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there's a few moments of commentary about this on 'Crossfire Hurricane"
Brian would be given something to do, if he bothered to show up for a session.. then they got his slide on 'No Expectations'..the last music of any substance with them that Brian recorded..
That makes sense. But then you have to wonder why he decided to go over to Redlands in Spring 69 and play/record. Why was he invited there and then they turn around and fire him a few weeks later in June. I actually think they could of kept him in the band and just hired someone to tour with them (kind of like what happened with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys in I think 1966)! Was the Redlands sessions only one day and why did they not meet in the recording studio?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-16 17:17 by 2000 LYFH.
That's true but of the tracks you list only No Expectations and the possibility of him contributing acoustic and harmonica to Parachute Woman really stand out as something special to my mind. His mellotron part on We Love You for instance is stunning and essential. I'm not sure how much we'd miss him on the other tracks and i'm sure Mick and Keith could have come up with something in his absence. Those tracks are already strong. His earlier contributions are more game-changing so to speak.
Do we know what he may have contributed to Jumping Jack Flash/Child Of The Moon ?
That's got to be one of the best singles of the 1960's. Sounds like there's quite a few guitars dotted around Flash including possibly a 12string electric.
The painted faces promo video for JJF might just be the best piece of film of the band. They look seriously threatening - parents look out.
If they'd babied him and put an arm around him and pulled him closer, he might have responded positively.
I don't think he ever had much of that.
I laugh when I see that video because Bill looks the most spectral of all. His unconventional looks contribute to the 'ugly' look of the band.
Another great reason to watch the promo version on YouTube is the outro funky organ piece is extended and goes on much longer than the single.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 00:18 by 24FPS.
The spring 1969 Michael Cooper photos appear to be from the same day.
The band often gathered together to play/rehearse/record together outside of the studio. Redlands, Morden studio and from circa September 1968 their own rehearsal studio at Bermondsey Street were all used during 1968 - 1969.
Why Brian would be there is simple, he was still a member of the band.
Gotcha.
He is supposed to have played guitar on Jumpin' Jack Flash, but which guitar(s) on the track were him remain unknown really. It is certain that he played soprano saxophone on Child of the Moon.
Big Al - I haven't visited iorr in awhile, but came here tonight to post a question about Brian Jones
and Let It Bleed -- and here's your thread. Must be in the air somehow!
Anyway, was just listening to Let It Bleed with headphones, and when Monkey Man came on I wondered about
the possibility of Brian on that song. Why? Well, first the mellotron, or vibes, or whatever the hell it
is playing under and around Nicky Hopkins piano, as if a ghost track was laid down on vibes or whatever,
and Nicky later fleshed it out, but the ghost track was left in.
Caveat: I have mixed feeling about Brian, and great appreciation for him musically, but I don't muse
on Brian all that often, because I usually have other things to think about, even when thinking about the
Rolling Stones. So, I'm just making the point that I'm not a Brian revisionist
But then there's something, well...Brian-y about the song. I know, I know - it's the LEAST Brian-y song ever,
right? But hear me out: Monkey Man, which I love, is a super-complex musically layered song. It's also quite
Musical; im fact, almost symphonic in its complexities and contradictions. I mean, it tears shit up, no doubt - but
it has a level of musicality to it that the others would ascend to shortly (Keith was just arriving there, and
Jimmy Miller), but I am going to make a bold statement and say: I think Brian Jones may have played on Monkey
Man, and had something to do with its overall character. I'm not asserting this with steadfast certainty. but
I wandered over to iorr to toss out that hypothesis tonight.
It's musically almost like the final rising up up Brian vs Keith. Sort of an epic clash of the titans song -- with
Keith ethos dominating ultimately. The Brian contribution (or possibly it was only influence--direct or indirect)
is weaker and quieter than Keith's killer shit, certainly, but I think it may be there.
I mean...the meandering interlude in the middle of "Monkey Man" ain't Keith. The soaring vibe, the intent, the freedom,
the idealism -- none of that's Keith. And, yeah, Mick and Keith then violently wretch all over it, and grind it
into the beautifully fetid dreck -- this internal conflict, integral to this song's profundity, power, and
irreverance -- very Keith [and, of course, Mick] but something very Brian this way goes.
