I don't know if the Stones were a better pop band than the Kinks in the mid-60s...

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I don't know if the Stones were a better pop band than the Kinks in the mid-60s...

Well, the Stones had bigger hits at least.

How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

Quote
24FPS
The Stones never did, and never will, have the overall impact of the Beatles. Someone who lived through that period knows exactly what I mean.

Believe it or not, I agree. It's got nothing to do with music, or who's a better band, or who had more hits. The Beatles were simply a cultural phenomenon that happened once and was almost unbelievable in the way it changed our whole outlook on the world, and which has never happened again. (One very small example--for a while there were regular segments on the national news, like the sports and weather segments, telling us what the Beatles had done that day.) Obviously I prefer the Stones' music, and as a teenager I was into the whole "rebel" thing they had going, but although they had a major cultural impact themselves, it was nothing remotely comparable to the seismic shift that the Beatles represented.

>> but although they had a major cultural impact themselves, it was nothing remotely comparable to the seismic shift that the Beatles represented.

and thank God for that! I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy..

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

Per Billboard:

Time Is On My Side - Number 6
Last Time - Number 9
As Tears Go By - Number 6
19th Nervous Breakdown - Number 2
Paint It Black - Number 1
Lady Jane - 24
Mother's Little Helper - 8
HYSYMBSITS? - 9
LSTNT - 55
Ruby Tuesday - 1
We Love You - 50
Dandelion - 14
She's A Rainbow - 25
Jumping Jack Flash - 3
SFM - 48
Honky Tonk Women - 1

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I don't know if the Stones were a better pop band than the Kinks in the mid-60s...

The Stones were never very good at pop. I know that some people love Between the Buttons, but I have a hard time liking it because to me, at least, they sound out of their element. Their early stuff, and their post-Satanic Majesties period is where they are at their peak.

The Beatles were changing the world in the 60's, but from Sgt. Pepper on, there's painfully little rock and roll on their albums. Magical Mystery Tour is an amazing album - virtually every track is well known. The problem for me is that it doesn't rock at all, and I rarely feel the urge to listen to it. Instead, I pull out Beggars and listen to SFM (straight rock) Prodigal Son (an old blues number) and Stray Cat Blues (a new blues number) and think "damn, this is the best rock and roll band the world has ever seen.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-12 05:35 by drbryant.

Quote
nightskyman

Quote
stonehearted
Not only that, they also sounded radically different. Even when I started buying the Capitol Beatles albums in the early 80s, this is what She's A Woman (from Beatles '65) sounded like on the radio and on turntables in the U.S.

Does it sound better in your opinion? I've always be intrigued myself about variations here and there on the U.S. releases.

In many cases no, just that these versions were my introduction to the music as well as for many years after, because the Capitol records were all that were available and only in stereo.

I would say now though that the 2009 mono UK remasters are vastly superior to anything made publicly available before, though I still find that original Capitol reverb mix of She's A Woman especially appealing over even the 2009 remaster, just because it lent an atmosphere all its own as well as hugeness to the track even though it wasn't the way it really sounded.

Quote
stonehearted

Quote
nightskyman

Quote
stonehearted
Not only that, they also sounded radically different. Even when I started buying the Capitol Beatles albums in the early 80s, this is what She's A Woman (from Beatles '65) sounded like on the radio and on turntables in the U.S.

Does it sound better in your opinion? I've always be intrigued myself about variations here and there on the U.S. releases.

In many cases no, just that these versions were my introduction to the music as well as for many years after, because the Capitol records were all that were available and only in stereo.

I would say now though that the 2009 mono UK remasters are vastly superior to anything made publicly available before, though I still find that original Capitol reverb mix of She's A Woman especially appealing over even the 2009 remaster, just because it lent an atmosphere all its own as well as hugeness to the track even though it wasn't the way it really sounded.

