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Doxa, I always look forward to reading your critique as you have such a unique way of appreciating Stones' music. The section above is a great example. Thinking of Exile as one long party and then getting to the final song and hearing it as 'fu ck you, you think the show's over but this party never ends'. That's inspired.
And ain't it just the truth.
Heh, I have given up that task to put EXILE songs into preferable order... Some of the songs took longer to grow on me, but now they are "EXILE's children", and I love all of them not just dearly but equally as well I think...
- Doxa
Well, it is the truth. But actually I remember what you said of "Rocks Off" some time ago, and now when I saw what you said of "Soul Survivor", those things just clicked with my experience, and tried to express it by my own words. So credition - or is better to say 'inspiration' to respect the Stones credition policy - should be addressed to you...
- Doxa
Well, IT IS a helluva party, and a damn dangerous one, including all those elements you described... SOME GIRLS is probably more 'party album' from the outset, fun and everything, but it is actually just a 'coctail party on the street', very light-weight compared to dark waters of EXILE...
I think the 'party' element in EXILE comes mostly from the inspired playing, and like when one is drunk/stoned enough, one just don't care about anything, and is not afraid of doing or trying anything. But it really is 'kids, don't try this at home'... And even for the Stones, EXILE was once in a life time party. And I'm afraid that they probably never quite survived the hangover it left... I don't think they would ever sound so edgy and scareless and dangerous as they do sound there, and a part of me feels a bit melancholic when "Soul Survivor" ends and knows that the band would never ever again sound so hot as they do there. But then one needs just to put the needle back on the beginning of "Rocks Off" and start again...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 13:07 by Doxa.
Hot rails to hell baby!
I almost never enter into deep ranking of songs (or albums), (much more often superficial presentations, probably, in case of being in lack of substance), but was compelled to try to do it to some extent by kleermaker in his thread "Five Favourite Exile Songs" at the start of the year. As lists seem to be in the vogue on Tell Me, and I had little else to say, something of the kind was only what I was able to offer. Really, it is the whole that is important. And the qualitative assessment most of all, of songs or albums alike, if one has a background to do so.
- Doxa
I think that they felt so relaxed at having their own record label and as you say, were unrivalled as the greatest rock'n'roll band, at least of their 60s peers, that they afford themselves the luxury of a double album.
And I think that decision came from circumstance. I'm not sure whether they set out to make a double album. That has never been revealed.
But their day to day situation proved inspirational. From books written about their time at Nellcote we know that every day presented itself with an adventure...a situation to deal with. And that must have proved really inspirational from a writing point of view. Constant flux. People coming and going, fights with the police, hangers on, gangs, mind blowing drugs etc. It really must have seemed like a 9 month party (or however long they stayed there). And if ever an album reflected the conditions of its making then Exile is it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:57 by Silver Dagger.
It's Only Rock'n'Roll is about as far as you can get from the real life rock'n'roll of Exile On Main Street. I'd say that IORR along with Star Star and perhaps even Dancing With Mr D was the start of the cartoon era of Stones self-parodying themselves.
I'm not saying they're bad songs as I enjoy all of three immensely but you can trace the roots of Some Girls straight through to those 3 songs.
And possibly the main difference in songwriting from Goat's Head Soup era onwards is that Mick n Keith lived in different countries.
A good comment! The way I think of "It's Only Rock'n'Roll" expressing the content was more like describing the wide scale of different styles and genres of American music (of the last 20 years or so) the album is full of, and they didn't hesitate to release whatever experiments they had there. In many ways it reminds us of their cover days of the past, but now (mostly) giving their own original - and mature - takes on the songs and styles, some of it going even retro. Even though that sort of thing was not nothing unique or odd back then, The Stones rather strongly make an anti-comment on anything 'progressive' and 'instrumentally demanding' especially British rock music was then flirting with. The songs were, like you, said "simple" (can't find a better word), and played more with an attitude than with skills. There weren't such ambitious musical adventures as "Moonlight Mile" or "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" that might indicate that the Stones also might have a say in those kind 'larger' musical horizons. That they had a world-class guitar hero in their band, like STICKY FINGERS had made it clear, was almost buried into mix, like they were hiding that gun... A 'normal' blues rock band - or were they already called hard rock bands? - would have used that weapon differently...
In a way I think the Stones are giving there a lesson of rock and roll what it initially is all about and how is to be played. As a contemporary statement it was musically looking more back than forwards (for example, compared to STICKY FINGERS). It almost states that they refuse to develop...
But yep - rock and roll still is 'larger than life' and in EXILE the Stones give us a reminder why it really is so. A study in essentials. True that later when Jagger actually came up with that slogan, there was more in it, and probably even trying to reduce some of its significance. I tend to think that it is much more clever statement than what normally is thought.