I love this thread and can't believe it's here right now, excatly when I was thinking of Brian in the context of Let
It Bleed. Thanks, Al. There are too many comments people have made for which I wish I could hit a Like button [man,
have we ever goten lazy!]. I remember reading someone several years ago claiming Brian is all over Let It Bleed, and
it sort of annoyed me, because this is my favorite Stones' album and I've heard it a trillion times, and I thought it
was just a Brian zealot doing his Brian zealot thing [could have been], but---as said---tonight I was stunned suddenly to
hear Brian in one of the least likely places: lurking in Monkey Man.
I think it was 24FPS who quoted His Majesty as saying the following:
"if Brian had made a decent contribution i
feel sure the band would have used it regardless
of how they felt about him,"
I have to say, although I agree with 95% of what people are saying (Ash, I don't think we know each other, but I
appreciate what you've written here), I don't agree with that statement, with all due respect, His Majesty. you've read
LIFE. And it's what? 42 years after Brian's death that KR was spewing the vitriol that he was about Brian? He's an emotional
and a passionate guy. And, if LIFE is any indication, Keith does hold a grudge. Some of the most bitter, fresh,
and mouldering grudges I've ever bourne witness to.
So, no, I can't see Keith---despite his sense of valor that has played itself out honorably, over the years---"rising above
it" and leaving Brian in and giving him credit if Brian's playing had merited it. Keith bled all over this record, going
back in, late at night, to futz around, and I think if there was anything of Brian's worth keeping Keith there's about
exactly a 50/50 chance he would have left good stuff in (and, simply, out of pique and spite), dubbed-over and wiped out
other shit that was worthy. And not given credit for any of it.
Possibly--given how irrationally contemptuous he still seemed about Brian, in 2011, in LIFE---not necessarily even fully
conscious of what was Brian. He saw Brian as so worthless by then. How could be give him credit...?
btw...someone indicated that KR was wasted in the sessions fo Let It Bleed, and that was one of the few statements in this
thread that I'm not sure is quite accurate. There were moments, of course, but he wasn't the nodding-out junkie of a
handful of years hence, by any stretch.
- swiss
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 09:24 by swiss.
That's funny
I think that's pretty spot on Your Royal Highness. I'm still not sure he made a particularly notable contribution to Beggars though. I mean he's on the record in several places but you wouldn't really miss him if he wasn't save for Expectations and Keith could play that couldn't he ? It's not like trying to replace the lead guitar on Voodoo Chile (Slight Return).
I wish that 1968 NME concert survived in some form.
Interesting on your Moon comparison. I think another comparison can be made to Sid Barrett the first guitarist in Pink Floyd. He was the leading drive in the 1965 to mid 1967 years and then seemed (via too many LSD trips) to loose control and interest in his band. They bought in David Gilmore as a safety net and in the Spring of 1968 Sid was more or less forced out. Sounds a little bit like what happened to Brian. Both were leaders and then both were forced out...
Would have been interesting to see a Brian Jones and Sid Barrett collaboration!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 18:30 by 2000 LYFH.
As far as I know the only recording of any song written by Brian is that Rice Krispies jingle, which is OK but hardly a pop masterpiece (and suspiciously "co-written" by the ad agency).
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: July 15, 2013 23:09
Quote
Thrylan
I believe the Keith quote was, "Brian had drank, doped and f#cked himself beyond usefulness" I am also fairly certain when he did or would show up, they turned him down, and just let him play, much like placating a child.
there's a few moments of commentary about this on 'Crossfire Hurricane"
Brian would be given something to do, if he bothered to show up for a session.. then they got his slide on 'No Expectations'..the last music of any substance with them that Brian recorded..
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
Jayce
()
Date: July 16, 2013 05:24
Mick remembered "No Expectations" as the last meaningful contribution -- but does anyone know what the dates were were of Brian's main "Beggars Banquet" contributions?
