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Although I love the studio cut, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the live versions as subjective as this might be. When they opened with this song for the 72 NA tour and following tour of Europe in 73 BS was fantastic. The tapes don't lie, and having seen them play this on those respective tours it was the real deal with lots of power and grit. As good as it would ever be.
Not sure why you felt those performances were lacking?
Maybe my choice of words were a bit off. I certainly do not dislike the later versions and I agree that the 72/73 are better than what came later. I suppose I just like the "feel" of the studio version a bit better and the 69 to 71 versions captured that in a truer sense. On a different note I always thought the 72 tour versions of "Tumbling Dice" were dreadful ( it seemed it just drug along) but by Europe 73 it sounded right to me so maybe I'm a bit fickle!
I think it is funny how we hear the same song but judge it so differently. I happened to love the groove the Stones laid down with TD on the 72 tour. The core riff was really dominant and I think thats what made that song great. I really liked TD for example on Ladies and Gentlemen. To a large degree I think the amps they used on the 72 tour also contributed to a fantastic sound they were able to get live. TD also shined brightly for me on the 78 tour when they expanded the song on stage with Ronnie.
And what a great solo it is. It perfectly suits to the hot, sexy atmosphere of the song. A top class artistic choice - showing how damn inspired they were at the time - to put that there. A perfect example that the band was song-oriented, not guitar oriented unit at the time, making perfect recordings.
- Doxa
yes , so great they took bobby with them in 1981 for just that !
I'm not fond of sax solos anyway. Nice if it's an extra (like on Knocking), but not if it's the main thing. The same goes for Waiting On A Friend. It's a bit weak to link it to my medication.
The so called Clapton version shows that it can be better, even though I don't think a slide guitar is apt for the song. But all those 70-73 versions are exciting. Notice the difference between those versions. Very interesting.
There are, and those are very intesresting. But you cannot expect a studio version vary a lot, since it has been released...
- Doxa
Very true Doxa. But to me music has been invented and is intended to be played for an audience. People composed something and then is was played in front of other people. I love that kind of music making. When recording had been invented it all changed: classical music was played over and over again and the 'best' parts came on the record. Then the 'music painters' came, they wrote a song and played bits and pieces of it and put them together in a studio. Quite artifial to my taste and you can hear that, even on such much praised albums as Sgt. Pepper and Exile. As good as they are, I always prefer the live rendition of the songs. There's no escape in front of an audience, no studio means to correct errors or to 'improve' every little piece endlessly to 'perfection'. I miss the spontaneity on studio albums.
For instance: Torn & Frayed, a great song indeed. Very well 'played' on the studio album. But it doesn't move me at all. But every time I listen to the live version of that song, played in Vancouver, 1972 June 3, it moves me. Because that's Torn & Frayed in reality! For some it might sound like a trainwreck, but to me it's endless joy, even if the sound quality of the bootleg isn't that good, to say it mildly.
Agreed. Taylor's slide work in the '73 Rotterdam BS is superb.
That's too strongly put. Especially the beginning of the studio song is great (just like Let It Bleed), but when it goes on it becomes kind of monotone and unsurprising. I know it's sacrilege to say that, but well it's just my opinion.
Always loved this scene. Are we to assume they are in a motel, somewhere in the Muscle Shoals area, perhaps the evening immediately after recording BS and listening to the un-mastered day's cut?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
filstan
()
Date: August 27, 2013 17:05
Quote
scottkeef
Yeah, I have to say the best live performances of sugar are from 69-71. Just my opinion but I don't think they've come close to the vibe or power of the studio cut since those performances...I don't know why...
Although I love the studio cut, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the live versions as subjective as this might be. When they opened with this song for the 72 NA tour and following tour of Europe in 73 BS was fantastic. The tapes don't lie, and having seen them play this on those respective tours it was the real deal with lots of power and grit. As good as it would ever be.
Not sure why you felt those performances were lacking?
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
Eleanor Rigby
()
Date: August 27, 2013 17:08
Quote
ChrisMQuote
Who in the audience would've imagined that this group would be performing this seminal track forty-four years late to tens-of-thousands of fans?[/]
Meredith Hunter?
Umm..sadly Meredith never got to hear the song ever !
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: August 27, 2013 17:26
Quote
filstanQuote
scottkeef
Yeah, I have to say the best live performances of sugar are from 69-71. Just my opinion but I don't think they've come close to the vibe or power of the studio cut since those performances...I don't know why...
