Instead of continuing to discuss how terrible his current performances are, I decided to revisit Chuck Berry's albums OUTSIDE of the greatest-hits collections. His last original album was in 1979 with Rock It which features a terrible drum sound and poorly produced tones overall. Wish so much it was recorded at somewhere like Muscle Shoals! (BTW, CBII, if you can let me borrow the original multi-tracks I can make this album SLAM. No charge for the bossman.) Imagine this with the sound of Stinky Fingers...





Why did Chuck Berry stop recording original material?

You're right, Drake, the production is really lame here. And what's more, he stole the cover art from Boston's first album!

Drew

When I first saw the thread, I thought, Oh Great, another negative CB thread. I stand corrected and offer Drake my apologies for the first though and thanks for posting the link of a CB song I'm not familiar with. I'll go so far as to add that, if CBII is willing to realease the original tracks to Drake for remastering, I'll pay for the postage. Seriously. In my mind, the world can't have enough good sounding Chuck Berry recordings. At least my world can't.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Chuck's hardcore fans might disagree but imo his creativity took a dive down in the mid-60's.
Much like our boys he had a fantastic decade of songwriting (1955-1965) but after that the well dried so to speak.

And (I speculate here) it probably puzzled Mr Berry to see that a very mediocre song ("My Ding-A-Ling" ) gave him his biggest commercial success.
After that, why bother and try to write sth as classy as "Wee Wee Hours"?

I like 1969's ""Concerto In B. Goode" though. I like Chuck going prog!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-19 00:17 by dcba.

What are his last 'great' album?
'St. Louis To Liverpool'?

Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Oh you poor fellow, you´ve been reading too many of Keith Richards` tell a tale fabrications.

Johnny Johnson wrote all those great songs, right?

In that case, Richard M. Nixon wrote Star Spangled Banner, The wind cries Mary, Purple Haze, I can´t get no satisfaction and Like a rolling stone.

<<Johnny Johnson wrote all those great songs, right?>>

Try actually reading my post next time before responding. I said that Chuck wrote the lyrics, Johnnie wrote the music. Why else would the music be written in piano keys when Chuck doesn't play piano?

Edit: And here is just one example. The song Wee Wee Hours was the B-side of CB's first single Maybellene. Chuck is credited as the writer, because he wrote the lyrics--but he didn't compose the music. The music for the song was something Johnnie Johnson came up with and had been performing for years as an instrumental.

Rather than think of Johnnie Johnson as the "writer" of the songs, which he wasn't because Chuck was, one should think of JJ as the arranger of Chuck's songs, which he was (or "right hand man" if you like). And it's more than a coincidence that after firing his master arranger, the songs that CB subsequently wrote did not become hits, no matter how good the albums may have been.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-19 01:53 by stonehearted.

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Chuck Berry improvises verses today better than most people will ever write them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-19 01:41 by joshbg2k.

Bio and San Francisco Dues, both from the early 70s, are very good albums.

[www.youtube.com]


[www.youtube.com]

I suggest the 'Back Home' LP from 1970 with Lafayette Leake - Piano &
Phil Upchurch - Bass

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stonehearted
<<Johnny Johnson wrote all those great songs, right?>>

Try actually reading my post next time before responding. I said that Chuck wrote the lyrics, Johnnie wrote the music. Why else would the music be written in piano keys when Chuck doesn't play piano?

Edit: And here is just one example. The song Wee Wee Hours was the B-side of CB's first single Maybellene. Chuck is credited as the writer, because he wrote the lyrics--but he didn't compose the music. The music for the song was something Johnnie Johnson came up with and had been performing for years as an instrumental.

Rather than think of Johnnie Johnson as the "writer" of the songs, which he wasn't because Chuck was, one should think of JJ as the arranger of Chuck's songs, which he was (or "right hand man" if you like). And it's more than a coincidence that after firing his master arranger, the songs that CB subsequently wrote did not become hits, no matter how good the albums may have been.

I have no idea if what you're saying is true, but it does sound logical.

<<I have no idea if what you're saying is true>>

Would I lie? Even if I'm just being... logical, captain?....

It's true, I swear--Spock's honor.

What Stonehearted mentioned about Johnnie and the piano keys is all in Hail Hail Rock N Roll. Definitely true to many degrees. I always found it interesting that Chuck had a massive creative period and then 30+ years no new material.

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stonehearted
<<I have no idea if what you're saying is true>>

Would I lie? Even if I'm just being... logical, captain?....

It's true, I swear--Spock's honor.

live long and prosper my friend.

Ya gotta figure....Chuck's forte was always 3 chord boogie tunes. His best work had some pretty damn clever lyrics. But after awhile, how many variations can one do on such a simple template? If he strayed much from the I-IV-V patterns, he'd be accused of not sounding like Chuck Berry anymore and he knows it. I think at some point he knew he'd done his best work so why try to top it knowing it would be compared negatively to his past work? Just my humble theory....

