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Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: frtg55 ()
Date: June 3, 2014 04:31

Many people get bored with the warhorses.
Me,too! We already talked about it.

They are soo boring, because they want to play as similar as on the albums.
On the albums many of them are so much better than these used live-copies!

And that's the whole mess of it!

Goddamn! Change some arrangements, tempi, and styles a little bit of many of the warhorses. Then they should be interesting again! Like Dylan always did.

All these backround crap singing ain't neccesary!
And also Chucks Synth-Stuff could be fired into the basket, too.

Why not play Ruby Tuesday with a sax instead of that flute?
Why not change Miss you into a slow, heavy Blues-Burner?
...
More improvising would be great.
I always love these pure scenes, when they do rehearsals in many videos.
That's the real pure thing!

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: June 3, 2014 04:36

<<Many people get bored with the warhorses.>>

I get bored with the term "warhorses". This warhorses term is becoming a warhorse in itself, with IORR posters singing the same tired old tune again and again.

Change Warhorses term! Make point more interesting!

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Brstonesfan ()
Date: June 3, 2014 04:43

It all has to do with our familiarity with the songs. Again, at most shows, 99%in attendance are casual classic rock fans who want to hear the hits and this is how Mick and Keith have incredibly kept this cash register rolling along despite not having a #1 hit in US since 78.
My problem is not the war horses , but as you state how they are played. These songs are meant to be played fast with guitar driven riffs. Unfortunately, they can no longer keep that pace and the songs sound flat at times.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Thrylan ()
Date: June 3, 2014 04:54

One more time.......How many "casual fans" shell out 250-1000 effing dollars???

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Brstonesfan ()
Date: June 3, 2014 05:03

There is nothing casual about the prices, but people are willing to pay a premium to be at a Stones show because it is much more than a rock concert...it is a event that transcends generations.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: June 3, 2014 05:14

Quote
Brstonesfan
It all has to do with our familiarity with the songs. Again, at most shows, 99%in attendance are casual classic rock fans who want to hear the hits and this is how Mick and Keith have incredibly kept this cash register rolling along despite not having a #1 hit in US since 78.

I dont buy that argument that nearly everyone at a Stones show is a casual classic rock fan who are largely ignorant of the band's music. The Stones have sold over 200 million records. They're not some mediocre selling act who have to build a set around the only 3 or 4 big hits that they may have had. No act in the world is going to have an audience which almost exclusively consists of people who will pay a week or a months salary to attend their shows but who at the same time refuse to buy any of their recorded output beyond a greatest hits record. Its implausible.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with tailoring a stadium show with songs that for the most part pretty much everyone knows.

I'd personally prefer it not to be like that, but its not all about me - and totally understandable as most people in any audience arent die-hards to the extent that I am.

However, contrary to the assumption or many, there are more than 8 or 9 songs which fall into that category. The Stones have several other 'anthems' which could be added to the list of so-called 'warhorses' that currently get played every night. Little Red Rooster, Out of Time (a song they've never played - not even once - but which I guarantee you would have an entire stadium singing along), Ruby Tuesday, Beast of Burden, Wild Horses. Street Fighting Man etc.

By all means, play well-known songs at stadium sized shows. It helps with the pacing of a concert. Just rotate a few of them in and out of the set. Its a bit of minor tweaking that would keep it fresh for the band and the audience. And its not a big ask, as these songs have been rehearsed anyway because most of them get played occasionally.

Honestly, no one is going to walk out in disgust if a band that has dozens of well known songs in a 50 year career omits 'Start Me Up' once in every five shows and replaces it with 'Street Fighting Man' or 'Star***ker'. Its unreasonable for any audience member to expect to get every major hit that they know in a two-hour concert.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-03 05:16 by Gazza.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Thrylan ()
Date: June 3, 2014 05:36

Thank you Gazza......you are more patient and thoughtful than I.

In this vein, what could they play that NO ONE would know? Lotta deep cuts on soundtracks and such......

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Brstonesfan ()
Date: June 3, 2014 06:25

I agree Gazza.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Jimmer ()
Date: June 3, 2014 07:26

I agree 100% with you Gazza!

