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Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: June 4, 2014 16:30

Quote
pmk251
Who was it that said to Lennon?: Your songs are not about anything. I love you. You love me. You love him, etc. Lennon justifiably took that comment as an insult and a challenge and the fate of The Beatles was sealed. Lennon's songwriting would turn more and more inward until the band was no longer an inspiration or needed. His formula was at once simple and daunting. "Tell the truth, make it rhyme and give it a back beat." It was the tell the truth part that set him apart from other artists. John could write a crap song, but no one accused him of BSing his fans or himself. From the POB to Beautiful Boy to Watching The Wheels he was an artist of the highest order. He had the talent to give of himself. At his best he and his art were inseparable. It is a rough way to choose to go. It takes great courage.

At some point in the mid-'70's questions were asked of McCartney and the Stones: Is this it? Do you have anything else to give other than mere entertainment? Both artists' response was no. Paul set it out in Simple Love Songs and Jagger's was in IORR. The latter song especially was a clear declaration: Do not expect anything more from me. I do not have it. I think history has proven that statement correct. My problem with IORR is the song itself. It mocks artists with its economic power and vast popularity. It cheapens the genre of the music itself.

what's a poor boy to do 'cept to sing for a rock'n'roll band. I think the Stones have been consistent and just because they haven't lived to your 'ideals' doesn't mean they haven't lived up to their own.

It is only rock and roll...I'm not sure why we need to find any deeper meaning in it than that. There are lots of other ways to look for deeper meaning, we don't need to turn to the two guitarists, a bassist and drummer and the guy shouting and wildly gesticulating onstage. They're there to take my mind off of other things, and they do that well.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: RomanCandle ()
Date: June 4, 2014 17:38

Quote
buttons67
in my opinion "jumping jack flash", "brown sugar" and "paint it black" are the 3 most iconic rolling stones songs and should be or should have been played every gig possible.

i dont believe songs like "its only rock and roll", "tumbling dice" and "start me up" should be played every gig,

I couldn't agree more.
thumbs upthumbs upthumbs up

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll is the WORST LIVE STONES song ever!
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 4, 2014 19:48

Quote
24FPS
Don't really understand why this song got elevated to a warhorse. It's a minor song in the Stone's canon that signaled a pulling back after the glory years. It's almost as if the title is more important than the song. But they'll make you hear it at every show. And yet it's only the 2nd most obnoxious song on their calcified setlist, the winner being Sympathy For the Devil.

I agree. It was their first really underwhelming single. A rather silly, poppy faces thing but with mean Keith overdubs.

However, like Rambler, it takes on a whole new persona live. Like rambler, it is made to be played live.

I think it's one they can pull off well early in the set and it gets Keith loosened up and he can be relied on with it. So i think it has a place early in set and would far rather hear it than YGMR.

I agree about Symapthy being a far worse culprit as a WH.

Most war Horses 'do a job' and occasioanlly can be really knock-out - but I've not found that to be the case with Sympathy on any of the recent tours. It's as if they feel obliged to do it - but the guitars are virtually incidental - which is not the case with IORR and other WHs.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: john nicholls ()
Date: June 4, 2014 20:23

Could do without IORR.Does nothing for me livesad smiley


John Nicholls

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 4, 2014 23:50

Quote
pmk251
Who was it that said to Lennon?: Your songs are not about anything. I love you. You love me. You love him, etc. Lennon justifiably took that comment as an insult and a challenge and the fate of The Beatles was sealed. Lennon's songwriting would turn more and more inward until the band was no longer an inspiration or needed. His formula was at once simple and daunting. "Tell the truth, make it rhyme and give it a back beat." It was the tell the truth part that set him apart from other artists. John could write a crap song, but no one accused him of BSing his fans or himself. From the POB to Beautiful Boy to Watching The Wheels he was an artist of the highest order. He had the talent to give of himself. At his best he and his art were inseparable. It is a rough way to choose to go. It takes great courage.

At some point in the mid-'70's questions were asked of McCartney and the Stones: Is this it? Do you have anything else to give other than mere entertainment? Both artists' response was no. Paul set it out in Simple Love Songs and Jagger's was in IORR. The latter song especially was a clear declaration: Do not expect anything more from me. I do not have it. I think history has proven that statement correct. My problem with IORR is the song itself. It mocks artists with its economic power and vast popularity. It cheapens the genre of the music itself.

Pauls' song was Silly Love Songs - and what's wrong with that - I'd like to know?!

I think IORR was not a Mick song but a Ronnie song - that's the "problem",- the Faces' philosophy was not to offer anything but to have a real good time. 'Cheapening the genre'. Well glam was doing that too - and Mich was trying to tap into that market genre.

But LIVE it became a Keith song and thus could 'kick serious arse' and have real rock cred.

