The letter also could have been mailed Lennon, without him actually reading it before the show.

I'm only speculating here, of course

<why would he mention to Lennon about his intention to "get one of the insignificant groups to close the bill"? Why would such information be conveyed to Lennon?>

Because Lennon had said that he worried about not getting the main slot in the show?

Just to put it in perspective, this is the NME poll for 1963.




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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swiss

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treaclefingers

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swiss

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treaclefingers
So, in summation The Beatles did in fact open for the Stones.

Just so we have it historically accurate.

Hmmm...I'm now thinking this thread should be chucked into the 52-page-long Beatles Vs Stones cacophony.

Shirley you jest.

Who you calling Shirley? And no, I am not being Ernest.

Frankly, that's not my concern.

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Deltics
Just to put it in perspective, this is the NME poll for 1963.

Whatever happened to the Rockin' Berries?

The NME really ought to research their own archives more thoroughly.
This is a reprint of the May 1, 1964 NME review of the concert (from NME Originals, 60s Swinging London, 2003) that clearly shows that the Stones played before the Beatles and that the Merseybeats closed the show.




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-02 15:41 by Deltics.

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CaptainCorella

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24FPS

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Cristiano Radtke

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24FPS
Didn't they also share the Bill in '65 and '66?

1963: [life.royalalberthall.com]

Thanks. So the Beatles & Stones shared a bill at least once in 63,64,65, and 66.

The RAH site is rubbish, and they have been told to correct it.

As far as I can find out, the Stones & The Beatles were on the same bill, 5 times

1963 RAH
1964 NME Poll Winners (two shows)
1965 NME Poll Winners (two shows)

And, I'm very welcome to seeing verifiable evidence of other times.

Yes, but weren't they also on the same bill at NME 1966? So....six times?

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Deltics
The NME really ought to research their own archives more thoroughly.
This is a reprint of the May 1, 1964 NME review of the concert (from NME Originals, 60s Swinging London, 2003) that clearly shows that the Stones played before the Beatles and that the Merseybeats closed the show.

Ah, Jimmy Saville, 'Shady' character indeed.

I know I've posted this before, but as far as I know the only concert that the Beatles & Stones were on the same BILL for was indeed the Royal Albert Hall, London, September 15th 1963 for the “Great Pop Prom”. They also appeared together 3 times later, at the New Musical Express Poll Winners’ Concert Parties, on 26th April 1964, 11th April 1965 and May 1st 1966 (incidentally the last time The Beatles played “live” in the U.K., unless you count the "Let it be" rooftop appearance in 1969), all at Empire Pool Wembley.

Chriseganstar

Satisfied since 1976

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24FPS

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CaptainCorella

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24FPS

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Cristiano Radtke

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24FPS
Didn't they also share the Bill in '65 and '66?

1963: [life.royalalberthall.com]

Thanks. So the Beatles & Stones shared a bill at least once in 63,64,65, and 66.

The RAH site is rubbish, and they have been told to correct it.

As far as I can find out, the Stones & The Beatles were on the same bill, 5 times

1963 RAH
1964 NME Poll Winners (two shows)
1965 NME Poll Winners (two shows)

And, I'm very welcome to seeing verifiable evidence of other times.

Yes, but weren't they also on the same bill at NME 1966? So....six times?

All of the NME shows mentioned were in two halves with different acts in each half. The Beatles and Stones appeared in the second half of the '64 and '66 shows but in '65 the Stones finished the first half and the Beatles the second.
No acts appeared twice so it's only four times that the two were on the same bill, three if you count each half as a separate show.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Another question I have is, how did this thread come to assume that it was addressed to Lennon in the first place?

When I read the letter I didn't think of John Lennon....

__________________________

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NICOS
Another question I have is, how did this thread come to assume that it was addressed to Lennon in the first place?

When I read the letter I didn't think of John Lennon....

It's not written to John Lennon.
The "John" to whom the letter is written has an address at the Empire Pool, Wembley, Middlesex which would presumably be his business address.
A full scan of the letter would show his full name as well as Maurice Kinn's address at the top right of the letter.
[library.bcu.ac.uk]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-02 20:37 by Deltics.

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Deltics

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NICOS
Another question I have is, how did this thread come to assume that it was addressed to Lennon in the first place?

When I read the letter I didn't think of John Lennon....

It's not written to John Lennon.
The "John" to whom the letter is written has an address at the Empire Pool, Wembley, Middlesex which would presumably be his business address.
A full scan of the letter would show his full name as well as Maurice Kinn's address at the top right of the letter.
[library.bcu.ac.uk]

Actually, it was my mistake because I thought it was addressed to him by reading of what's written on the letter.

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24FPS

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CaptainCorella

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24FPS

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Cristiano Radtke

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24FPS
Didn't they also share the Bill in '65 and '66?

1963: [life.royalalberthall.com]

Thanks. So the Beatles & Stones shared a bill at least once in 63,64,65, and 66.

