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blivet

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Thrylan
Another thing that works against the "freeze out" conspiracy, is there are no Brian boots. Keith has indicated that he never brought a product they could try to produce. Bill wrote very little at the time, But he gets a song and a vocal, and there are a couple Bill penned boots.

As far as I know the only recording of any song written by Brian is that Rice Krispies jingle, which is OK but hardly a pop masterpiece (and suspiciously "co-written" by the ad agency).

I am not joking when i say the rice krispies jingle is a highlight of the early canon. It seriously rocks like route 66 and the like. Shame it's only half a minute and about rice krispies. Nearly as good as Grace Slick's / Jefferson Airplane white levis advert. A psychedelic tour de force.

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blivet

As far as I know the only recording of any song written by Brian is that Rice Krispies jingle, which is OK but hardly a pop masterpiece (and suspiciously "co-written" by the ad agency).

I've asked before without response, but does anyone recall one of Brian's contributions being recorded and subsequently ending up on an acetate of out-take-samples? I think I have the brief snippet somewhere. If I recall correctly, the recording features overly-loud female backing. The song is documented in Martin Elliot's book, but I do not have it to hand to check. Anyone?

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His Majesty
Bill plays the vibraphone on Monkey Man and a very good job he did too.

There is a small group of Brian Jones fans that think the credits on Let It Bleed are not true, that Brian plays on it a lot more than credited. It is my opinion that those people are just very deluded. These same people tend to have further conspiracy like thinking about credits for a whole number of songs.

I don't think it's Bill. When has Bill ever been that inventive or musical? But then, given what
you assert about people who dare to question Rolling Stones credits, that must mean I am "very deluded,"
rather than being a Stones' fan with probably about as much insight and experience as you
do, and simply a differing opinion Or my point about someone having significant influence
on the way a song came into shape and form, without it rising to the level of "credit.

Incidentally, a friend got out his early pressing of Let It Bleed and Brian is listed as harp on
Midnight Rambler. But maybe he's "very delusional" too - LOL.

-swiss

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swiss

Incidentally, a friend got out his early pressing of Let It Bleed and Brian is listed as harp on
Midnight Rambler. But maybe he's "very delusional" too - LOL.

-swiss

Hmm, interesting.

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swiss


I don't think it's Bill. When has Bill ever been that inventive or musical? But then, given what
you assert about people who dare to question Rolling Stones credits, that must mean I am "very deluded,"
rather than being a Stones' fan with probably about as much insight and experience as you
do, and simply a differing opinion Or my point about someone having significant influence
on the way a song came into shape and form, without it rising to the level of "credit.

Incidentally, a friend got out his early pressing of Let It Bleed and Brian is listed as harp on
Midnight Rambler. But maybe he's "very delusional" too - LOL.

-swiss

In his own little way Bill has been inventive and musical quite a lot. The vibraphone part on Monkey Man is very easy to play, it just sounds cool.

Question credits? Sure, but many of the people I mention only question in order to try and give Brian credit, not to find out who really played what. They tend not to appreciate any hard proof which shows that someone else played something they long believed to be Brian.

If that's not you then the delusional part doesn't apply to you.

Can you show us this early pressing with Brian harmonica credit? The Let It Bleed credits seem fine to me and there's various anecdotes, some quite detailed, by various people involved in the sessions to back up some of those credits.

What the recordings of those songs might have featured before they made it to the album is something else.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-18 03:01 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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swiss
I don't think it's Bill. When has Bill ever been that inventive or musical? But then, given what
you assert about people who dare to question Rolling Stones credits, that must mean I am "very deluded,"
rather than being a Stones' fan with probably about as much insight and experience as you
do, and simply a differing opinion Or my point about someone having significant influence
on the way a song came into shape and form, without it rising to the level of "credit.

Incidentally, a friend got out his early pressing of Let It Bleed and Brian is listed as harp on
Midnight Rambler. But maybe he's "very delusional" too - LOL.

-swiss

In his own little way Bill has been inventive and musical quite a lot. The vibraphone part on Monkey Man is very easy to play, it just sounds cool.

---> hi - well, I'm not guaranteeing it's Brian or flat-outdenying it's Bill, and Bill did add something
to many songs (there should be a Bill Appreciation thread, or maybe there has been one), but I do
strenuously doubt that Bill Wyman would have come up with the idea to add vibes to Monkey Man, or
even, probably, decide he'd be the one to step up and play vibes. Just not in him.

His contributions ("in his own little way," as you say) usually don't tend to add interesting coloration,
or dimensionality, or be all that inventive -- which is completely fine, because his contributions are
valuable in other respects. But I think it's safe to agree on that.