I think JJ should have been credited as co-writer.

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dcba
Chuck's hardcore fans might disagree but imo his creativity took a dive down in the mid-60's.
Much like our boys he had a fantastic decade of songwriting (1955-1965) but after that the well dried so to speak.

And there's nothing to be ashamed of in not being able to sustain world-class creative output. Marcel Duchamp said in an interview late in his life that one reason he had not been more more prolific is that he did not like repeating himself, and most artists only have one or two basic ideas, three or four if they are truly brilliant, that they ring the changes on throughout their careers.

Chuck's lyrics really need to be put in a book form, like Dylan did.

^ I doubt that Chuck would want to consider doing it--no money in books.

If Johnny isn't the answer than what is Kristan? Obviously somehow Chucks well ran dry and the Johnny Johnson story is as good an explanation as we've ever gotten. Chuck was/is a greedy fella that much I gleaned from Hail Hail without any help from K.Richards. And if there was a buck to be made he certainly wouldn't have stopped writing. What made him quit than? Maybe because he only really had one or two styles to work with and he'd already worked them to death.

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tomk
Chuck's lyrics really need to be put in a book form, like Dylan did.

There's a lyrical beauty to his memoir, one of the most elegantly written books I've ever read. He is one of America's greatest poets.

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DeanGoodman

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tomk
Chuck's lyrics really need to be put in a book form, like Dylan did.

There's a lyrical beauty to his memoir, one of the most elegantly written books I've ever read. He is one of America's greatest poets.

A-MEN!

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

CBII

lets be honest, chuck was awesome....but lets be honest he wrote maybe 3 riffs and everything else was a take off on that....any yes everything was in piano keys, lol. Johnny johnson.....

chuck will always be remember as one of the greatest rockers ever, but also one of the biggest slim balls ever.

dont get me wrong, i still get chills whenever i hear his riffs. just giving me opinion

.....keep on rolling.....

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CBII

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

Nothing written but spoken, by Keith for the Hail! Hail! movie (from 40:00).







Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-20 06:05 by stonehearted.

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CBII

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

Absolutely. T-Bone Walker, Louis Jordan, etc. And I'm sure Johnnie cites plenty of influences in his book. There is some scholarly dissection of Chuck's riffs on the stevehoffman.tv forum here, with some great Youtube clips: [forums.stevehoffman.tv]

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stonehearted

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CBII

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

Nothing written but spoken, by Keith for the Hail! Hail! movie (from 40:00).

I was referring to what was being stated here on IORR.ORG. Since I was there during pre-production, rehearsals, concerts and post production of Hail! Hail! Rock N Roll I'm fully aware what was said by Keith. Just because someone comes to a conclusion based on their opinion does not make it fact. Many people have run with Keith's opinion for over 27 years without doing much of any research to prove or disclaim it.

CBII

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DeanGoodman

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CBII

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stonehearted
Chuck Berry wrote lyrics, or in his words "verses". He may well still do so, as he is known to improvise new "verses" over existing bridges of music. It was Johnnie Johnson who wrote the music. In the Hail! Hail! movie, Johnson provides an excellent example of their method of collaboration for Havana Moon.

That's why after parting ways with Johnson, the hits stopped coming for Berry, no matter how many new albums of original material he recorded in subsequent years. Another clue that Johnson wrote the music lies in the fact that the music for those early hits are in piano keys, which is why when it was later covered by other musicians in more basic rock chords it always sounded different to the originals.

Still interesting to read the who wrote what speculation. Piano Keys? Those are also Horn Keys used by Big Bands. Let's not forget music historians, my dad played the Saxophone, grew up during the Big Band Era and has hands as big as baseball gloves. Pretty much opens up a persons ability to play in any key they wish.

Absolutely. T-Bone Walker, Louis Jordan, etc. And I'm sure Johnnie cites plenty of influences in his book. There is some scholarly dissection of Chuck's riffs on the stevehoffman.tv forum here, with some great Youtube clips: [forums.stevehoffman.tv]

Pretty much bolsters what I've said in this thread and in the past. I'd never seen Steve Hoffman's forum before but the contributors ran the gambit.

From Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Carl Hogan and playing in big band keys. All these things have been openly and proudly admitted influences. Keith Richard used the Riffs, Licks and styling of the people that he grew up listening to and has stated as such. Sounds very similar if you ask me.

"What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun."

CBII

<<Just because someone comes to a conclusion based on their opinion does not make it fact. Many people have run with Keith's opinion for over 27 years without doing much of any research to prove or disclaim it.>>

Not just Keith, but Johnnie Johnson himself, who states that he was in the room with CB helping to write the music. Fact: CB couldn't have done it without JJ. Why is that so hard to accept?