Did Mick still have anything to offer? Well, there's Time Waits For No-One. Better than anything Rod or Glam had to offer. Likewise Fingy File.

But it was punk that made Paul and Mick much less socially relevant - because it wasn't ONLY anything. It really WAS something and totally changed the Stones' approach AND Keith's playing style - he had to adapt and develop beyond Berry riffing and open riffing.

Not really sure that punk affected Paul - though Lennon said that Coming Up made him take notice of Paul again and challenged him to get working again.

By the 80s Mick and Paul had as much to offer as anyone else really!

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 00:01

Keith had that playing style down by 74/75 already. Probably developed a lot during the sessions/the stay at The Wick. On SG he plays all kinds of stuff: Country on FE, Mayfield-soul on BOB, Berry on Respectable, blues on SG, open G on BTMMR etc.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 5, 2014 00:29

Excuse me but .....

his style on Respecatable, Whip and Shattered are all a great departure from anything on IORR and B&B.

He did not have a very strong guitar presence on IGMOATD - a bit more on Now Look - but those were Ronnie's babies.

His playing on Imagination is something new in a way. Even the SG track - sharper, more aggressive.

And I will leave it at that for the benefit of punk for Keith..... and return to subject of this thread to say ..... that the best and only redeeming feature of the studio IORR is Keith's lead - especially the solo.
But even that can't redeem the basic Faces knock-about character of the song.

What made the early live versions so good was not especially Keith - it was Bill - the thing motored along with looping swing.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 00:53

Well, I disagree on all points. Not bad smiling smiley

I agree on Bill excelling the songs, not bringing them up from sub par live.

If you listen closely to the First Barbarians-album/dvd, you'll find that Keith is all over IGMOATD as well.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: rob51 ()
Date: June 5, 2014 00:57

Love the studio guitar sound on this one. Kind of like Honky Tonk though they've never come close to replicating that sound live so each other version pales by comparison. Quess it's next to impossible to find that sound live.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 01:03

Quote
rob51
Love the studio guitar sound on this one. Kind of like Honky Tonk though they've never come close to replicating that sound live so each other version pales by comparison. Quess it's next to impossible to find that sound live.

For the HTW sound check out HP 69...

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: hockenheim95 ()
Date: June 5, 2014 01:09

It would satisfy me to hear Mick singing "would it satisfy ya, would it sly on by ya, would you think the boy is strang..." part again..

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 01:11

Slide on by you, no?

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: June 5, 2014 01:16

....never topped the classic studio version ... man that record was a cut & paste job before the term was even invented



ROCKMAN

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 5, 2014 02:03

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, I disagree on all points. Not bad smiling smiley

I agree on Bill excelling the songs, not bringing them up from sub par live.

If you listen closely to the First Barbarians-album/dvd, you'll find that Keith is all over IGMOATD as well.

You mean the Kilburn shows, which were by no means Barbaric in name or nature.
Yes he played live guitar there - on all tracks - unlike on the album.
Now I WILL leave it there and we can return to navel picking on another thread at some future date.
Good to have something to look forward to after the tour is over!

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Thrylan ()
Date: June 5, 2014 02:10

Here it is.....The studio version is dark, dirty, even sexual- lots of blank canvas so to speak. Different tempos, some really cool studio craft.

Live it has basically become "Let It Rock" in sound, style and most importantly, in mood; It's bright and happy, and that is what is wrong in my opinion.

Lastly, as a guitarist, I found that fleshing out all the subtle nuances and layers of the studio version to be infinitely more difficult than any live version of it...... They should at least go back to the LYL style.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 11:09

Quote
Deluxtone
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Well, I disagree on all points. Not bad smiling smiley

I agree on Bill excelling the songs, not bringing them up from sub par live.

If you listen closely to the First Barbarians-album/dvd, you'll find that Keith is all over IGMOATD as well.

You mean the Kilburn shows, which were by no means Barbaric in name or nature.
Yes he played live guitar there - on all tracks - unlike on the album.
Now I WILL leave it there and we can return to navel picking on another thread at some future date.
Good to have something to look forward to after the tour is over!

It's not unlike the album, as we regognise the parts he did on the studio album as well clearer when listening to the live album (It is indeed titled: "The First Barbarians: Live From Kilburn").



Keith is more than audible with a few guitars here:















Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-05 12:00 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 5, 2014 21:28

I am fully aware of articles in question.

The message was - Not Here and Now but Later. Repeat this slowly and clearly to yourself.

Patience Please - an Uncluttered IORR thread Comes First.

So back on topic for the benefit of IORR customs officials .......

The other great thing about early live versions - as exemplified by that on LYL - is not only Bill but also Charlie.

After Mick's rather careless, drawled verbal intro ther soon comes Charlie's crack on the snare (I assume) - which means business - kicking the thing into gear. With Richards, Wyman and Watts in capable command it suddenly becomes Stones song - which it patently isn't on record. Kenny Jones - On Yer Bike.