- Doxa
I second that. Both of you guys make me proud to be a Stones fan and a member of this forum.
Drew
Aw shucks Drew. You're one of the club too with your enlightened observations.
American Head Soup is certainly more awkward.
I think they could have called the album, "Cognitive Dissonance" and that would have summed it up.
I think the beauty of it (or alchemy, as I like to say) is that they made it sound organic even though it wasn't. There's the Nellcote sessions, which comprise half the basic tracks of the album, and then there's various odds and ends that date back to Let It Bleed, and then there's the LA overdub sessions, where the gospel singing and a lot of other stuff was added. The genius of the artists is that they made it sound as if the whole thing came up from a subterranean swamp (and I mean that in a good way).
As for Soul Survivor: Just don't call it "filler"!
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:23
A very, very fitting concluding song of EXILE, and also fitting as follow-up to my favourite song of the album.
Itself and in itself not among my top four songs there in the narrow contest, but one of so many contenders for fifth favourite, usually a couple of others slightly preferred though.
Itself and in itself not among my top four songs there in the narrow contest, but one of so many contenders for fifth favourite, usually a couple of others slightly preferred though.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:24
Pretty hard to discuss EXILE songs individually, since to 'get' them one needs to start from the whole, the songs belong to the context, and have a significance there. Or something like that...
But to the whole feel of the album, I think "Soul Survivor" as perfect ending as "Rocks Off" is the beginning in setting the mood right. "Rocks Off" welcomes one to forget one's normal days sorrows, and join in the endless party. And when one finally get to the final side, and having gone through "Stop Breaking Down", and probably being a bit afraid of the hang-over, then treated with "Shine A Light", a kind of good-bye song, reminding one of the world outside the party, and the dangers of this endless party, in comes "Soul Survivor" and states 'fvck it! This party ends no ever! Nothing can stop us!". Has pure vitality of rock and roll, in its highest extreme can be, ever manifested so well as it is done here?
My favourite - a wrong word I know but you know what I mean - part, or let's the most telling part of the special mood in the track - and in the album - is the part "It's gonna be the death of me" when it is repeated, and one cannot not even notice here if they actually even spell the words at all, or just scream... incredible...
I tend to think that the difference between the original and the deluxe version is, like noted here, what Jagger brings on the table. I don't know if as far as song construction goes, is that really true. Did Richards composed with new lyrics the 'guide' melody, and then handed it to Jagger, or did them that together, or was it all Jagger from then on. Under those circumstancs, probably even them do not know that, and who cares. It still documents an interesting process how the Stones songs develop into final form. Probably a distinction between 'track' and a 'song' could be applied here. In a way, the Deluxe version gives us "Soul Survivor" as it musically goes, but in a way, it doesn't. Something crucial happens, like lifting the whole thngs into total grace, when the 'actual' song is 'added' to the backing track that still has all the chords, changes etc. already finished. But then again, the feel already is there in the backing track.
Once in a life time recordings... all of them, but especially the key members are peaking here. Keith's rhythm work and Mick's vocals are simply in their strongest condition ever. Pure magic.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 12:27 by Doxa.
But to the whole feel of the album, I think "Soul Survivor" as perfect ending as "Rocks Off" is the beginning in setting the mood right. "Rocks Off" welcomes one to forget one's normal days sorrows, and join in the endless party. And when one finally get to the final side, and having gone through "Stop Breaking Down", and probably being a bit afraid of the hang-over, then treated with "Shine A Light", a kind of good-bye song, reminding one of the world outside the party, and the dangers of this endless party, in comes "Soul Survivor" and states 'fvck it! This party ends no ever! Nothing can stop us!". Has pure vitality of rock and roll, in its highest extreme can be, ever manifested so well as it is done here?
My favourite - a wrong word I know but you know what I mean - part, or let's the most telling part of the special mood in the track - and in the album - is the part "It's gonna be the death of me" when it is repeated, and one cannot not even notice here if they actually even spell the words at all, or just scream... incredible...
I tend to think that the difference between the original and the deluxe version is, like noted here, what Jagger brings on the table. I don't know if as far as song construction goes, is that really true. Did Richards composed with new lyrics the 'guide' melody, and then handed it to Jagger, or did them that together, or was it all Jagger from then on. Under those circumstancs, probably even them do not know that, and who cares. It still documents an interesting process how the Stones songs develop into final form. Probably a distinction between 'track' and a 'song' could be applied here. In a way, the Deluxe version gives us "Soul Survivor" as it musically goes, but in a way, it doesn't. Something crucial happens, like lifting the whole thngs into total grace, when the 'actual' song is 'added' to the backing track that still has all the chords, changes etc. already finished. But then again, the feel already is there in the backing track.