And adding vibes to Monkey Man is literally an act of genius--and Bill is not a genius, his music with
and without the Stones doesn't connote genius, while Brian probably was, and his contributions reflect
that--to the extent we know for certain what was his, as well as in his own music. Adding vibes or
marimba or xylophone to Monkey Man is almost completely counterintuitive, almost illogical to do,
and I believe only Brian (and pooooossssssibly Mick, on a rare wild musical hunch, if there were already
a vibraphone or marimba sitting right there) would ever have "heard" how well it would work with---or
gorgeously exist in conflict and contrast with--the song.

Along those same lines, I think it's also possible that Brian would have suggested cello on
You Got the Silver.

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His Majesty
Question credits? Sure, but many of the people I mention only question in order to try and give Brian credit, not to find out who really played what. They tend not to appreciate any hard proof which shows that someone else played something they long believed to be Brian.

---> oh, well, I agree -- that kneejerk stuff is no fun at all!

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His Majesty
If that's not you then the delusional part doesn't apply to you.

---> great I think we've always tended to like/respect each other well enough over the years, so
was somewhat taken aback by the stridency if directed at me.

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His Majesty
Can you show us this early pressing with Brian harmonica credit? The Let It Bleed credits seem fine to me and there's various anecdotes, some quite detailed, by various people involved in the sessions to back up some of those credits.

---> I will ask my friend to take a picture and email it to me. Will post here.

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His Majesty
What the recordings of those songs might have featured before they made it to the album is something else.

Well, I did say in my looooOOOooong post, that "credit" is a dodgy concept. And that it could theoretically
include those who conceptualized it, who came up the arrangement, who played ghost/guide parts. And
Monkey Man is SO heavily mixed the credits might seem rather amorphous if portrayed accurately.

Slightly off-topic----what is the other instrument playing (an E and F the octave above Middle C) in the intro
8 bars of Monkey Man that sounds vaguely like a French horn? mellotron, maybe?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-18 06:18 by swiss.

Bill Wyman should never be underestimated in what he contributed to the Rolling Stones in the studio and on stage.

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stonesrule
Bill Wyman should never be underestimated in what he contributed to the Rolling Stones in the studio and on stage.

Love to hear you say more instead of just issuing an edict of what Should Be, stonesrule

xo
swiss

Swiss, I think you are putting too much weight on to the vibraphone on Monkey Man.

All it takes for such a thing to happen is for one to be there from an orchestral session or something and for the band or one of the band to think the track needs a little something else. Bill messes about and finds a very simple part to add that sounds nice, they record it, job done.

The layout of a vibraphone is just the same as a keyboard on a piano, organ etc. Anyone who is in anyway familiar with a keyboard, which Bill was, could easily get some partial chords and some octaves out of a vibraphone.

Btw, soft gentle sustained notes at the very start are by Keith on guitar.

According to Sean Egan's - Making of Let It Bleed book the sessions for Monkey Man took place during April 17th - 22nd, then 10th June - 2nd July.

So it might be that the vibraphone wasn't added until after Brian had left he band.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-18 13:15 by His Majesty.

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Big Al

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blivet

As far as I know the only recording of any song written by Brian is that Rice Krispies jingle, which is OK but hardly a pop masterpiece (and suspiciously "co-written" by the ad agency).

I've asked before without response, but does anyone recall one of Brian's contributions being recorded and subsequently ending up on an acetate of out-take-samples? I think I have the brief snippet somewhere. If I recall correctly, the recording features overly-loud female backing. The song is documented in Martin Elliot's book, but I do not have it to hand to check. Anyone?

According to James Karnbach -
Sure I Do (poss rec nov 20/21 1963) was composed by Brian and features him on vocals.
I Want You To Know (dec 7th or 9th ?) acetate - composer credited as Jagger/Richard crossed out, then Brian Jones crossed out, then Jagger/Richard.
so that one's a maybe maybe not.

What a shame that all those acetates (there are several others) have not seen the light of day. I'm not sure but i think they might be owned by Karnbach.
There's also an acetate for Over You which was auctioned in 1995. May have been recorded in feb 1964 at Regent Sound. Not a Stones original - originally by Aaron Neville.
Not forgetting the Radio Luxembourg acetate Bill has - i keep bringing it up in the hope someone in power will finally wake up - studio quality early Stones rockin' out on 14 or so early stage favourites. Why the cluck has that not been released or leaked in some form. C'mon guys.

Thank you for the response, ash. I suspect the snippet is from I Want You To Now. It's such a tease only have a few seconds of the song!