"Jigsaw Puzzle" - mellotron
"No Expectations" - Slide
"Dear Doctor" - harmonica
"Parachute Woman" - harmonica(?); acoustic guitar (?)
"Street Fighting Man" - tamboura
"Prodigal Son" - harmonica (?)
"Factory Girl" - mellotron
"Stray Cat Blues" - mellotron
"Salt of the Earth" - slide (or is that Keith?)
I would love to hear his acoustic on "Sympathy," but I believe it was completely wiped, right?
Of course, I know that I may be asking for minute information, so bear with me for being an obsessive.
In reading the "Brian Jones and 'Let it Bleed'" thread, I wish I could hear just how "bad" Brian was, so I could judge for myself. For example, His Majesty has posted some takes of "The Lantern" with Brian on acoustic -- a contribution that was not used on "Satanic Majesties." It was definitely not as smooth as Keith, but it was not terrible. nevertheless, if Keith could do it better, why not?
It's a weird fascination -- like watching Ali's final two fights - you can't help but watch, even though you want to turn away. I want to hear it.
"Jigsaw Puzzle" - mellotron
"No Expectations" - Slide
"Dear Doctor" - harmonica
"Parachute Woman" - harmonica(?); acoustic guitar (?)
"Street Fighting Man" - tamboura
"Prodigal Son" - harmonica (?)
"Factory Girl" - mellotron
"Stray Cat Blues" - mellotron
"Salt of the Earth" - slide (or is that Keith?)
I would love to hear his acoustic on "Sympathy," but I believe it was completely wiped, right?
Of course, I know that I may be asking for minute information, so bear with me for being an obsessive.
In reading the "Brian Jones and 'Let it Bleed'" thread, I wish I could hear just how "bad" Brian was, so I could judge for myself. For example, His Majesty has posted some takes of "The Lantern" with Brian on acoustic -- a contribution that was not used on "Satanic Majesties." It was definitely not as smooth as Keith, but it was not terrible. nevertheless, if Keith could do it better, why not?
It's a weird fascination -- like watching Ali's final two fights - you can't help but watch, even though you want to turn away. I want to hear it.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 16, 2013 12:25
Th slide on Salt Of The Earth was most likley Keith. Who played Mellotron - mandolin sound on Factory Girl remains some what a mystery, but various books and sites have credited Dave Mason with that part for decades.
...
Regarding wanting to hear him, I'm with you on that. Just how bad was he? Did he still have good days, even great days like 1967 - 1968.
The Rock & Roll Circus should be taken on board as it falls within the Let It Bleed timeline. What is the take away from that performance? If he were able, he could have shown his worth, but we get half hearted playing along, some basic chuck berry rhythm and a shaky, worrying bit of slide playing. All at the playing standard of someone who has been learning guitar for about 6 months.
Despite their differences I think that had Brian played anything remarkable or worth keeping during Let It Bleed sessions they would have kept it on what ever tracks he played on. Maybe he played well on earlier takes, but wasn't around for takes nearer finished versions, or he's on some unreleased songs.
However, I can't think of one positive story about Brian from this time. Both from within and without the band it's just him being absent or if he's in studio it's in some sad way.
The only known musical reality for us studio wise is just some mystery percussion and a learn in 10 minutes autoharp part. Joke contributions in comparison to the majestic career defining nature of what the others were contributing.
Going by all of the stories and the musical clues, by 1969 everything that was wrong with Brian as a person and all of the issues between him and the band was exaggerated to an unbearable level. Even more absences, more wasted appearances, more dis-interest, but probably and most importantly... no remarkable musical contributions.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-16 12:34 by His Majesty.
...
Regarding wanting to hear him, I'm with you on that. Just how bad was he? Did he still have good days, even great days like 1967 - 1968.
The Rock & Roll Circus should be taken on board as it falls within the Let It Bleed timeline. What is the take away from that performance? If he were able, he could have shown his worth, but we get half hearted playing along, some basic chuck berry rhythm and a shaky, worrying bit of slide playing. All at the playing standard of someone who has been learning guitar for about 6 months.