Once in a life time recordings... all of them, but especially the key members are peaking here. Keith's rhythm work and Mick's vocals are simply in their strongest condition ever. Pure magic.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 12:27 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:36
Quote
Doxa
But to the whole feel of the album, I think "Soul Survivor" as perfect ending as "Rocks Off" is the beginning in setting the mood right. "Rocks Off" welcomes one to forget one's normal days sorrows, and join in the endless party. And when one finally get to the final side, and having gone through "Stop Breaking Down", and probably being a bit afraid of the hang-over, then treated with "Shine A Light", a kind of good-bye song, reminding one of the world outside the party, and the dangers of this endless party, in comes "Soul Survivor" and states 'fvck it! This party ends no ever! Nothing can stop us!". Has pure vitality of rock and roll, in its highest extreme can be, ever manifested so well as it is done here?
- Doxa
Doxa, I always look forward to reading your critique as you have such a unique way of appreciating Stones' music. The section above is a great example. Thinking of Exile as one long party and then getting to the final song and hearing it as 'fu ck you, you think the show's over but this party never ends'. That's inspired.
And ain't it just the truth.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:42
Quote
Witness
Itself and in itself not among my top four songs there in the narrow contest, but one of so many contenders for fifth favourite, usually a couple of others slightly preferred though.
Heh, I have given up that task to put EXILE songs into preferable order... Some of the songs took longer to grow on me, but now they are "EXILE's children", and I love all of them not just dearly but equally as well I think...
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:49
If Exile is one big party, it's surely a dangerous one... So much darkness, scariness and mystique in one package.
For me, it's more of a rollercoaster ride than a party. Then again, people party differently
For me, it's more of a rollercoaster ride than a party. Then again, people party differently
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 12:49
Quote
Silver Dagger
The section above is a great example. Thinking of Exile as one long party and then getting to the final song and hearing it as 'fu ck you, you think the show's over but this party never ends'. That's inspired.
And ain't it just the truth.
Well, it is the truth. But actually I remember what you said of "Rocks Off" some time ago, and now when I saw what you said of "Soul Survivor", those things just clicked with my experience, and tried to express it by my own words. So credition - or is better to say 'inspiration' to respect the Stones credition policy - should be addressed to you...
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 13:06
Quote
DandelionPowderman
If Exile is one big party, it's surely a dangerous one... So much darkness, scariness and mystique in one package.
For me, it's more of a rollercoaster ride than a party. Then again, people party differently
Well, IT IS a helluva party, and a damn dangerous one, including all those elements you described... SOME GIRLS is probably more 'party album' from the outset, fun and everything, but it is actually just a 'coctail party on the street', very light-weight compared to dark waters of EXILE...
I think the 'party' element in EXILE comes mostly from the inspired playing, and like when one is drunk/stoned enough, one just don't care about anything, and is not afraid of doing or trying anything. But it really is 'kids, don't try this at home'... And even for the Stones, EXILE was once in a life time party. And I'm afraid that they probably never quite survived the hangover it left... I don't think they would ever sound so edgy and scareless and dangerous as they do sound there, and a part of me feels a bit melancholic when "Soul Survivor" ends and knows that the band would never ever again sound so hot as they do there. But then one needs just to put the needle back on the beginning of "Rocks Off" and start again...
- Doxa
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 13:07 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
crholmstrom
()
Date: September 9, 2014 13:08
One of my fave Stones' songs. The groove is mighty on this one IMO. Think I may prefer the version with Keith singing.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 14:03
Quote
DandelionPowderman
If Exile is one big party, it's surely a dangerous one... So much darkness, scariness and mystique in one package.
For me, it's more of a rollercoaster ride than a party. Then again, people party differently
Hot rails to hell baby!
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 14:07
Be interesting to hear what 71 Tele and stonehearted have to say about Soul Survivor?
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: September 9, 2014 14:12
Quote
DoxaQuote
Witness
Itself and in itself not among my top four songs there in the narrow contest, but one of so many contenders for fifth favourite, usually a couple of others slightly preferred though.
Heh, I have given up that task to put EXILE songs into preferable order... Some of the songs took longer to grow on me, but now they are "EXILE's children", and I love all of them not just dearly but equally as well I think...
- Doxa
I almost never enter into deep ranking of songs (or albums), (much more often superficial presentations, probably, in case of being in lack of substance), but was compelled to try to do it to some extent by kleermaker in his thread "Five Favourite Exile Songs" at the start of the year. As lists seem to be in the vogue on Tell Me, and I had little else to say, something of the kind was only what I was able to offer. Really, it is the whole that is important. And the qualitative assessment most of all, of songs or albums alike, if one has a background to do so.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 9, 2014 14:17
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
If Exile is one big party, it's surely a dangerous one... So much darkness, scariness and mystique in one package.