Jagger on the LYL version wasn't that great - and Wood is fairly unremarkable - (ok, he's 'doing a job') but the Real Life that song has there is down to the Rhythmic heart of the band - beating hard and fast with a rolling swing.
Like it, like it yes we do.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: June 5, 2014 21:35

Quote
Deluxtone
Jagger on the LYL version wasn't that great

Isn't that crazy considering he overdubbed bad vocals in place of bad vocals that were live!!??

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 21:39

'The message was - Not Here and Now but Later. Repeat this slowly and clearly to yourself'

A little arrogant today? Er, more like every day, seemingly...

You can chew on this: IORR is great - the studio version AND the live versions. The former because of Mick and Keith (thank you for writing it, Ronnie!). The live versions mainly because of Keith. The exception is the LYL version, where Mick sings in a (for him) better key (G), and undoubtedly delivers more powerful vocals (like his style or not).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-05 21:41 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 5, 2014 21:58

Quote
DandelionPowderman
'The message was - Not Here and Now but Later. Repeat this slowly and clearly to yourself'

A little arrogant today? Er, more like every day, seemingly...

You can chew on this: IORR is great - the studio version AND the live versions. The former because of Mick and Keith (thank you for writing it, Ronnie!). The live versions mainly because of Keith. The exception is the LYL version, where Mick sings in a (for him) better key (G), and undoubtedly delivers more powerful vocals (like his style or not).

My Dear boy,

I believe that had you been a young and wide-eyed kid in the late sixties and early seventies and had experienced/lived these singles in lamost successive years - JJF, HTW, BS, TD, Angie ....... and then a relatively banal singalong ditty pandering to poppy glam of the time ... then you'd understand where I am and was - along with many others - coming from ......

So that's why there was not a lot to sing and dance about when it was released - nor did it do very well.

As you will no doubt be aware, the studio version has K Jones and Willie Weeks on it. And this was a new 'Stones' single?

'not such hot potatoes' as Nick Kent remarked when reviewing the album.

Live it took on a new dimension - as N Kent also acknowledged in his review of LYL.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 5, 2014 22:54

Quote
Deluxtone
Quote
DandelionPowderman
'The message was - Not Here and Now but Later. Repeat this slowly and clearly to yourself'

A little arrogant today? Er, more like every day, seemingly...

You can chew on this: IORR is great - the studio version AND the live versions. The former because of Mick and Keith (thank you for writing it, Ronnie!). The live versions mainly because of Keith. The exception is the LYL version, where Mick sings in a (for him) better key (G), and undoubtedly delivers more powerful vocals (like his style or not).

My Dear boy,

I believe that had you been a young and wide-eyed kid in the late sixties and early seventies and had experienced/lived these singles in lamost successive years - JJF, HTW, BS, TD, Angie ....... and then a relatively banal singalong ditty pandering to poppy glam of the time ... then you'd understand where I am and was - along with many others - coming from ......

So that's why there was not a lot to sing and dance about when it was released - nor did it do very well.

As you will no doubt be aware, the studio version has K Jones and Willie Weeks on it. And this was a new 'Stones' single?

'not such hot potatoes' as Nick Kent remarked when reviewing the album.

Live it took on a new dimension - as N Kent also acknowledged in his review of LYL.

I hear you, pa!

SAL and Heaven can't be good songs either with that logic.

Nick Kent, the voice of reason. Mr Profound himself. I bet Ronnie still hurts after Keith's right hook in 1982, right?

I forgot that you know more about music than me, and that your taste is superior because you're old...

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: June 5, 2014 23:39

Quote
Rockman
....never topped the classic studio version ... man that record was a cut & paste job before the term was even invented

+ 1

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: June 6, 2014 00:37

Love this song.

To start, it is a great rnr composition.

The studio version is a killer. Keith's overdubbed guitar parts are just amazing. That fat groove on the low E (would love to know how they got that sound - tight, big, with edge but distorted, compressed but alive - guitar? amp? Fx?) and by contrast the bright, sharp, sparse super cool riffing higher up on the neck. As all this is not enough, as some one noted above, the solo is absolutely stellar. Probably Keith's best CB style solo. Last but not least, a key element of the studio version is Ronnie's original acoustic part. It's so important that it remained untouched even if here and there the tempo wobbles a little.

Jagger and whoever sang the bu vocals were able to enhance the darkness of the song, and the great @#$%& you attitude of the chorus.

Weeks & Jones do a great job too (no surprise)

I agree that the 70s live version was also superb. They completely reinvented the song. The way jagger and the band play withh the beat is almost impossible to replicate.

Something happened in 89. God knows why they went back to the studio steady groove idea, but never were able to recreate the correct balance. The same that happened with Devil.