Main classics/ war horses they play (and have played) virtually every show for many many years now:

Satisfaction
Jumping Jack Flash
Sympathy for the Devil
Honky Tonk Women
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
It's Only Rock n' Roll
Miss You
Start Me Up

There are plenty of classics and other gems like Gazza said that could be rotated into the set on different nights while giving this list of 9 (and others they play frequently) some well needed rests. Some of these below, the band plays once in awhile (and some even a little more from time to time) but many are rarely if ever dusted off. I think it would keep the band fresh and energized too as well as the fans. Here is a sampling:

Route 66
Around and Around
Paint It Black
Flight 505
Ruby Tuesday
Out of Time
Street Fighting Man
Salt of the Earth
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Let It Bleed
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
Rocks Off
Loving Cup
Let it Loose
Shine a Light
Star Star
Dance Little Sister
Memory Motel
Some Girls
Worried About You (which they are doing on this tour stretch)
One Hit (To the Body)
Fancy Man Blues
Saint of Me
Out of Control
Tallahassee Lassie
Keep up Blues

And the list goes on and on... They clearly sell their incredible catalogue way too short. Having said that, I must say that I loved seeing them for the 40th time last year in Philly (# 2)! It was an amazing night and show! Would still have loved them to change it up more. But ultimately I was just very fortunate to get to see them again!

Right on, Gazza!

Jimmer

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: drbryant ()
Date: June 3, 2014 07:32

They added a local choir for YCAGWYW which is nice. It's difficult for them to swap out or vary the warhorses much because of the lighting, pyrotechnics and so forth that have been choreographed for each number. As one who attends multiple shows, I agree it would be nice to get some variety, but I don't see it happening.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: June 3, 2014 08:29

These kinds of discussions are getting to be warhorses. The act is tired. It's not going to change. Yes, it is for tourists, and those that just can't let the group go. Don't tell me your ears are hearing anything new or better than anything you've heard from them since the Licks Tour. They used to change things up a little bit but those days are long gone. For all they've given us they've earned this last romp around the globe to fleece the suckers.

I said my goodbyes to them in L.A. last year. This is what they want to do. This is how they want to go out. There probably won't be another album, and if there is, I'm sure I'll hate whoever they let pick up the bass. (Because I know it won't be Bill). Keith said they were going to wring the last wine from the grapes and now we're here. It's been a long, wonderful ride. I just hope there's some more goodies in the vaults from their first 30 years. They will always be my favorite band. I wish they'd gone out artistically, but hey, they are the people's group, and the people want the greatest hits. I hope the Stones do them for as long as they want to.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Date: June 3, 2014 08:55

They have changed YCAGWYW around with the choir. And Tim is indeed playing a soprano sax on Ruby Tuesday. GS is different now than in 89/90. SFTD has more guitars now than on earlier tours.

I'd say they changed around as much as they can.

On the BB tour they tries a dramatic change with a new 19th Nervous Breakdown version. Not a warhorse, but it was very different. Not better in any way, though. All imo, of course.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: jjsteve ()
Date: June 3, 2014 10:15

without bill wyman, they can't do it anymore. that was the engine, he was critical to the sound.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: frankotero ()
Date: June 3, 2014 11:02

Gazza- spot on as always. Having said that I did enjoy the Zurich gig regardless.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: chatoyancy ()
Date: June 3, 2014 11:20

Keith intentionally tries to change the warhorses by improvising, but old fans think he's just hitting the wrong notes!

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: ab ()
Date: June 3, 2014 11:28

Instead of warhorses, let's try the "Hot Rocks Jukebox" part of the show, even though some of the listed songs aren't part of that anthology. Anyway, yes, it could use some livening up. Let's see, you've got the core songs

Satisfaction
Jumpin' Jack Flash
Sympathy for the Devil
Gimmie Shelter
Honky Tonk Women
Brown Sugar
Tumbling Dice
It's Only Rock n' Roll
Miss You
Start Me Up
You Can't Always Get What You Want

Of these, Satisfaction, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Gimmie Shelter, Brown Sugar, Start Me Up, and YCAGWYW are absolute signature songs that need to be in the setlist every show. The rest could stand being rotated out at different shows, in the name of freshness. For example, replace Sympathy with Salt of the Earth or Can't You Hear Me Knocking, Honky Tonk Women with Let It Bleed or Street Fighting Man, Tumbling Dice with All Down the Line or Rocks Off, Miss You with Hot Stuff or Dance (in smaller arenas), and It's Only Rock 'n' Roll with Shine a Light or Starf-cker. That way, there's some variety for the diehards without going so deep into the catalog as to alienate the casual fans and +1s.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-03 11:32 by ab.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: June 3, 2014 11:28

Frtg55, you're right! It's not only the choice of songs it's how they are played. But I guess they aren't able to change anything now.
"The act is tired. It's not going to change. Yes, it is for tourists, and those that just can't let the group go!". Like many here I guess I fall into the latter category, 24FPS!