For me, it's more of a rollercoaster ride than a party. Then again, people party differently
Well, IT IS a helluva party, and a damn dangerous one, including all those elements you described... SOME GIRLS is probably more 'party album' from the outset, fun and everything, but it is actually just a 'coctail party on the street', very light-weight compared to dark waters of EXILE...
I think the 'party' element in EXILE comes mostly from the inspired playing, and like when one is drunk/stoned enough, one just don't care about anything, and is not afraid of doing or trying anything. But it really is 'kids, don't try this at home'... And even for the Stones, EXILE was once in a life time party. And I'm afraid that they probably never quite survived the hangover it left... I don't think they would ever sound so edgy and scareless and dangerous as they do sound there, and a part of me feels a bit melancholic when "Soul Survivor" ends and knows that the band would never ever again sound so hot as they do there. But then one needs just to put the needle back on the beginning of "Rocks Off" and start again...
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 15:17
Just thinking more about the 'miracle' of EXILE... It captures the band in many ways in the very top of their heights, but also in an unique situation. There is that incredible elixir of life everywhere in it, and it sounds so effortless and naturally flowing, so relaxed and loose, but still damn tight and sharp. Where did that mindset derive form?
If we forget the cirmustances due to where it was partly recorded, the gypsy life style, the drugs and everything, 1971 was a strange year for the Stones to start doing a new record. They simply were the biggest rock and roll band in the world. That is to say, while they start doing previous record, The Beatles was still around, and whatever they have done by then was always compared to, and probably let shadow by, the BigFour. Now there was not that entity anymore. The Stones actually were the only true survivors of the 60's big ones, the true leaders, since Dylan was doing whatever he was then up to. Hendrix was gone. The new generations of artists were emerging, but The Stones were not considered old-fashionable or even old yet (as they would very soon be). STICKY FINGERS had proven that they had reinvented themselves to be as tight and competent 70's rock band as any of their contemporaries then. Probably Zeppelin would sell more albums already, but so what - they were little boys still compared to the Stones.
So I think that a new context then offered them a kind of relaxed feeling and sense of autonomity and omnipotence, which gave them a courage to rely just on their own instincts and intuitions. Not to prove anything to anyone, but just do whatever they please. They could get away with anything. Probably even the idea of making of a double album - a kind of ambitious idea not just artistically but surely commercially - can be partly explained by their artistic maturity and independence then. I have argued elsewhere lately that Jagger/Richards pen was probably not so sharp as it was just been - to come up with era-defining "Sympathy For The Devil", "Gimme Shelter" caliber of songs - but I think that is part of the charm of EXILE. A song does not need to be so striking or significiant to be great. I think no any album better than EXILE is better suited to be called "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)". The album actually says that in music - that attitude is implicit in EXILE, and emphasizing that by that kind of slogan would have sounded cheap then.
But to go back to party metaphor... I think part of EXILE's unique mindset, is despite recognizing the status of the band, but also that of 'the party might be soon over'... 'So let us party while it is possible, and for jeez's christ harder than ever before!' EXILE is the last album made by 'young men', but at the same time they sound like recognizing their own mortality, that they won't be so young and vital any longer soon. Probably that gives the album its eternal sense of crazy, free, rebellious, careless youth - they want to document that until it's over. In a way it is a testament of what The Rolling Stones ideally is. It probably is a masterpiece by accident, but it is a real, authentic, inspired album, nothing fake in it. Damn hard to follow or copy, as we have wittnessed.
Okay, back listening to "Soul Survivor"...
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:34 by Doxa.
If we forget the cirmustances due to where it was partly recorded, the gypsy life style, the drugs and everything, 1971 was a strange year for the Stones to start doing a new record. They simply were the biggest rock and roll band in the world. That is to say, while they start doing previous record, The Beatles was still around, and whatever they have done by then was always compared to, and probably let shadow by, the BigFour. Now there was not that entity anymore. The Stones actually were the only true survivors of the 60's big ones, the true leaders, since Dylan was doing whatever he was then up to. Hendrix was gone. The new generations of artists were emerging, but The Stones were not considered old-fashionable or even old yet (as they would very soon be). STICKY FINGERS had proven that they had reinvented themselves to be as tight and competent 70's rock band as any of their contemporaries then. Probably Zeppelin would sell more albums already, but so what - they were little boys still compared to the Stones.
So I think that a new context then offered them a kind of relaxed feeling and sense of autonomity and omnipotence, which gave them a courage to rely just on their own instincts and intuitions. Not to prove anything to anyone, but just do whatever they please. They could get away with anything. Probably even the idea of making of a double album - a kind of ambitious idea not just artistically but surely commercially - can be partly explained by their artistic maturity and independence then. I have argued elsewhere lately that Jagger/Richards pen was probably not so sharp as it was just been - to come up with era-defining "Sympathy For The Devil", "Gimme Shelter" caliber of songs - but I think that is part of the charm of EXILE. A song does not need to be so striking or significiant to be great. I think no any album better than EXILE is better suited to be called "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)". The album actually says that in music - that attitude is implicit in EXILE, and emphasizing that by that kind of slogan would have sounded cheap then.