Although I love the studio cut, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the live versions as subjective as this might be. When they opened with this song for the 72 NA tour and following tour of Europe in 73 BS was fantastic. The tapes don't lie, and having seen them play this on those respective tours it was the real deal with lots of power and grit. As good as it would ever be.
Not sure why you felt those performances were lacking?
Maybe my choice of words were a bit off. I certainly do not dislike the later versions and I agree that the 72/73 are better than what came later. I suppose I just like the "feel" of the studio version a bit better and the 69 to 71 versions captured that in a truer sense. On a different note I always thought the 72 tour versions of "Tumbling Dice" were dreadful ( it seemed it just drug along) but by Europe 73 it sounded right to me so maybe I'm a bit fickle!
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: August 27, 2013 17:27
"All music is folk music...I ain't never heard no horse sing a song..."Quote
triceratops
This is folk music. The instrumentation is thin and folky compared to the over produced pap that is pop music today in recordings and on stage. Also thin compared to the Rolling Stones live these days
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
filstan
()
Date: August 27, 2013 17:41
Quote
scottkeefQuote
filstanQuote
scottkeef
Yeah, I have to say the best live performances of sugar are from 69-71. Just my opinion but I don't think they've come close to the vibe or power of the studio cut since those performances...I don't know why...
Although I love the studio cut, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the live versions as subjective as this might be. When they opened with this song for the 72 NA tour and following tour of Europe in 73 BS was fantastic. The tapes don't lie, and having seen them play this on those respective tours it was the real deal with lots of power and grit. As good as it would ever be.
Not sure why you felt those performances were lacking?
Maybe my choice of words were a bit off. I certainly do not dislike the later versions and I agree that the 72/73 are better than what came later. I suppose I just like the "feel" of the studio version a bit better and the 69 to 71 versions captured that in a truer sense. On a different note I always thought the 72 tour versions of "Tumbling Dice" were dreadful ( it seemed it just drug along) but by Europe 73 it sounded right to me so maybe I'm a bit fickle!
I think it is funny how we hear the same song but judge it so differently. I happened to love the groove the Stones laid down with TD on the 72 tour. The core riff was really dominant and I think thats what made that song great. I really liked TD for example on Ladies and Gentlemen. To a large degree I think the amps they used on the 72 tour also contributed to a fantastic sound they were able to get live. TD also shined brightly for me on the 78 tour when they expanded the song on stage with Ronnie.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 27, 2013 19:07
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The song is so good that it doesn't need a guitar solo. The spot is taken by Bobby already.
And what a great solo it is. It perfectly suits to the hot, sexy atmosphere of the song. A top class artistic choice - showing how damn inspired they were at the time - to put that there. A perfect example that the band was song-oriented, not guitar oriented unit at the time, making perfect recordings.
- Doxa
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
straycatblues73
()
Date: August 27, 2013 19:19
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
The song is so good that it doesn't need a guitar solo. The spot is taken by Bobby already.
And what a great solo it is. It perfectly suits to the hot, sexy atmosphere of the song. A top class artistic choice - showing how damn inspired they were at the time - to put that there. A perfect example that the band was song-oriented, not guitar oriented unit at the time, making perfect recordings.
- Doxa
yes , so great they took bobby with them in 1981 for just that !
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 27, 2013 19:26
what goes for the question, which are best live versions of "Brown Sugar", I need to say that Altamont version is special, and they never played so closely to the studio version (shit, they had just put it on the tape, so I guess it was pretty much in their mind). But I still would say that the best "road versions" do come from 1972/73 tours. The version in BRUSSELS AFFAIR, for example, is simply haunting. They really make the song fly, and I guess I never had such "transcendental" vibes probably of any live Stones tune than as when listening to that version. They transport the whole song to another zone, indeed, and I think not any other band ever has wandered there. There was just so much energy exploding when the band entered to stage during that tour.
- Doxa
- Doxa
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 27, 2013 20:12
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Kleerie, you're entitled to express your opinion, but it is indeed time to take your meds now.
Liste to the WHOLE song: the fantastic vocals, the guitars, the groove, the sax, the riffs. The song is so good that it doesn't need a guitar solo. The spot is taken by Bobby already.
I'm not fond of sax solos anyway. Nice if it's an extra (like on Knocking), but not if it's the main thing. The same goes for Waiting On A Friend. It's a bit weak to link it to my medication.
