backbeat bigger. I don’t know. It’s an unconscious thing."
So it may not be intentional, which makes me even more convinced it IS a kind of laziness, as you mostly see him doing it on faster rock songs. It takes 25% of the work away from the right hand. "It actually annoys me when I see myself doing it," he says in this interview in Modern Drummer (1990):
One thing [Jim] Keltner pointed out to Charlie was his
habit of coming off the hi-hat with his right hand
whenever he would hit a backbeat with his left. "I was
never conscious of it until Jim mentioned it," Charlie
comments. "But I do it a lot. I've noticed it on
videos, and it actually annoys me to see myself doing
it. It really comes, I think, from coming down heavy
on the backbeat. I don't use that [matched] grip that
Ringo uses. I did for a few years, because I thought
it was popular. But then I was told to go back to the
other way by Ian Stewart, who used to set up my drums.
He virtually ordered me to go back to what he called
'the proper way of playing'" Charlie laughs. "So I
went back to the military grip, and I really do prefer
it, but because of the amount you ride on the hi-hat,
I suppose I got into the habit of pulling the other
stick out of the way to get a louder sound.
"I've never consciously done it, but a lot of times
when we make a record I am consciously _not_ doing it,
because sometimes you hear the beat go 'di-dit,
di-dit'" Charlie says, tapping out notes that
are slightly squeezed together. "That works on some
things, but other times you need it perfectly even
because the microphone records everything in such a
nit-picky way".
yeahQuote
Tate
In fact, my favorite rock and roll drum solo ever is Ringo's on 'The End.' Super simple, but the kinetic energy embedded in that drum transition is amazing, and creates what I consider to be one of the best 90 seconds in all of rock and roll. So it is not Charlie's minimalist style that I accuse of being lazy, because I love that style and emulate it in my own playing. But there are some times when I listen to Charlie playing live (within the past 25 years), and I end up shaking my head.. Couldn't he have just tightened that up a bit? Couldn't he have played a slightly more soulful fill, truer to the feel of the song, than THAT? There are many modern era live versions of songs that fall flat in part due to Charlie's latter-day "lazy" playing, in my opinion.
Maine, huh? Well, I'm from Connecticut, so no oceans here...unless you live out on one of those tiny islandsQuote
Tate
Naturalust, Doxa, Keef, Dandelion, others, I wish I could meet up with y'all after work... Alas, I imagine an ocean divides us. Thank you for the insight. Naturalust-- Thanks for the ego-boost. When it comes down to it, I am a bit of a lazy drummer myself. Perhaps I have been projecting all along! ;^) Or maybe I just recognize all the shortcuts, heh... Well we all love Charlie and his contribution to The Rolling Stones. Can you imagine anyone else in his shoes? I mean Steve Jordan is great, but even if he sat in it would not be the Rolling Stones, now would it? Charlie Watts makes us all smile and cheer the loudest for when introduced at the shows... What a character. What a drummer. Peace and Love from Maine, everyone! Happy Holidays.....