But to go back to party metaphor... I think part of EXILE's unique mindset, is despite recognizing the status of the band, but also that of 'the party might be soon over'... 'So let us party while it is possible, and for jeez's christ harder than ever before!' EXILE is the last album made by 'young men', but at the same time they sound like recognizing their own mortality, that they won't be so young and vital any longer soon. Probably that gives the album its eternal sense of crazy, free, rebellious, careless youth - they want to document that until it's over. In a way it is a testament of what The Rolling Stones ideally is. It probably is a masterpiece by accident, but it is a real, authentic, inspired album, nothing fake in it. Damn hard to follow or copy, as we have wittnessed.
Okay, back listening to "Soul Survivor"...
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:34 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 9, 2014 15:26
It's Only America (But We Like It) would be another appropriate title
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 15:34
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It's Only America (But We Like It) would be another appropriate title
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: September 9, 2014 15:44
I can't resist a remark (or two):
In the sense that EXILE ON MAIN STREET should or could be seen as "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", I think in that case it is only in one sense, but not yet in the other. The first sense concerns more simple song material than recently before. However, it is not yet "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", understood as music that has not got that "larger than life" quality, which the band was adored in standing for, on the contrary, as is evident also from what else you write in this thread. For the song of the same name evokes something of a wish, or, maybe, only flirting with the thought, of being freed, at least at times, from that connection and all the myths of the band, something which neither was granted them yet with that song either.
(And I still hesitate in joining your hypothesis that Jagger and Richards at that moment had a clear horizon that their songs of daring ambition would be past, even if they in the short run might have felt a wish not always to be that ambitious (or even over-ambitious).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:48 by Witness.
In the sense that EXILE ON MAIN STREET should or could be seen as "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", I think in that case it is only in one sense, but not yet in the other. The first sense concerns more simple song material than recently before. However, it is not yet "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", understood as music that has not got that "larger than life" quality, which the band was adored in standing for, on the contrary, as is evident also from what else you write in this thread. For the song of the same name evokes something of a wish, or, maybe, only flirting with the thought, of being freed, at least at times, from that connection and all the myths of the band, something which neither was granted them yet with that song either.
(And I still hesitate in joining your hypothesis that Jagger and Richards at that moment had a clear horizon that their songs of daring ambition would be past, even if they in the short run might have felt a wish not always to be that ambitious (or even over-ambitious).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:48 by Witness.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 15:56
Quote
Doxa
So I think that a new context then offered them a kind of relaxed feeling and sense of autonomity and omnipotence, which gave them a courage to rely just on their own instincts and intuitions. Not to prove anything to anyone, but just do whatever they please. They could get away with anything. Probably even the idea of making of a double album - a kind of ambitious idea not just artistically but surely commercially - can be partly explained by their artistic maturity and independence then. I have argued elsewhere lately that Jagger/Richards pen was probably not so sharp as it was just been - to come up with era-defining "Sympathy For The Devil", "Gimme Shelter" caliber of songs - but I think that is part of the charm of EXILE. A song does not need to be so striking or significiant to be great. I think no any album better than EXILE is better suited to be called "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)". The album actually says that in music - that attitude is implicit in EXILE, and emphasizing that by that kind of slogan would have sounded cheap then.
Okay, back listening to "Soul Survivor"...
- Doxa
I think that they felt so relaxed at having their own record label and as you say, were unrivalled as the greatest rock'n'roll band, at least of their 60s peers, that they afford themselves the luxury of a double album.
And I think that decision came from circumstance. I'm not sure whether they set out to make a double album. That has never been revealed.
But their day to day situation proved inspirational. From books written about their time at Nellcote we know that every day presented itself with an adventure...a situation to deal with. And that must have proved really inspirational from a writing point of view. Constant flux. People coming and going, fights with the police, hangers on, gangs, mind blowing drugs etc. It really must have seemed like a 9 month party (or however long they stayed there). And if ever an album reflected the conditions of its making then Exile is it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 15:57 by Silver Dagger.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: September 9, 2014 16:16
I would guess that both situation and outlook also had some intimidating aspects and might be experienced somewhat uncertain, but that they felt strengthened by their obstinacy and ability to act during the circumstances and each leaning towards their collective. That it was the disposition to work and in between party, even when there are clouds on the immediate horizon, after the best tradition of blues music, that kept them going.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: September 9, 2014 16:18
They were lucky, too, having great songs in the vault from 69/70 + great session musicians in LA to help them make half of the album.