Beatles '65 in its original US mix has a number of tracks just awash in echo. To me they sound like a bloody mess, but they sound great. I agree with you that it has always been hard for me to get used to the "true" version of She's a Woman, after years of listening to the guitar sound on the US release. Same is true for I Feel Fine, Honey Don't, and Everybody's Trying to be My Baby.

Quote
spsimmons
I love the Stones, but they did not have the same cultural impact as the Beatles. No way will The Stones' first appearance on Ed Sullivan get any kind of mention on it's 50th anniversary.

I wonder if there is a way to find out how many people watched the Stones first appearance on Ed Sullivan?

The Stones were one of the greatest pop bands of all time. It's that pop era that make them more than just another rock and roll band. Paint It Black, Ruby Tuesday, She's A Rainbow, are masterpieces and are what pulls them close to the Beatles. In the 70s they showed those powers again with Miss You, a pop-rock-disco number 1 record.

Quote
24FPS

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

Per Billboard:

Time Is On My Side - Number 6 = Soul
Last Time - Number 9 = Rock
As Tears Go By - Number 6 = Rockballad
19th Nervous Breakdown - Number 2 = Psychedelia
Paint It Black - Number 1 = Worldmusic
Lady Jane - 24 = Chambermusic
Mother's Little Helper - 8 = Psychedelia
HYSYMBSITS? - 9 = Rock
LSTNT - 55 = Pure Rock
Ruby Tuesday - 1 = Rock Ballad
We Love You - 50 = Psychedelia
Dandelion - 14 = Psychedelia
She's A Rainbow - 25 = Psychedelia
Jumping Jack Flash - 3 = Pure Rock'n'Roll
SFM - 48 = Pure rock
Honky Tonk Women - 1

= Pure RiffRock

Look, No Popmusic in the list...

2 1 2 0

Quote
24FPS

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

Per Billboard:

Time Is On My Side - Number 6
Last Time - Number 9
As Tears Go By - Number 6
19th Nervous Breakdown - Number 2
Paint It Black - Number 1
Lady Jane - 24
Mother's Little Helper - 8
HYSYMBSITS? - 9
LSTNT - 55
Ruby Tuesday - 1
We Love You - 50
Dandelion - 14
She's A Rainbow - 25
Jumping Jack Flash - 3
SFM - 48
Honky Tonk Women - 1

Thanks, that was my point exactly. Only PIB and RT topped the charts. 19thNB #2.

HTW and JJF aren't pop songs.

Quote
drbryant

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I don't know if the Stones were a better pop band than the Kinks in the mid-60s...

The Stones were never very good at pop. I know that some people love Between the Buttons, but I have a hard time liking it because to me, at least, they sound out of their element. Their early stuff, and their post-Satanic Majesties period is where they are at their peak.

The Beatles were changing the world in the 60's, but from Sgt. Pepper on, there's painfully little rock and roll on their albums. Magical Mystery Tour is an amazing album - virtually every track is well known. The problem for me is that it doesn't rock at all, and I rarely feel the urge to listen to it. Instead, I pull out Beggars and listen to SFM (straight rock) Prodigal Son (an old blues number) and Stray Cat Blues (a new blues number) and think "damn, this is the best rock and roll band the world has ever seen.

They were good on Aftermath. Buttons was more of an experimental album, leaning toward freakiness and psychedelia.

Songs like UMT, LJ, PIB + RT and BG are all on par with the Beatles' pop songs, imo.

Quote
Come On

Quote
24FPS

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

Per Billboard:

Time Is On My Side - Number 6 = Soul
Last Time - Number 9 = Rock
As Tears Go By - Number 6 = Rockballad
19th Nervous Breakdown - Number 2 = Psychedelia
Paint It Black - Number 1 = Worldmusic
Lady Jane - 24 = Chambermusic
Mother's Little Helper - 8 = Psychedelia
HYSYMBSITS? - 9 = Rock
LSTNT - 55 = Pure Rock
Ruby Tuesday - 1 = Rock Ballad
We Love You - 50 = Psychedelia
Dandelion - 14 = Psychedelia
She's A Rainbow - 25 = Psychedelia
Jumping Jack Flash - 3 = Pure Rock'n'Roll
SFM - 48 = Pure rock
Honky Tonk Women - 1

= Pure RiffRock

Look, No Popmusic in the list...

