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DandelionPowderman

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Chris Fountain
I wonder how received Goat's Head Soup would have been if they kept Tops and WOF. and ditched Star Star and Train Wreck.

It would had screwed up the configuration of Tattoo You. So all is well.

Too bad those songs weren't finished.

Same with Worried About You, Start Me Up and Slave. Those tracks would have made Black And Blue a classic, imo.

Start Me Up / Never Stop are from 1978 though.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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Chris Fountain
I wonder how received Goat's Head Soup would have been if they kept Tops and WOF. and ditched Star Star and Train Wreck.

It would had screwed up the configuration of Tattoo You. So all is well.

Too bad those songs weren't finished.

Same with Worried About You, Start Me Up and Slave. Those tracks would have made Black And Blue a classic, imo.

Start Me Up / Never Stop are from 1978 though.

Mathijs

Wasn't it started back in 1975? I know it didn't become the track we know before 1978, but...

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Chris Fountain
Great points! Destiny played a role in this scenario. Yes the 1975 tour was a national success, it seems like the 1978 tour sorta went under the radar although many in this forum love and uphold that tour. At that time, the stones were slipping just a bit.

And then Start me Up came on the radio, the release of Tattoo You, new era of Stadium shows, cable TV etc.. it was a beginning of a new world. I'm glad they didn't for get about ER album on that tour. Still Life may be the most underappreciated album in this forum.

In other words it was the right time for WAY and SMU, etc... debuted - all worked out I think

So which was the "bigger" year for the Stones in terms of making a big splash / return to cultural importance ... '78 (when Some Girls / Miss You arrived) or '81 (with Tattoo You / Start Me Up)? I was too young to really remember.

Drew

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drewmaster

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Chris Fountain
Great points! Destiny played a role in this scenario. Yes the 1975 tour was a national success, it seems like the 1978 tour sorta went under the radar although many in this forum love and uphold that tour. At that time, the stones were slipping just a bit.

And then Start me Up came on the radio, the release of Tattoo You, new era of Stadium shows, cable TV etc.. it was a beginning of a new world. I'm glad they didn't for get about ER album on that tour. Still Life may be the most underappreciated album in this forum.

In other words it was the right time for WAY and SMU, etc... debuted - all worked out I think

So which was the "bigger" year for the Stones in terms of making a big splash / return to cultural importance ... '78 (when Some Girls / Miss You arrived) or '81 (with Tattoo You / Start Me Up)? I was too young to really remember.

Drew

Oh, 78 for sure - because punk had intervened and it was clear that the band was acknowledging the changing times. Some Girls set the revival and although Emotional Rescue saw them treading water with more of the same, 81 was more of a personal artistic renaissance as the songs on Tattoo You were just great tunes and showed the Stones naturally evolving and setting their own agenda again.

From Goats Head Soup through to Black And Blue the Stones were generally perceived to be on an artistic decline. Bowie and Glam Rock had arrived and stolen the Stones' thunder, prompting Jagger to try and compete by wearing those ridiculous costumes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-22 18:37 by Silver Dagger.

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Chris Fountain
I wonder how received Goat's Head Soup would have been if they kept Tops and WOF. and ditched Star Star and Train Wreck.

An interesting thought. I think the most valuable, inspired and naturally-flowing material they did at the time was this sort of 'soft', melodic, reflective slow song section those two TATTOO YOU tracks nicely represent. In album we have "Angie", "Coming Down Again", "Winter", "100 Years Ago", even "Hide Your Love" and "Can You Hear The Music?"... I think the problem at the time was that they thought they cannot re-invent their style so dramatically. It would shock their audiences, and probably, everybody. If "Tops" and "Waitin' On A Friend" would have been developed further and released there instead of those two 'old school' rockers, oh man... Would their energetic, wild out-law image and rock and roll credibility have totally gone? Them being just old farts singing slow ballads to 'mature' taste? (I would have loved to hear that album though!). Releasing such a cheesy (but incredibly beautiful) single A-side as "Angie" alone did some damage to their reputation (but surely gain new fans), and the album despite selling well at the time, has been generally critizied for being 'non-typical' Stones album. Besides, as SilverDagger mentioned above, it was the first album the Stones slipped from the radar of top hot acts of the day as far as relevance go. But since the latter is always up to the quick-changing taste of the kids of the day, I don't think anything they could have had done would have affected to that fate. Time waits for no one, indeed.