Then again, the wholeness of it is breathtaking, imo, so they had to have some kind of a plan for it.
Then again, the wholeness of it is breathtaking, imo, so they had to have some kind of a plan for it.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
rbk
()
Date: September 9, 2014 16:21
"Exile'" is such a musical excursion, in and of itself, that one is practically exhausted by the end. Then come the marvelous. anthemic swagger and unique riffage of "Soul Survivor" to reinvigorate the listener and leave them wanting more. It is masterful and has always been one of my favorite stones songs.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 16:44
Quote
Witness
I can't resist a remark (or two):
In the sense that EXILE ON MAIN STREET should or could be seen as "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", I think in that case it is only in one sense, but not yet in the other. The first sense concerns more simple song material than recently before. However, it is not yet "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", understood as music that has not got that "larger than life" quality, which the band was adored in standing for, on the contrary, as is evident also from what else you write in this thread. For the song of the same name evokes something of a wish, or, maybe, only flirting with the thought, of being freed, at least at times, from that connection and all the myths of the band, something which neither was granted them yet with that song either.
(And I still hesitate in joining your hypothesis that Jagger and Richards at that moment had a clear horizon that their songs of daring ambition would be past, even if they in the short run might have felt a wish not always to be that ambitious (or even over-ambitious).
It's Only Rock'n'Roll is about as far as you can get from the real life rock'n'roll of Exile On Main Street. I'd say that IORR along with Star Star and perhaps even Dancing With Mr D was the start of the cartoon era of Stones self-parodying themselves.
I'm not saying they're bad songs as I enjoy all of three immensely but you can trace the roots of Some Girls straight through to those 3 songs.
And possibly the main difference in songwriting from Goat's Head Soup era onwards is that Mick n Keith lived in different countries.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: September 9, 2014 16:47
Quote
Witness
In the sense that EXILE ON MAIN STREET should or could be seen as "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", I think in that case it is only in one sense, but not yet in the other. The first sense concerns more simple song material than recently before. However, it is not yet "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)", understood as music that has not got that "larger than life" quality, which the band was adored in standing for, on the contrary, as is evident also from what else you write in this thread. For the song of the same name evokes something of a wish, or, maybe, only flirting with the thought, of being freed, at least at times, from that connection and all the myths of the band, something which neither was granted them yet with that song either.
A good comment! The way I think of "It's Only Rock'n'Roll" expressing the content was more like describing the wide scale of different styles and genres of American music (of the last 20 years or so) the album is full of, and they didn't hesitate to release whatever experiments they had there. In many ways it reminds us of their cover days of the past, but now (mostly) giving their own original - and mature - takes on the songs and styles, some of it going even retro. Even though that sort of thing was not nothing unique or odd back then, The Stones rather strongly make an anti-comment on anything 'progressive' and 'instrumentally demanding' especially British rock music was then flirting with. The songs were, like you, said "simple" (can't find a better word), and played more with an attitude than with skills. There weren't such ambitious musical adventures as "Moonlight Mile" or "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" that might indicate that the Stones also might have a say in those kind 'larger' musical horizons. That they had a world-class guitar hero in their band, like STICKY FINGERS had made it clear, was almost buried into mix, like they were hiding that gun... A 'normal' blues rock band - or were they already called hard rock bands? - would have used that weapon differently...
In a way I think the Stones are giving there a lesson of rock and roll what it initially is all about and how is to be played. As a contemporary statement it was musically looking more back than forwards (for example, compared to STICKY FINGERS). It almost states that they refuse to develop...
But yep - rock and roll still is 'larger than life' and in EXILE the Stones give us a reminder why it really is so. A study in essentials. True that later when Jagger actually came up with that slogan, there was more in it, and probably even trying to reduce some of its significance. I tend to think that it is much more clever statement than what normally is thought.
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
drewmaster
()
Date: September 9, 2014 20:01
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
Doxa
But to the whole feel of the album, I think "Soul Survivor" as perfect ending as "Rocks Off" is the beginning in setting the mood right. "Rocks Off" welcomes one to forget one's normal days sorrows, and join in the endless party. And when one finally get to the final side, and having gone through "Stop Breaking Down", and probably being a bit afraid of the hang-over, then treated with "Shine A Light", a kind of good-bye song, reminding one of the world outside the party, and the dangers of this endless party, in comes "Soul Survivor" and states 'fvck it! This party ends no ever! Nothing can stop us!". Has pure vitality of rock and roll, in its highest extreme can be, ever manifested so well as it is done here?
- Doxa
Doxa, I always look forward to reading your critique as you have such a unique way of appreciating Stones' music. The section above is a great example. Thinking of Exile as one long party and then getting to the final song and hearing it as 'fu ck you, you think the show's over but this party never ends'. That's inspired.