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: RoughJusticeOnYa ()
Date: June 3, 2014 18:15

"...Jumpin' Jack Flash, Brown Sugar and Start Me Up are always fun to play. You gotta be a real sourpuss, mate, not to get up there and play Jumpin' Jack Flash without feeling like, 'C'mon, everybody, let's GO!!' It's like riding a wild horse."
(Keith, 2002)

...wild horse, warhorse... the 'sourpuss' point goes for the fans too I reckon.

How anybody can consider any version of Jumpin' Jack Flash anytime anywhere "boooring", is beyond me - and that person is of NO interest to me.

...and remember: you don't HAVE to take that personal.

To each their own, I say.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: tklawson ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:31

Ah, the warhorses, or - as I sometimes call them - the Greatest Songs Ever Recorded.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Hound Dog ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:40

Quote
Brstonesfan
It all has to do with our familiarity with the songs. Again, at most shows, 99%in attendance are casual classic rock fans who want to hear the hits and this is how Mick and Keith have incredibly kept this cash register rolling along despite not having a #1 hit in US since 78.
My problem is not the war horses , but as you state how they are played. These songs are meant to be played fast with guitar driven riffs. Unfortunately, they can no longer keep that pace and the songs sound flat at times.

Are you trying to say that the Stones only have 8 hits that everyone knows? Because if you want to please the casual fan I am sure they know more than just start me up and so on. Under My Thumb is considered a rarity the way they hardly play it. Fans didn't seem to mind during the No Security tour when they shook up what hits they played.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: IrisC ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:47

Bring back Angie, Love is strong, Heartbreaker, Time is on my Side, 19th Nervous Breakdown, Out of Time, She's a Rainbow, to name a few.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Bastion ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:49

Maybe the setlist whiners should heed their own advice and change it up?

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Turning To Gold ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:54

"Tumbling Dice" has NEVER been right, ever since Keith STOPPED PLAYING the rhythm guitar part on the outro, and started soloing pointlessly over the end!!!!! The song completely falls apart without that open G, solid rhythm guitar backbone to it. Go back and listen to anY old live version of TD, pre-Vegas, '72, '75, '81/'82, where Keith is locked in with Charlie on that ending. Its hypnotic and mesmerizing and builds the song UP! Then listen to any modern version, any recent version, you'll hear him start wandering, playing clams, or stop playing completely and pose for the cameras, and the pulse and feel of the song is COMPLETELY lost. The best modern versions live, were with Blondie playing the lick in open G and Keith TURNED DOWN IN THE MIX.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: varilla ()
Date: June 3, 2014 19:59

Remember Mick´s version of Miss You in the WHITE HOUSE? it was F+*3 ..ing GREAT!!! that´s a good example of changing the mood of the song a bit with awsome results.
Check it out. I don´t know how to upload it here.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: PhillyFAN ()
Date: June 3, 2014 20:11

Repetition makes perfection. I would assume trying to remember the hundreds of songs they have written would be difficult at their ages. It would appear there is a method for the repetition of the same songs. No doubt they are easy to remember. IF it is the same songs at every concert, with maybe one different song thrown in each concert is enough for them.

I noticed that the "fans choice selection" now are also familiar songs they play at nearly every show. Keith once said in a interview that he does not always remember the songs, but his fingers do. At their ages I am really glad they can still tour and play. God knows being 70 is not always easy, not to mention the rehearsing, traveling, and performing. Keith manages this with probably with very painful arthritis. But, it seems like all folks can do is constantly be critical. I have been a Stone fan since 1969 and seeing them in Philadelphia when Mick Taylor was a official Rolling Stone and ripping it up. I am grateful for the memories and very happy that I got to see them perform in Philadelphia in 2013. At their ages this is the best we can expect. I do understand people have opinions about the music but this is what the Stones have to offer at this age. Which by the way in my opinion is absolutely fantastic and better that most bands half their age.