At the time Jagger also said that he is "bored with rock and roll". I've always interpreted that as a typical Jagger comment not having any truth-value, but I don't know - probably there was a real concern there, especially if one listens a bit forced-sounding rocker section of GOATS HEAD SOUP (of which, I think, only "Doo Doo Doo" (Heartbreaker) manages to sound as trying to reach something novel.) I could very easily understand that Mick and the rest felt like being emptied their pockets with and by EXILE as far as rock and roll go. Who wouldn't have?

Anyway, most of the Stones albums are very eclectic, so I think it was natural that they skipped some of the similar sounding songs out to give some variance in material (same thing as with BLACK AND BLUE in regard to "Slave" and "Worried About You"). I think the over-all problem with GOATS HEAD SOUP is that it is somehow out of focus - it has an odd flow, and especially those two mentioned old-time rockers ("Silver Train" and "Star Star") do not really fit to the rest of the songs (although the opener number was an oddity in itself). The album sounds like a compromise between trying to reach a new direction (and probably having a natural instinct to go there) and having no balls to go there really (but instead stick to the old and familair, without a real inspiration).

But still it is a damn good album! A fascinating album to reflect from the times when the Stones were still truely a living and breathing band, artists having their ups and downs (and even those 'downs' were mostly incredibly good, at least by hindsight).

- Doxa

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Silver Dagger
Oh, 78 for sure - because punk had intervened and it was clear that the band was acknowledging the changing times. Some Girls set the revival and although Emotional Rescue saw them treading water with more of the same, 81 was more of a personal artistic renaissance as the songs on Tattoo You were just great tunes and showed the Stones naturally evolving and setting their own agenda again.

From Goats Head Soup through to Black And Blue the Stones were generally perceived to be on an artistic decline. Bowie and Glam Rock had arrived and stolen the Stones' thunder, prompting Jagger to try and compete by wearing those ridiculous costumes.

Like this one?

[www.youtube.com]

Drew

i always loved silver train, goes well with the promo video, very underrated song and i know some hate it, but it really rocks. and from a very good album.

Silver train is not bad but it's one of those half-developed kind of songs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-22 23:41 by ryanpow.

I love Silver Train as well as all of Goats Head Soup. Probably one of their strongest albums imo.

The silver train could quite possibly be symbolic of junk and needle ….

Silver train is a-coming, think I want to get on now
Oh yeah


And I did not know her name
But I sure loved the way that she laughed and took my money


Ding dong, oh yeah ……………………………………..



ROCKMAN

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DandelionPowderman

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Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman

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Chris Fountain
I wonder how received Goat's Head Soup would have been if they kept Tops and WOF. and ditched Star Star and Train Wreck.

It would had screwed up the configuration of Tattoo You. So all is well.

Too bad those songs weren't finished.

Same with Worried About You, Start Me Up and Slave. Those tracks would have made Black And Blue a classic, imo.

Start Me Up / Never Stop are from 1978 though.

Mathijs

Wasn't it started back in 1975? I know it didn't become the track we know before 1978, but...

Who knows....but the versions available on boot or tape trading circles are all from 1977/1978.

Mathijs

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Silver Dagger

From Goats Head Soup through to Black And Blue the Stones were generally perceived to be on an artistic decline. Bowie and Glam Rock had arrived and stolen the Stones' thunder, prompting Jagger to try and compete by wearing those ridiculous costumes.