And ain't it just the truth.
I second that. Both of you guys make me proud to be a Stones fan and a member of this forum.
Drew
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: September 9, 2014 20:43
Quote
drewmasterQuote
Silver DaggerQuote
Doxa
But to the whole feel of the album, I think "Soul Survivor" as perfect ending as "Rocks Off" is the beginning in setting the mood right. "Rocks Off" welcomes one to forget one's normal days sorrows, and join in the endless party. And when one finally get to the final side, and having gone through "Stop Breaking Down", and probably being a bit afraid of the hang-over, then treated with "Shine A Light", a kind of good-bye song, reminding one of the world outside the party, and the dangers of this endless party, in comes "Soul Survivor" and states 'fvck it! This party ends no ever! Nothing can stop us!". Has pure vitality of rock and roll, in its highest extreme can be, ever manifested so well as it is done here?
- Doxa
Doxa, I always look forward to reading your critique as you have such a unique way of appreciating Stones' music. The section above is a great example. Thinking of Exile as one long party and then getting to the final song and hearing it as 'fu ck you, you think the show's over but this party never ends'. That's inspired.
And ain't it just the truth.
I second that. Both of you guys make me proud to be a Stones fan and a member of this forum.
Drew
Aw shucks Drew. You're one of the club too with your enlightened observations.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: September 9, 2014 21:39
If I may present one other remark, Doxa, in the direction of a possible objection, I want to tentatively say this. Rock, as recorded and played by some important bands, among them especially the Rolling Stones, was not always, maybe not usually, songs of rock, simply. Rock understood as that music that had been abstracted into an independent music form, in itself enough, (by some called "classic rock" ), from the original genre music forms, from which rock developed. Rather Rolling Stones music, (after 1967) rather often keeps on moving into and out of those earlier forms and newer forms (like reggae, later on) or develops some hybrids between the original pre-rock forms or newer genre forms and rock. Something of the greatness of the Rolling Stones to me consists of that possible fact. In this interpretation I agree with Tele71's viewpoint (in that other thread) that in some sense the Rolling Stones, despite playing rock, is not a rock band, even when they play rock.
And when I read how you argue for your suggestion of "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)" as an alternative name for EXILE, you really say as much yourself, whether it is movement back ("retro" ) or forward ("innovation" ). Maybe another diagnosis might be used, which would contribute somewhat to undermine my own belief that the Stones did not for good wish to say goodbye to music adventures. In case, it could be said that the Stones wanted to save the music forms they supplied to ("rock" ), from becoming too much an arts form. Not out of creative exhaustion, or because they did not at that moment have those grand songs and melodies available, but possibly from a reflection of theirs about what these popular music forms ought to be like. That is, not to become an arts form too much, even when it is ambitious as "rock".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 21:42 by Witness.
And when I read how you argue for your suggestion of "It's Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)" as an alternative name for EXILE, you really say as much yourself, whether it is movement back ("retro" ) or forward ("innovation" ). Maybe another diagnosis might be used, which would contribute somewhat to undermine my own belief that the Stones did not for good wish to say goodbye to music adventures. In case, it could be said that the Stones wanted to save the music forms they supplied to ("rock" ), from becoming too much an arts form. Not out of creative exhaustion, or because they did not at that moment have those grand songs and melodies available, but possibly from a reflection of theirs about what these popular music forms ought to be like. That is, not to become an arts form too much, even when it is ambitious as "rock".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 21:42 by Witness.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: September 9, 2014 21:56
I think they pretty much just happened to write and play what they felt moved to write and play at
any given time. Mick may be more methodical/self-conscious about it, later on, like, the kids are
listening to disco or WE can show them how punk we are, but Exile is, if nothing else, an organic
album. At least its origins. And then Mick polished it up in the studio some. Part of the reason,
I believe, Mick says things like not our best and it's too long--it's generally such an unselfconscious
meandering organic snapshot of where they happened to be at the time.
re: Soul Survivor -- I see it as ambivalent as Rocks Off. I don't see Rocks Off as a celebration,
or party, per se, as much as a frantic frenetic splashing around half trying to make sense of the
current set of realities--what it is now, what it was before--who I am now? what have I lost? do
I even care? Sort of a cheerfully reckless song, hurtling along, driving on, steep winding cliff
roads. And Soul Survivor, as the other bookend, is the exhaustion at the end of a 10-day bender,
surrounded by the beautiful squalid "wreckage" of the parties and adventures and strange forays,
not at all unhappy or regretful about it, but bemused and resigned and very tired, but with some
fuel still in the tank, ready to goagain if the opportunity should present itself...and it will.