The so called Clapton version shows that it can be better, even though I don't think a slide guitar is apt for the song. But all those 70-73 versions are exciting. Notice the difference between those versions. Very interesting.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 27, 2013 20:18
Quote
kleermaker
But all those 70-73 versions are exciting. Notice the difference between those versions. Very interesting.
There are, and those are very intesresting. But you cannot expect a studio version vary a lot, since it has been released...
- Doxa
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 27, 2013 20:54
Sorry about bringing in the meds, kleerie. Bad joke.
I noticed you also said earlier that the original GS didn't go anywhere as well, so I understand where you're coming from - although I strongly disagree.
I noticed you also said earlier that the original GS didn't go anywhere as well, so I understand where you're coming from - although I strongly disagree.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
svt22
()
Date: August 27, 2013 21:08
I think we had a huge Brown Sugar problem if Adolphe Sax hadn't invented the saxophone. I would have voted for a french horn instead.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 27, 2013 21:57
Quote
DoxaQuote
kleermaker
But all those 70-73 versions are exciting. Notice the difference between those versions. Very interesting.
There are, and those are very intesresting. But you cannot expect a studio version vary a lot, since it has been released...
- Doxa
Very true Doxa. But to me music has been invented and is intended to be played for an audience. People composed something and then is was played in front of other people. I love that kind of music making. When recording had been invented it all changed: classical music was played over and over again and the 'best' parts came on the record. Then the 'music painters' came, they wrote a song and played bits and pieces of it and put them together in a studio. Quite artifial to my taste and you can hear that, even on such much praised albums as Sgt. Pepper and Exile. As good as they are, I always prefer the live rendition of the songs. There's no escape in front of an audience, no studio means to correct errors or to 'improve' every little piece endlessly to 'perfection'. I miss the spontaneity on studio albums.
For instance: Torn & Frayed, a great song indeed. Very well 'played' on the studio album. But it doesn't move me at all. But every time I listen to the live version of that song, played in Vancouver, 1972 June 3, it moves me. Because that's Torn & Frayed in reality! For some it might sound like a trainwreck, but to me it's endless joy, even if the sound quality of the bootleg isn't that good, to say it mildly.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: August 27, 2013 22:29
I love the '72-73 versions of Brown Sugar, but they are kind of grandiose. It becomes a bit more of an arena rock version, compared to the in-the-pocket groovy studio version and '69-71 performances. So I kind of agree with scottkeef there.
I also agree that Clapton's slide doesn't really work all that well, but I think Taylor's slide on it in '73 is pretty darned good.
I also agree that Clapton's slide doesn't really work all that well, but I think Taylor's slide on it in '73 is pretty darned good.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 27, 2013 22:34
Yeah, I can understand your stance, and appreciate it, Kleerie, even though I don't share it. Or, halfly I don't, since I also reckon studio music an artistic form of its own, even though - like you I think - I separate it from live music. That's why I have never liked the idea of doing replica kind of readings of studio versions or that the live versions suppose to be as close to the original studio versions as possible. More they are like what Keith calls as "road versions", the better and more interesting (original and authentic) they are. Live music should live.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-27 22:36 by Doxa.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-27 22:36 by Doxa.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
muffie
()
Date: August 27, 2013 22:59
Quote
LieB
.. I think Taylor's slide on it in '73 is pretty darned good.
Agreed. Taylor's slide work in the '73 Rotterdam BS is superb.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 27, 2013 23:10
Quote
DandelionPowderman
I noticed you also said earlier that the original GS didn't go anywhere as well, so I understand where you're coming from - although I strongly disagree.
That's too strongly put. Especially the beginning of the studio song is great (just like Let It Bleed), but when it goes on it becomes kind of monotone and unsurprising. I know it's sacrilege to say that, but well it's just my opinion.
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 27, 2013 23:24
And this is the place to share it 
Re: The Brown Sugar Live Debut
Posted by:
jazzbass
()
Date: August 28, 2013 06:04
Quote
LieBQuote
His MajestyQuote
stonehearted
The song was also featured in the movie Gimme Shelter in 1970, so it had quite a bit more audience exposure before becoming a hit a year later.
"Anybody in? Is my local groupie in?.... Hello, darling! How are you?...."
Ace scene that. Stanley's elbow move cracks me up.
Haha!
And Keith's hairdo here is the best any human being has ever sported.
Always loved this scene. Are we to assume they are in a motel, somewhere in the Muscle Shoals area, perhaps the evening immediately after recording BS and listening to the un-mastered day's cut?
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