Yeah but it was Mick’s ridiculously affected vocals, rather than his clothes, which ensured that the music would increasingly descend into self-parody.
Silver Train would be more highly regarded if Keith had sang lead. He also should’ve pulled lead vocal duties on Dancing with Mr. D, Angie and Winter – those songs would benefit from Keith’s rawness and sincerity which by 1973 Mick had become incapable of delivering. Mick does OK on Heartbreaker, Star Star, Hide Your Love and 100 Years Ago (while Can You Hear the Music wouldn’t suit Keith anyways). Five songs sung by Keith, five by Mick. If they wanted to eclipse Exile that was the roadmap. Keith scoring a major hit with Angie and Mick’s increasing glam tendencies would’ve probably seen the band break up in 74. It would’ve been the right call to because both still had enough creative juices at that time to turn out some spectacular solo work. Regroup in the early 80s to release Tattoo You. Seems so obvious in retrospect.

Mick's vocals on Angie is perfection. However, the thought of Keith singing Silver Train I must admit sounds interesting.

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DandelionPowderman
Mick's vocals on Angie is perfection. However, the thought of Keith singing Silver Train I must admit sounds interesting.

I agree to both accounts. I could easily imagine Keith singing Happy-like high and straight from the heart "Silver Train". Would have beautifully suited to his voice back then. I could imagine Mick and Keith doing the chorus together to the same microphone live a'la "Happy" as well...

- Doxa

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drewmaster

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Silver Dagger
Oh, 78 for sure - because punk had intervened and it was clear that the band was acknowledging the changing times. Some Girls set the revival and although Emotional Rescue saw them treading water with more of the same, 81 was more of a personal artistic renaissance as the songs on Tattoo You were just great tunes and showed the Stones naturally evolving and setting their own agenda again.

From Goats Head Soup through to Black And Blue the Stones were generally perceived to be on an artistic decline. Bowie and Glam Rock had arrived and stolen the Stones' thunder, prompting Jagger to try and compete by wearing those ridiculous costumes.

Like this one?

[www.youtube.com]

Drew

I love Black And Blue. By far the best recorded Stones' album.

I;m glad Doxa mentions the ballads. I had actually started writing a new thread about the 70's ballads, but erased it.
The Stones have always been excellent writers, and more - they know how to deliver a ballad. With Mick Jagger as your singer and interpreter it would be hard to miss.
I don't think in 70's any of his vocals was over affected, they are all beautiful. "Angie" is perfection, the words, the melody, Jagger's delivery. "Winter" is even better. But Keith too "Coming Down Again" could only have been sung right by him.
I was listening to the outtakes again, and was amazed to realize that "Angie" string section must've had a huge Cello , maybe even Contrabass section. In a different mix you can hear the bottom end of the strings much better. I had always assumed on maybe 1st and 2nd violins and 1 or 2 cellos.
And "Winter" really makes re-appreciate one of the main attributes in Charlie's playing: the way he plays those ballads. He follows Mick. And the song. It is never about this notion "Once you have started you can't stop" Many drummers come in with a fill and then settle into a beat and stay there. CW does whatever he feels like. "Memory Motel", "Till the Next goodbye" some of his best drumming. And his Hi Hat on "Winter" is to die for. That part, I think it is after Taylor's first solo when Jagger goes "Sometimes I think about you baby alright..", the dynamics have dropped a tad, and then Charlie starts tapping 16'ths on the closed Hi Hat, and it is so good!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-23 15:42 by Palace Revolution 2000.

Damn I can't get Silver Train out of my head. I'm not complaining!! Once the tempo picks up the train is rolling, love the groove...