C

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Deluxtone ()
Date: June 6, 2014 00:51

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Deluxtone
Quote
DandelionPowderman
'The message was - Not Here and Now but Later. Repeat this slowly and clearly to yourself'

A little arrogant today? Er, more like every day, seemingly...

You can chew on this: IORR is great - the studio version AND the live versions. The former because of Mick and Keith (thank you for writing it, Ronnie!). The live versions mainly because of Keith. The exception is the LYL version, where Mick sings in a (for him) better key (G), and undoubtedly delivers more powerful vocals (like his style or not).

My Dear boy,

I believe that had you been a young and wide-eyed kid in the late sixties and early seventies and had experienced/lived these singles in lamost successive years - JJF, HTW, BS, TD, Angie ....... and then a relatively banal singalong ditty pandering to poppy glam of the time ... then you'd understand where I am and was - along with many others - coming from ......

So that's why there was not a lot to sing and dance about when it was released - nor did it do very well.

As you will no doubt be aware, the studio version has K Jones and Willie Weeks on it. And this was a new 'Stones' single?

'not such hot potatoes' as Nick Kent remarked when reviewing the album.

Live it took on a new dimension - as N Kent also acknowledged in his review of LYL.

I hear you, pa!

SAL and Heaven can't be good songs either with that logic.

Nick Kent, the voice of reason. Mr Profound himself. I bet Ronnie still hurts after Keith's right hook in 1982, right?

I forgot that you know more about music than me, and that your taste is superior because you're old...

'Reason'? 'Logic'?

This is fanship.

I mention Nick Kent because he was, in the press and on a personal level, about their biggest fan, as was I and many others.

As pmk21 (or similar) said above - this was their first single where they are following a fad - trend-following and not trend moulding.

It's the first single where Keith has virtually a cameo role in 'his' band and where non-Stones play bass and drums. I don't think i knew this at the time of its release - and with that foam-tent video on Top Of The Pops. (That would give the impression that this was a band single). I felt and sensed, like Nick Kent and many others that this was sub-par Stones.

Nothing to do with 'logic' or 'reason'. There was a cohesive Stones chemistry missing. Many reasons for that. For discussion on another thread I suggest.

I posit that after 10 years of phenominal grounbreaking progress the band reached a period far less definite shared focus and direction.

Your last sentence regarding 'taste'. 'knowledge' and 'age'.

Have you heard about pots and kettles and their blackening process?

Age? Not yet Stone Age .... but Older and Gooder, DP, Older and Gooder!

Vintage and Deluxe, my Dear boy, Vintage and Deluxe.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 6, 2014 00:58

Dancing With Mr D was poorer than IORR, imo.

Shine A Light features the two Micks only, but it's still a great Stones song.

Nick Kent was a drugged out, and very inaccurate, fan reporter.

They were trend-followers in 1967 as well.

What do you mean by cameo for Keith? He owns this song, together with Mick.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: June 6, 2014 01:12

It is a rather bland song. There's nothing exceptional or good about it. It's simply average, pedestrian even. Sure it has a nice groove but that's not the main deal. It's the title sung over and over that made it such a pervasive FM Classic Rock Radio staple.

Funny how Keith has always shut Ronnie up about talking about how it was recorded. The first thievery by Jagger-Richards of something Ronnie wrote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 01:12 by GasLightStreet.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 6, 2014 01:20

Quote
GasLightStreet
It is a rather bland song. There's nothing exceptional or good about it. It's simply average, pedestrian even. Sure it has a nice groove but that's not the main deal. It's the title sung over and over that made it such a pervasive FM Classic Rock Radio staple.

Funny how Keith has always shut Ronnie up about talking about how it was recorded. The first thievery by Jagger-Richards of something Ronnie wrote.

More like a trade, according to the legend...

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: June 6, 2014 01:37

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
GasLightStreet

Funny how Keith has always shut Ronnie up about talking about how it was recorded. The first thievery by Jagger-Richards of something Ronnie wrote.

More like a trade, according to the legend...

Well, "I Can Feel The Fire" is a great song, but you know, having traded the leading single and the title song of the next Stones album for it, is not the most perfect deal...grinning smiley But probably, not just finding himself proud to contribute to the sequence of classical hit songs like "Flash", "Honky Tonk", "Brown Sugar", "Dice", Angie"... Ronnie might also seen there some other great long-term business moves as well...grinning smiley

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-06-06 01:39 by Doxa.

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Date: June 6, 2014 08:59

I agree, Doxa. A promise of the first place in line, maybe? smiling smiley

Re: Its Only Rock N Roll - the song
Posted by: Wild Slivovitz ()
Date: June 6, 2014 13:57

Live is a very good song and it's fun to watch Keith playing it (even if in some concerts last year it was painful!!).

However, I wouldn't complain if they played "Hand Of fate" or "If You Can't Rock Me" instead!!

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