I see where a couple posters are going, and follow the logic, but still don't feel like Brian lent much to LIB, and MM in particular. Bill certainly did play around on various keyboard instruments. JJF, for instance started as a Bill piano riff. Also, bass is a bit different from guitar, and is generally laid done pretty early as a foundation, which would leave plenty of time for Bill to experiment with various instruments and themes. Given that the piano is nearly as dominant as the Keith parts,(sugar to the salt), to me, the break sounds like something a piano player like Nicky Hopkins would come up with, little flourishes and such.Brian tended to come from left field so to speak, whereas this is more of a "fitting augmentation." Also at work here, is human nature; The more one drifts from a group, the more the group tends to ignore the one. Although no one has brought it up, given Bill's expanding role from @ 67' forward, Brian's decline may have been viewed as an opportunity by Bill.

With all due respect to His Majesty, Brian is a tough nut for me to crack. He was a driving force in the early stages, until @65'-66', but then his positive contributions changed. When they stopped doing covers, and began to gain an identity, he began to lose his. He was a bluesman first, but it was his experimentation that allowed them to stray from their roots. When they split, he was wanting to revisit his roots, but that is what they were doing, he should have been more interested. It's all rather ironic really.

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Thrylan
With all due respect to His Majesty, Brian is a tough nut for me to crack.

I think it can be summed up quite simply though, He was probably a self centered, obnoxious little boy. Someone who usually had ace hair and ace clothes. He was talented and contributed some ace things to The Rolling Stones music.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-18 16:32 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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Thrylan
With all due respect to His Majesty, Brian is a tough nut for me to crack.

I think it can be summed up quite simply though, He was probably a self centered, obnoxious little boy. Someone who usually had ace hair and ace clothes. He was talented and contributed some ace things to The Rolling Stones music.

Easier than I thought.

what the f...?????

arg! These threads are hurting my brain!

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Thrylan
He was a bluesman first, but it was his experimentation that allowed them to stray from their roots. When they split, he was wanting to revisit his roots, but that is what they were doing, he should have been more interested. It's all rather ironic really.

I think his jealousies of Mick/Keith and general paranoia, enhanced by drug and alcohol abuse, abuse of Anita, loss of Anita to Keith, his arrest etc were the things that brought about his split from the other members.

I don't think 'musically' per se they were going off in different directions. I think that is the public excuse they used to 'part ways'.

Brian was his own worst enemy, and however he actually died, I'm quite sure the situation he placed himself into contributed to his demise. Very sad.

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treaclefingers

I think his jealousies of Mick/Keith and general paranoia, enhanced by drug and alcohol abuse, abuse of Anita, loss of Anita to Keith, his arrest etc were the things that brought about his split from the other members.

I don't think 'musically' per se they were going off in different directions. I think that is the public excuse they used to 'part ways'.

Brian was his own worst enemy, and however he actually died, I'm quite sure the situation he placed himself into contributed to his demise. Very sad.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

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His Majesty

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treaclefingers

I think his jealousies of Mick/Keith and general paranoia, enhanced by drug and alcohol abuse, abuse of Anita, loss of Anita to Keith, his arrest etc were the things that brought about his split from the other members.

I don't think 'musically' per se they were going off in different directions. I think that is the public excuse they used to 'part ways'.

Brian was his own worst enemy, and however he actually died, I'm quite sure the situation he placed himself into contributed to his demise. Very sad.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

and I, totally agree with your assessment!

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His Majesty
Who played Mellotron - mandolin sound on Factory Girl remains some what a mystery, but various books and sites have credited Dave Mason with that part for decades.

Discussing Beggars Banquet on that BBC radio interview in 1988 or 1989 (http://www.iorr.org/talk/read.php?1,1915742,1916018#msg-1916018 ) Keith says on Factory Girl: 'and Nicky came up with a little uh, uh, fiddle, uh, he came up with that fiddle effect'.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
Who played Mellotron - mandolin sound on Factory Girl remains some what a mystery, but various books and sites have credited Dave Mason with that part for decades.

Discussing Beggars Banquet on that BBC radio interview in 1988 or 1989 (http://www.iorr.org/talk/read.php?1,1915742,1916018#msg-1916018 ) Keith says on Factory Girl: 'and Nicky came up with a little uh, uh, fiddle, uh, he came up with that fiddle effect'.

Mathijs

Yeah, that's a hint and why I've been saying for a few years that it might have been Nicky that played the Mellotron mandolin part.

Hi everybody. This is a most interesting thread. Can anybody give me access to the pictures by Ethan Russell & Eric Hayes posted on page 1 of the thread? I'd really like to see them actually. Thank you in advance!