Keith singing Silver Train?Good no

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Palace Revolution 2000
I;m glad Doxa mentions the ballads. I had actually started writing a new thread about the 70's ballads, but erased it.
The Stones have always been excellent writers, and more - they know how to deliver a ballad. With Mick Jagger as your singer and interpreter it would be hard to miss.
I don't think in 70's any of his vocals was over affected, they are all beautiful. "Angie" is perfection, the words, the melody, Jagger's delivery. "Winter" is even better. But Keith too "Coming Down Again" could only have been sung right by him.
I was listening to the outtakes again, and was amazed to realize that "Angie" string section must've had a huge Cello , maybe even Contrabass section. In a different mix you can hear the bottom end of the strings much better. I had always assumed on maybe 1st and 2nd violins and 1 or 2 cellos.
And "Winter" really makes re-appreciate one of the main attributes in Charlie's playing: the way he plays those ballads. He follows Mick. And the song. It is never about this notion "Once you have started you can't stop" Many drummers come in with a fill and then settle into a beat and stay there. CW does whatever he feels like. "Memory Motel", "Till the Next goodbye" some of his best drumming. And his Hi Hat on "Winter" is to die for. That part, I think it is after Taylor's first solo when Jagger goes "Sometimes I think about you baby alright..", the dynamics have dropped a tad, and then Charlie starts tapping 16'ths on the closed Hi Hat, and it is so good!

Angie has always been a favorite of mine, and was one of the highlights of Desert Trip wkd 2 setlist which also included great versions of Sweet Virginia, Just Your Fool, Live With Me, and Get Off My Cloud amidst all the usual tunes. But I clearly remember Angie under a warm startlit Desert sky, and the imagery shown on enormous screen behind the band...I was drifting back to when I bought Made in the Shade as a 12 yr. old in '75 and playing the album repeatedly for weeks on end. Studio-wise, it's as perfect of a ballad as you can get imo - from the acoustic guitar, to the lyrics, to Mick's vocals, to the strings, and the overall arrangement.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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DandelionPowderman
Mick's vocals on Angie is perfection. However, the thought of Keith singing Silver Train I must admit sounds interesting.

Perfection? Yes! Exactly right, and therein lies the problem. Perfection is what becomes AM radio fodder. Sure, I won’t deny it’s a great vocal performance but hold off on the superlatives until you’ve heard Keith’s version because everybody knows (or should know) Keith does ballads better – that’s a simple irrefutable fact.

Angie perhaps isn’t the best example because I have to admit Mick does an admirable job of not oversinging for a change – the restraint he shows actually makes him sound believable. Usually he’s too peacocky to come off sincere or convincing and at times you even wonder about his sexual orientation. Keith on the other hand gives you raw emotion that always sounds heartfelt and earnest. Fool To Cry is perhaps a better example of how Keith’s tasteful vocal style would’ve served the song better than Jagger’s cartoonish crooning. But even in the case of Angie I think Keith could’ve made it a little more ‘Stonesy’ for lack of a better word. Sure, Mick’s version was a big hit but for most of us Angie isn’t amongst our favorite Stones tunes because – let’s be honest – it’s a bit wimpy. Keith would’ve roughened the edges, toughened it up a bit which is what we as Stones fans appreciate most.

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Swayed1967

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DandelionPowderman
Mick's vocals on Angie is perfection. However, the thought of Keith singing Silver Train I must admit sounds interesting.

Perfection? Yes! Exactly right, and therein lies the problem. Perfection is what becomes AM radio fodder. Sure, I won’t deny it’s a great vocal performance but hold off on the superlatives until you’ve heard Keith’s version because everybody knows (or should know) Keith does ballads better – that’s a simple irrefutable fact.

Angie perhaps isn’t the best example because I have to admit Mick does an admirable job of not oversinging for a change – the restraint he shows actually makes him sound believable. Usually he’s too peacocky to come off sincere or convincing and at times you even wonder about his sexual orientation. Keith on the other hand gives you raw emotion that always sounds heartfelt and earnest. Fool To Cry is perhaps a better example of how Keith’s tasteful vocal style would’ve served the song better than Jagger’s cartoonish crooning. But even in the case of Angie I think Keith could’ve made it a little more ‘Stonesy’ for lack of a better word. Sure, Mick’s version was a big hit but for most of us Angie isn’t amongst our favorite Stones tunes because – let’s be honest – it’s a bit wimpy. Keith would’ve roughened the edges, toughened it up a bit which is what we as Stones fans appreciate most.