The RAH site is rubbish, and they have been told to correct it.

As far as I can find out, the Stones & The Beatles were on the same bill, 5 times

1963 RAH
1964 NME Poll Winners (two shows)
1965 NME Poll Winners (two shows)

And, I'm very welcome to seeing verifiable evidence of other times.

Yes, but weren't they also on the same bill at NME 1966? So....six times?

Thanks. I'll gratefully take that correction.

As for the ultra-subtle point raised here

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Deltics
All of the NME shows mentioned were in two halves with different acts in each half. The Beatles and Stones appeared in the second half of the '64 and '66 shows but in '65 the Stones finished the first half and the Beatles the second.
No acts appeared twice so it's only four times that the two were on the same bill, three if you count each half as a separate show

I was at the '64 and '65 shows and have no recollection of there being two "halves" - if a half means audience change and not an interval.... but that was 50 years ago so my memory will be flawed.

If a "half" is an interval, then that's one show. If a "half" means audience change, then that's two. Anyone know for sure?

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella

As for the ultra-subtle point raised here

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Deltics
All of the NME shows mentioned were in two halves with different acts in each half. The Beatles and Stones appeared in the second half of the '64 and '66 shows but in '65 the Stones finished the first half and the Beatles the second.
No acts appeared twice so it's only four times that the two were on the same bill, three if you count each half as a separate show

I was at the '64 and '65 shows and have no recollection of there being two "halves" - if a half means audience change and not an interval.... but that was 50 years ago so my memory will be flawed.

If a "half" is an interval, then that's one show. If a "half" means audience change, then that's two. Anyone know for sure?

Not having had the good fortune of attending the event myself (I was eight years old at the time!), I've had to rely on some research.
It seems unlikely that there were two shows and that the two halves were either side of an interval.
Judging by this report, the concert was heavily over-subscribed.



According to the ticket, the show started at 2.30 pm and the review for the 1965 show indicated that it ran for three and half hours, I imagine that the 1964 concert would have been much the same.





The review in the NME has the running order thus:
First half: The Hollies, Freddie and The Dreamers, Kathy Kirby, Swinging Blue Jeans, The Dave Clark Five, The Shadows, Cliff Richard.
Second half: Manfred Mann, Brian Poole and The Tremeloes, Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas, The Rolling Stones, Gerry and The Pacemakers, The Searchers, The Beatles, The Merseybeats.



There's no mention of Joe Brown, Jet Harris, Frank Ifield or Big Dee Irwin in the review but I suppose that the line-up could have changed between the programme being printed and the actual event.
The Joe Loss Orchestra are mentioned as accompanying Kathy Kirby and could have played during the interval.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-04 13:00 by Deltics.

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Deltics

Not having had the good fortune of attending the event myself (I was eight years old at the time!), I've had to rely on some research.
It seems unlikely that there were two shows and that the two halves were either side of an interval.
Judging by this report, the concert was heavily over-subscribed.

An outstanding post. Thanks.

Although I was there in '64 and '65 my tickets have not survived. (Who would have thought that 50 years later they would be of interest!? Also the friend I was with at both shows had a habit of chewing tickets - don't ask! - so that may have been their soggy fate).

I can though ask someone else who was there..... watch this space.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Yeah. Also, the full scan of the document is unavailable?

What a memorable show. After the gig James Brown changed his mind and started admiring the Stones!

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LadyJane12
What a memorable show. After the gig James Brown changed his mind and started admiring the Stones!

Different show, Giulia, the one you're referring to was the TAMI show filmed in Santa Monica in October 1964.
[en.wikipedia.org]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-04 10:24 by Deltics.

Sorry,I confused them. By the way I didn't remember this show.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-04 10:48 by LadyJane12.

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Deltics

According to the ticket, the show started at 2.30 PM and the review for the 1965 show indicated that it ran for three and half hours, I imagine that the 1964 concert would have been much the same.

I missed this earlier. If the show started at 2.30pm and ran for three and a half hours, then it finished at 6.00pm.

There's pretty much no way that they could empty the hall of all of the audience, and then admit a totally new audience in less than about 2 hours.

A show starting at 8:00 would then be expected to end at 11:30pm, and frankly in the UK in 1965, on a Sunday ... that would not happen.

Looking more like one show per year.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella

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Deltics

According to the ticket, the show started at 2.30 pm and the review for the 1965 show indicated that it ran for three and half hours, I imagine that the 1964 concert would have been much the same.

I missed this earlier. If the show started at 2.30pm and ran for three and a half hours, then it finished at 6.00pm.

There's pretty much no way that they could empty the hall of all of the audience, and then admit a totally new audience in less than about 2 hours.

A show starting at 8:00 would then be expected to end at 11:30pm, and frankly in the UK in 1965, on a Sunday ... that would not happen.

Looking more like one show per year.