In some ways I see all of Exile as not a "happy" album but both content, in a way, with where things
are, and at the same time restless.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 21:59 by swiss.
any given time. Mick may be more methodical/self-conscious about it, later on, like, the kids are
listening to disco or WE can show them how punk we are, but Exile is, if nothing else, an organic
album. At least its origins. And then Mick polished it up in the studio some. Part of the reason,
I believe, Mick says things like not our best and it's too long--it's generally such an unselfconscious
meandering organic snapshot of where they happened to be at the time.
re: Soul Survivor -- I see it as ambivalent as Rocks Off. I don't see Rocks Off as a celebration,
or party, per se, as much as a frantic frenetic splashing around half trying to make sense of the
current set of realities--what it is now, what it was before--who I am now? what have I lost? do
I even care? Sort of a cheerfully reckless song, hurtling along, driving on, steep winding cliff
roads. And Soul Survivor, as the other bookend, is the exhaustion at the end of a 10-day bender,
surrounded by the beautiful squalid "wreckage" of the parties and adventures and strange forays,
not at all unhappy or regretful about it, but bemused and resigned and very tired, but with some
fuel still in the tank, ready to goagain if the opportunity should present itself...and it will.
In some ways I see all of Exile as not a "happy" album but both content, in a way, with where things
are, and at the same time restless.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-09 21:59 by swiss.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
Brstonesfan
()
Date: September 9, 2014 22:32
One of the best tracks on the album and I have never heard it played on the radio.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: September 9, 2014 23:44
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
It's Only America (But We Like It) would be another appropriate title
- Doxa
American Head Soup is certainly more awkward.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: September 9, 2014 23:46
Quote
swiss
I think they pretty much just happened to write and play what they felt moved to write and play at
any given time. Mick may be more methodical/self-conscious about it, later on, like, the kids are
listening to disco or WE can show them how punk we are, but Exile is, if nothing else, an organic
album. At least its origins. And then Mick polished it up in the studio some. Part of the reason,
I believe, Mick says things like not our best and it's too long--it's generally such an unselfconscious
meandering organic snapshot of where they happened to be at the time.
re: Soul Survivor -- I see it as ambivalent as Rocks Off. I don't see Rocks Off as a celebration,
or party, per se, as much as a frantic frenetic splashing around half trying to make sense of the
current set of realities--what it is now, what it was before--who I am now? what have I lost? do
I even care? Sort of a cheerfully reckless song, hurtling along, driving on, steep winding cliff
roads. And Soul Survivor, as the other bookend, is the exhaustion at the end of a 10-day bender,
surrounded by the beautiful squalid "wreckage" of the parties and adventures and strange forays,
not at all unhappy or regretful about it, but bemused and resigned and very tired, but with some
fuel still in the tank, ready to goagain if the opportunity should present itself...and it will.
In some ways I see all of Exile as not a "happy" album but both content, in a way, with where things
are, and at the same time restless.
I think they could have called the album, "Cognitive Dissonance" and that would have summed it up.
Re: Track Talk: Soul Survivor
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 10, 2014 06:49
Quote
swiss
I think they pretty much just happened to write and play what they felt moved to write and play at
any given time. Mick may be more methodical/self-conscious about it, later on, like, the kids are
listening to disco or WE can show them how punk we are, but Exile is, if nothing else, an organic
album. At least its origins. And then Mick polished it up in the studio some. Part of the reason,
I believe, Mick says things like not our best and it's too long--it's generally such an unselfconscious
meandering organic snapshot of where they happened to be at the time.
re: Soul Survivor -- I see it as ambivalent as Rocks Off. I don't see Rocks Off as a celebration,
or party, per se, as much as a frantic frenetic splashing around half trying to make sense of the
current set of realities--what it is now, what it was before--who I am now? what have I lost? do
I even care? Sort of a cheerfully reckless song, hurtling along, driving on, steep winding cliff
roads. And Soul Survivor, as the other bookend, is the exhaustion at the end of a 10-day bender,
surrounded by the beautiful squalid "wreckage" of the parties and adventures and strange forays,
not at all unhappy or regretful about it, but bemused and resigned and very tired, but with some
fuel still in the tank, ready to goagain if the opportunity should present itself...and it will.
In some ways I see all of Exile as not a "happy" album but both content, in a way, with where things
are, and at the same time restless.
I think the beauty of it (or alchemy, as I like to say) is that they made it sound organic even though it wasn't. There's the Nellcote sessions, which comprise half the basic tracks of the album, and then there's various odds and ends that date back to Let It Bleed, and then there's the LA overdub sessions, where the gospel singing and a lot of other stuff was added. The genius of the artists is that they made it sound as if the whole thing came up from a subterranean swamp (and I mean that in a good way).
As for Soul Survivor: Just don't call it "filler"!
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