I understand, and I think you have many good points here. It's just that Angie is so darn beautiful. I can't distance myself from it. I'm still hooked

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Swayed1967

Yeah but it was Mick’s ridiculously affected vocals, rather than his clothes, which ensured that the music would increasingly descend into self-parody.

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Swayed1967

Usually he’s too peacocky to come off sincere or convincing...

Fool To Cry is perhaps a better example of how Keith’s tasteful vocal style would’ve served the song better than Jagger’s cartoonish crooning.

Yup, yup and yup.

His vocals is one of the most distinctive things about the band, but what you say is so true, he is rarely all that convincing emotionally.

I LOVE No Expectations for example, but he doesn't nail the emotion of the song 100%. Keith would probably have sung it more authentically and brought out more emotional weight.

The affected vocals got more and more obvious and off putting, one of the things I dislike about the music from 70's onwards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-24 11:25 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Swayed1967

Yeah but it was Mick’s ridiculously affected vocals, rather than his clothes, which ensured that the music would increasingly descend into self-parody.

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Swayed1967

Usually he’s too peacocky to come off sincere or convincing...

Fool To Cry is perhaps a better example of how Keith’s tasteful vocal style would’ve served the song better than Jagger’s cartoonish crooning.

Yup, yup and yup.

His vocals is one of the most distinctive things about the band, but what you say is so true, he is rarely all that convincing emotionally.

I LOVE No Expectations for example, but he doesn't nail the emotion of the song 100%. Keith would probably have sung it more authentically and brought out more emotional weight.

The affected vocals got more and more obvious and off putting, one of the things I dislike about the music from 70's onwards.

Bet you can't stand Faraway Eyes in that case.

It has a great chorus, but, I can't be arsed listening through the nonsense to get to it.

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Silver Dagger

Bet you can't stand Faraway Eyes in that case.

Mick Jagger always says that he can't sing country music without a tongue in cheek. Something I am sure Keith Richards doesn't agree with at all.
However, it works on, for example, Dear Doctor (although it's on the edge), Dead Flowers, Sweet Virginia, because although the lyrics and delivery show a sense of humor, it's not overdoing it and it still feels like a song.
On the other hand, Faraway Eyes could have been a sketch of Monty Python or SNL, so it diminishes the musical enjoyment, which is a pity because the guitars are kind of nice. It's the weakest link of Some Girls.

Mick got trapped in his borderline camp-singing style, just like Keith did with the open G-stuff. By «trapped» I mean that people expect to hear more of it. Those sounds became «them».

But Keith found a way out of it in the 70s. There are barely any open G-guitars from him on Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You. He sort of went back to basic rockabilly, Berry, rock'n'roll.

That said, Mick has his moments of sincerity, even today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-24 11:50 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman
Mick got trapped in his borderline camp-singing style, just like Keith did with the open G-stuff. By «trapped» I mean that people expect to hear more of it. Those sounds became «them».

But Keith found a way out of it in the 70s. There are barely any open G-guitars from him on Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You. He sort of went back to basic rockabilly, Berry, rock'n'roll.

That said, Mick has his moments of sincerity, even today.

Evening Gown perhaps?

Fool To Cry at the London Stadium (1st night) was a 'shivers down your spine' moment, I thought.

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Silver Dagger

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DandelionPowderman
Mick got trapped in his borderline camp-singing style, just like Keith did with the open G-stuff. By «trapped» I mean that people expect to hear more of it. Those sounds became «them».

But Keith found a way out of it in the 70s. There are barely any open G-guitars from him on Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You. He sort of went back to basic rockabilly, Berry, rock'n'roll.

That said, Mick has his moments of sincerity, even today.

Evening Gown perhaps?

Fool To Cry at the London Stadium (1st night) was a 'shivers down your spine' moment, I thought.

If he really means to express himself with that accent, yeah, perhaps

«People say I'm a drinkerrrrr»

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His Majesty

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Swayed1967

Yeah but it was Mick’s ridiculously affected vocals, rather than his clothes, which ensured that the music would increasingly descend into self-parody.