My thoughts exactly, the pubs closed at 10 pm on a Sunday and TV programming usually ended before 11.30 pm.
The country was expected to be tucked up in bed before midnight!


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-04 13:00 by Deltics.

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Deltics

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CaptainCorella

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Deltics

According to the ticket, the show started at 2.30 pm and the review for the 1965 show indicated that it ran for three and half hours, I imagine that the 1964 concert would have been much the same.

I missed this earlier. If the show started at 2.30pm and ran for three and a half hours, then it finished at 6.00pm.

There's pretty much no way that they could empty the hall of all of the audience, and then admit a totally new audience in less than about 2 hours.

A show starting at 8:00 would then be expected to end at 11:30pm, and frankly in the UK in 1965, on a Sunday ... that would not happen.

Looking more like one show per year.

My thoughts exactly, the pubs closed at 10 pm on a Sunday and TV programming usually ended before 11.30 pm.
The country was expected to be tucked up in bed before midnight!

Add to that .. the vast majority of people at the show(s) would have got there by public transport - most likely the Tube - that closed down early on Sundays.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

The tube still stops at midnight even on regular weeknights! I got stranded after the Stones' first O2 show in 2012, which was on a Sunday (and as attendees will remember, we got stiffed because they had to cut Satisfaction so we could make the trains. Which was fine if you didn't need to make a connecting train . . .)

Just one reason I'm almost certain there weren't two shows in 1965. Also, parts of the show were televised each year, I remember watching them, though I never attended.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-04 23:02 by Aquamarine.

Can anyone explain this?
NME All Star Concert, no mention of "Poll Winners", with the same date and venue but with a different line-up.






"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

No, I can't explain that--the Stones were on Ready Steady Go that day, according to my diary, but I think it was taped on the Friday. (To my unutterable shock I wrote "Bill looked the best, as he has done for ages." I don't remember going through this phase. )


Edit: A show called "Big Beat '64 was apparently televised May 3. I listed the participants as including Joe Loss, Brian Poole, Freddie and the Dreamers, Searchers, Swinging Blue Jeans, Cliff, Hollies, and the Stones "who went completely bonkers."

Edit again: But wait! A week later, May 10, Big Beat '64 is televised again and features the Merseybeats, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Joe Brown, etc., and the Beatles starring Paul McCartney, "the only boy I'll ever love." God I was fickle.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-05 00:37 by Aquamarine.

OK, let's throw a cat amongst the pigeons.



From Zentgraf: 640426E 26th April: Wembley, Empire Pool (2nd show)

According to Karnbach, the line-up was:
David John and The Mood, Tony Marsh, Julie Grant, Peter and Gordon, The Barron Knights, The Overlanders and The Stones.
He lists it as part of The Stones' fourth UK tour.

In Bill Wyman's "Rolling With The Stones" he says that they played a matinee and evening show.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

So that would seem to be a completely different event from the poll winners' show, which I assume is the same as the Big Beat '64 show? (And therefore much shorter, and possible to have 2 shows.)

I mean the All Star show would have been much shorter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-05 00:54 by Aquamarine.

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Deltics
OK, let's throw a cat amongst the pigeons.



From Zentgraf: 640426E 26th April: Wembley, Empire Pool (2nd show)

According to Karnbach, the line-up was:
David John and The Mood, Tony Marsh, Julie Grant, Peter and Gordon, The Barron Knights, The Overlanders and The Stones.
He lists it as part of The Stones' fourth UK tour.

In Bill Wyman's "Rolling With The Stones" he says that they played a matinee and evening show.

What you've dug up has to point to the answer to the question.

There were two distinct shows at Empire Pool that day (Sunday 26th April 1964). The first show was the Poll Winners' All Star Concert. The second was the shorter All Star Concert. I'd guess that this was done to cash in on the demand (and re-cycle the stage setup), and the only reason they could not call the second house 'Poll Winners' was because too many of them could not stay for the second one.

But, central to one of the sub-texts here and in another thread, The Beatles were not on the bill for the second show on that date.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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Aquamarine
No, I can't explain that--the Stones were on Ready Steady Go that day, according to my diary, but I think it was taped on the Friday. (To my unutterable shock I wrote "Bill looked the best, as he has done for ages." I don't remember going through this phase. )

You must have lived outside of London.

Ready, Steady, Go! was shown LIVE in London from the ATV Studios early on Friday Evening (pretty much the same formula adopted by the same producer when she did "The Tube" 20+ years later.

The regional commercial channels then showed it, usually, on the following Sunday.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

The shows you watched on TV were recordings of the afternoon "Poll winners" concert and broadcast by ABC Television as "Big Beat 64" on, as you say, May 3 and 10.
They were edited out of sequence so that The Stones finished the first programme and The Beatles the second.

Part 1:
[explore.bfi.org.uk]

Part2:
[explore.bfi.org.uk]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"