What the hell? Since when is Lady Jane, Ruby Tuesday, She's A Rainbow, Dandelion, not pop music? There certainly aren't rock and roll. And an argument can be made the Paint It Black is very pop. And gosh, As Tears Go By just rocks.

I wonder if the term 'rock ballad' or 'worldmusic' existed on the 60s.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

The key fact here is that in their own country they had a row of 7 consecutive no. 1's. Every single from It's All Over Now to Paint It,Black was a no.1. Later the JJF-HTW-BS trilogy were also no. 1's.This put the Stones in a completely different league than all their competitors, except the Beatles of course, who probably had close to 15 consecutive no. 1's. The Kinks had a total of 3 no.1's, but they were separated by years (You really got me,Sunny Afternoon, Lola). The Who never had a no.1!

Quote
walkingthedog

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

The key fact here is that in their own country they had a row of 7 consecutive no. 1's. Every single from It's All Over Now to Paint It,Black was a no.1. Later the JJF-HTW-BS trilogy were also no. 1's.This put the Stones in a completely different league than all their competitors, except the Beatles of course, who probably had close to 15 consecutive no. 1's. The Kinks had a total of 3 no.1's, but they were separated by years (You really got me,Sunny Afternoon, Lola). The Who never had a no.1!

That's true, but my point was that when they turned into a more pop-oriented act in 66/67, the number one hits didn't come as easily anymore.

Hence, were they really as successful as a "pop group" as, say, the Kinks? I don't think so.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
walkingthedog

Quote
DandelionPowderman
How big were the Stones pop hits in the 60s?

I'm not talking about Satisfaction and GOOMC.

The key fact here is that in their own country they had a row of 7 consecutive no. 1's. Every single from It's All Over Now to Paint It,Black was a no.1. Later the JJF-HTW-BS trilogy were also no. 1's.This put the Stones in a completely different league than all their competitors, except the Beatles of course, who probably had close to 15 consecutive no. 1's. The Kinks had a total of 3 no.1's, but they were separated by years (You really got me,Sunny Afternoon, Lola). The Who never had a no.1!

That's true, but my point was that when they turned into a more pop-oriented act in 66/67, the number one hits didn't come as easily anymore.

Hence, were they really as successful as a "pop group" as, say, the Kinks? I don't think so.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "successful" and "pop group". Is We Love You more "pop" than Get Off Of My Cloud ? And if successful is measured only in terms of record sales, then clearly the Stones were more sucessful than the Kinks. Both BTB and TSMR sold reasonably well, none of the Kinks albums did.

<Is We Love You more "pop" than Get Off Of My Cloud ? And if successful is measured only in terms of record sales, then clearly the Stones were more sucessful than the Kinks>

Yes, yes and no (UK).

You Really Got Me #1
All Day And All Of The Night #2
Tired Of Waiting For You #1
Sunny Afternoon #1
Dead End Street #5
Till The End Of The Day #8
Dedicated Follower Of Fashion #4
Death Of A Clown #3
Waterloo Sunset #2
Autumn Almanac #3

If we define the two first songs on list as rock, the string of pop hits would still be much long that that of the Stones.

<none of the Kinks albums did>

UK:
1964 Kinks #3
1965 Kinda Kinks #3
1965 The Kink Kontroversy #9
1966 Face to Face #12
1967 Something Else by The Kinks #35



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-12 15:57 by DandelionPowderman.