.

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: June 3, 2014 20:22

Come to think of it: With all those warhorses maybe the band should do just that - go to war. Sir Michael is a Commander now and could lead his cavalry into som charges wherever those are in need.
Didn't they have a song called Fight?

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: June 3, 2014 20:28

I mentioned this on another thread but drop the pre recorded intro to "Sympathy" and do it ala' YA YAs...let MT go nuts on the end jam...also drop the piano break and last chorus of "HTW"...it makes it too long and destroys the integrity of the perfect 3 mins of r n r that it is.....

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: stonesstein ()
Date: June 3, 2014 21:17

For those who seem to be tired of hearing the same old songs each night - remember, it is those songs that got the Stones where they are. While I have hoped, begged, and prayed for them to play I Just Wanna See His Face, Jigsaw Puzzle, Turd on the Run, and Citadel, it is songs like Start Me Up, Miss You, Angie, It's Only Rock and Roll, Tumbling Dice, and the holy quad of Satisfaction/JJF/HTW and Brown Sugar that most of the public knows.

It is almost as if we should petition the Stones to play a few "freak" shows for die hards where they play stuff like Soul Survivor or Everything's Turning to Gold. If the band advertised a "NO HITS PLAYED" theme for a couple shows, just how many people would buy tickets?

How many are on IORR, Shidoobee, and the other lists combined? OK, so do we think that there's 5,000 die hard freaks all over the world that would rather hear Heart of Stone or Hang Fire (both single-releases in the US) than Start Me Up or Angie? Maybe for a novelty reason.

However, the public hardly bought Heart of Stone (why sleeve is so rare) or Hang Fire, but Angie & SMU were worldwide #1s. The Stones of now are kinda like the Rutles - "We're only in it for the money." It costs SO much to put a whole tour or show together for them until they MUST shoot for the "middle" or "heart" of the ticket-buying folk which have likely heard SMU and Angie, but who wouldn't know Hey Negita or I JUst Wanna See His Face.

I commend the band for being as creative with setlists as they have been over the years, especially on the LICKS tour of 2002-2003 when they played so many different songs. I recall back in the days where there were no variants for show to show. Nowadays, with the virtual reality we call the internet, we get pissed off if someone does not post the next song in real time from the floor of a gig!

This is to take nothing away from those who wish to hear rare songs, but the question that we all ask is - do we want to hear rare songs, or do we want to hear the band play well? I have been there with "one-offs" (Don't Look Back at Aragon 2002), and frankly, go back a listen to that song and ask yourself, did that work out well? No, it really did not. And while I am sure that one guy here will say "Oh, THAT's my favorite!", reality says that we have this list, this band, and these discussions not because of Gomper or Through the LOnely Nights, but because of Miss You, SMU, and Angie.


Now, if they will only play 2000 Light Years just ONE more time!!!!!!


stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: scottkeef ()
Date: June 3, 2014 21:31

The Stones in my opinion are STILL at the point they could play ANYTHING they wanted and STILL sell just as many tkts...

Re: Change Warhorses! Make them more interesting!
Posted by: Limbostone ()
Date: June 3, 2014 22:41

Quote
PhillyFAN
Repetition makes perfection. I would assume trying to remember the hundreds of songs they have written would be difficult at their ages. It would appear there is a method for the repetition of the same songs. No doubt they are easy to remember. IF it is the same songs at every concert, with maybe one different song thrown in each concert is enough for them.

Well put. It's the repetition of their warhorses that makes them well played and smooth. The repetition is done by doing them every show, instead of rehearsing a lot... which gives them the confidence.

If you see them doing Silver Train or 2000LYFH, there is no confidence whatsoever. Mick likes to attibute this to the fact that the audience doesn't know the song and is awkwardly quiet and gazing during its performance. But how did they achieve confidence on YGMR then? No one knows that one. They achieved the confidence by its repetition. It's too easy to blame it on the superficial audience.

I would say the main reason these songs don't work is because they don't rehearse them properly, and then they don't give them the chance of being played a lot live (which would be the other way of achieving repetition). You know what would help? If Mick would stop looking over his shoulder to Chuck all the time. If the band displays discomfort, what should you expect from the audience? Even I feel uncomfortable when they try something rare.

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