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Swayed1967

Usually he’s too peacocky to come off sincere or convincing...

Fool To Cry is perhaps a better example of how Keith’s tasteful vocal style would’ve served the song better than Jagger’s cartoonish crooning.

Yup, yup and yup.

His vocals is one of the most distinctive things about the band, but what you say is so true, he is rarely all that convincing emotionally.

I LOVE No Expectations for example, but he doesn't nail the emotion of the song 100%. Keith would probably have sung it more authentically and brought out more emotional weight.

The affected vocals got more and more obvious and off putting, one of the things I dislike about the music from 70's onwards.

Interesting thoughts. For me Jagger's voice has been always an essential feature of a Rolling Stones sound, and one of its traits is that it has never been all that "convincing emotionally". That's just not Jagger's cup of tea, and I think a part of his unique charm. He is been a 'method' singer since the very fisrt day, actually more like an actor than artist as a singer and I can't even imagine what "authenticity" would mean for him. And I surely not need the latter if I a put a Rolling Stones recording on. Yeah, he has a distinct color in his voice, but its the way he uses it in different contexts, not technically any proper, makes the trick. Take, for example, the mentioned "Angie" - I don't hear there any authenticity or even sincere feeling, but a masterful act of expressing something unique, an intentional use of his own persona and projection of that, using his instrument - his voice - so masterfully with each nuance. He is so awere of the impact of his own voice. That actually makes it one of the most distingushed performances ever recorded in rock history. I don't know what is is - it just makes the difference - captures the listener.

Keith, by contrast, let his heart out sincerily with a full emotion, when he opens his mouth to sing. It's capturing as well, but only to a certain degree. For me it's been like a Monty Pythonian moment in a Rolling Stones music: in contrast to Jagger's definitive sound and unique way to interpret, something completely different. All those yougothesilvers, comingdownagains, allaboutyous, slippingaways do work in their context, to give variance and difference in albums, concerts, etc. but had that kind of 'sincerity' in delivery been a norm in Rolling Stones music I most likely would not write here. Nor many other people would either.

I think "Fool To Cry" and "Faraway Eyes" are great examples of the importance of Mick having a huge role in creating a distinctive Rolling Stones sound and impression. I don't think I would be any big fan of either of the songs, had they've interpreted in a 'normal' way, giving the impression of so called genuine feelings. It is Jagger making those ordinary-sounding, rather forgettable songs a dimension which sets the difference. Had Keith sang them? That's impossible for me to imagine, because I simply can't think the songs with their lyrical content fitting to his mouth. It would just sound dull and meaningless. Someone else, being a better singer as Keith, would do that much better (but still would sound as ordinary/non-Stonesy). The whole thing is so Jaggerian - him singing to his daughter and giving a sense of fragility (Jagger?!), him listening to a coloured radio station in Bakersfield and running through twenty red lights in honor of Lord (Jagger??!!!)... It could be that for Americans and the fans of country music Jagger's 'tongue-in-a-cheek' attitude (or always having some sort of wink in his eye even when making the impression of singing 'proper', like "Eveing Dawn" or "Bob Will's Still The King") is something not easily to digest, but for me, as an European and not any big fan of country music per se, I find his attitude absulutely a spot on. That's exactly the right attitude! I don't listen or care country music much at all, but I always enjoy Jagger and the Stones doing it.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-24 14:42 by Doxa.

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DandelionPowderman
Mick got trapped in his borderline camp-singing style, just like Keith did with the open G-stuff. By «trapped» I mean that people expect to hear more of it. Those sounds became «them».

But Keith found a way out of it in the 70s. There are barely any open G-guitars from him on Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You. He sort of went back to basic rockabilly, Berry, rock'n'roll.

That said, Mick has his moments of sincerity, even today.

I think that last song on GITD, like it or not, sounds like Mick being as sincere as Mick Jagger can be.