In my opinion the categories (rock songs vs pop songs and experimental vs commercial pop songs) are not that sharply distinguished from each others in Stones case for the years 1965 -67. I for one have for years or decades considered all their single A-sides also as noisy pop songs, as such sometimes experimental pop as well, from "The Last Time" onwards until and including "We Love You" (the second but last of which a double A-sided single represented for the argument's sake by the most noisy one of the two). Not seldom the songs can in such a perspective be given more definitions than one. Even "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and "Honky Tonk Women" have some pop qualities about them. In that light, Stones songs with (noisy) pop qualities are not at all few. And at the time of 1965-67 the common denominator for these single A-sides, if there could be said to be one, I myself at the time took to be the typical Stones songs.

There are clear differences between

this:




and this:

As to pop aspects, the first one is a noisy song, whereas the second one is not that much.

And, of course, they are different. But directly contradicting the presented view that there are no sharp differences between the categories? I think not.

Edits are about misprints, plus a question mark.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-12 16:11 by Witness.

You got a point, Witness, and this may not have been the best of examples.

The main musical difference, however, is within the blues and r&b-aspect, in which the Stones-rockers mainly came from prior to their "pop career" in 66/67.

That should be indisputable, imo.

For the first period of two albums and a couple of EP's, I think there is a primary difference between 1) blues, R&B and later also soul, and 2) rock songs, not saying that this distinction fully exhaust the subject matter.
Added: They did not make so much pop songs then, even if purists probably would argue that my beloved song "Tell Me" is an example. Possibly from purists, also their version "You Better Move on" and "Congratulations"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-12 16:27 by Witness.

All the rock songs had these musical styles in them. The pop songs not so much.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Is We Love You more "pop" than Get Off Of My Cloud ? And if successful is measured only in terms of record sales, then clearly the Stones were more sucessful than the Kinks>

Yes, yes and no (UK).

You Really Got Me #1
All Day And All Of The Night #2
Tired Of Waiting For You #1
Sunny Afternoon #1
Dead End Street #5
Till The End Of The Day #8
Dedicated Follower Of Fashion #4
Death Of A Clown #3
Waterloo Sunset #2
Autumn Almanac #3

If we define the two first songs on list as rock, the string of pop hits would still be much long that that of the Stones.

<none of the Kinks albums did>

UK:
1964 Kinks #3
1965 Kinda Kinks #3
1965 The Kink Kontroversy #9
1966 Face to Face #12
1967 Something Else by The Kinks #35

You have simply defined the Kinks pop period to be longer than the Stones'. Ofcourse they had more hits then. If you look at a fixed time frame 66+67, then
the numbers look like this:
Kinks:
Dedicated Follower of Fashion # 4
Sunny Afternoon # 1
Dead End Street # 5
Waterloo Sunset # 2
Autumn Almanac # 3
LPs:
Face To Face #12
Something Else By The Kinks #35

Stones:
19th Nervous Breakdown # 1
Paint It, Black # 1
Have You Seen Your Mother # 5
Let's Spend The Night Tog. # 3
We Love You # 8
LPs:
Aftermath # 1
Between The Buttons # 3
Their Satanic Majesties # 3

A clear home victory!

I won't define TSMR as a pop album.

PIB and 19thNB aren't really pop as such.

An important note: The Kinks played pop longer than the Stones did. That also makes them bigger in that segment. But you have several points, I give you that.

I have often thought about THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST as as an album of experimental pop.
As to the mentionned two singles my argument was that the categories are doubly relevant in their case.

As to the Kinks: What would you call "You Really Got Me", "All the Day And All of the Night", "Set Me Free" and "Till the End of the Day"? As pop songs only? Some of these songs, are they not by some mentionned as early predecessors of 'heavy rock'?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-12 16:46 by Witness.

Quote
DandelionPowderman


I won't define TSMR as a pop album.

PIB and 19thNB aren't really pop as such.

An important note: The Kinks played pop longer than the Stones did. That also makes them bigger in that segment. But you have several points, I give you that.

Good. I love the Kinks, by the way, have all their LPs and every single f...ing single. (Yes, even You Still Want Me, but in very poor condition.) One of my favourite Kinks songs is Shangri-La. I also love the trilogy Something Else/Village Green/Arthur. A shame they didn't sell so well!