Despite their differences I think that had Brian played anything remarkable or worth keeping during Let It Bleed sessions they would have kept it on what ever tracks he played on. Maybe he played well on earlier takes, but wasn't around for takes nearer finished versions, or he's on some unreleased songs.
However, I can't think of one positive story about Brian from this time. Both from within and without the band it's just him being absent or if he's in studio it's in some sad way.
The only known musical reality for us studio wise is just some mystery percussion and a learn in 10 minutes autoharp part. Joke contributions in comparison to the majestic career defining nature of what the others were contributing.
Going by all of the stories and the musical clues, by 1969 everything that was wrong with Brian as a person and all of the issues between him and the band was exaggerated to an unbearable level. Even more absences, more wasted appearances, more dis-interest, but probably and most importantly... no remarkable musical contributions.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-16 12:34 by His Majesty.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 16, 2013 15:45
I have to agree with His Majesty on this. If we look at the whole year of 1968 and the 6 months of 1969 the only meaningful contribution is the No Expectations slide (which is nice but by no means exceptional), the Rock 'n' Roll Circus on which he is barely audible (that could be a political thing so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt but other musicians report him as being in a dreadful emotional state) and the NME Pollwinners concert in May 1968 for which we have no evidence either way and probably never will despite the occassional rumours to the contrary.
During this period the rest of the band produced 2 contenders for their best ever album (my fave is Beggars),one of the best singles ever (Flash) and HTW which i personally am not wild about but it's hard to deny it's status in the Stones catalogue.
So what we're left with for whatever reason is a guy who can't or wont play, is disliked by his closest musical colleagues (who have more than rediscovered their mojo, they're on a winning streak) and who is probably unable to tour even if the various authorities let him in to their countries.
As His Majesty said, if Brian had made a decent contribution i feel sure the band would have used it regardless of how they felt about him.
It was a very sad end to a career that had some amazing highlights and gave us the band we love.
Given what we think we know of his general behaviour it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keylock or whoever completely lost it with him. ...i'll stop there, i'm drifting into another thread.
Unless we ever get to hear the multitrack session tapes we are unlikely to get a better picture of Brians final 18 months as a musician. Better to celebrate those first 4 or 5 years - not many can claim to have made the kind of contribution to pop music that he did.
During this period the rest of the band produced 2 contenders for their best ever album (my fave is Beggars),one of the best singles ever (Flash) and HTW which i personally am not wild about but it's hard to deny it's status in the Stones catalogue.
So what we're left with for whatever reason is a guy who can't or wont play, is disliked by his closest musical colleagues (who have more than rediscovered their mojo, they're on a winning streak) and who is probably unable to tour even if the various authorities let him in to their countries.
As His Majesty said, if Brian had made a decent contribution i feel sure the band would have used it regardless of how they felt about him.
It was a very sad end to a career that had some amazing highlights and gave us the band we love.
Given what we think we know of his general behaviour it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keylock or whoever completely lost it with him. ...i'll stop there, i'm drifting into another thread.
Unless we ever get to hear the multitrack session tapes we are unlikely to get a better picture of Brians final 18 months as a musician. Better to celebrate those first 4 or 5 years - not many can claim to have made the kind of contribution to pop music that he did.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 16, 2013 16:12
No there's more to him than just No Expectations during Beggars Banquet sessions, we have 10 or so studio tracks featuring him. forward to the R&R Circus and Let It Bleed sessions and he seems to have withdrawn even further.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: July 16, 2013 16:39
My thoughts: I think he recovered or tried in early 1968 thanks to Micks diplomacy (?) or manipulation. Of course things were over between Brian and Keith on a personal level and hence between Brian and Mick on a professional level. He didnt want to show up later in 1968 and felt as an outsider once the recordings started with Keith and Mick as leaders. Then he felt shut out during the fall of 1968 and during Circus an emotional wreck. He seems to change again for the worse during the last phase in 1969, "smiling" and ghostlike. Yet contributing on some numbers but without any real position in the band.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: July 16, 2013 17:03
Quote
Redhotcarpet
My thoughts: I think he recovered or tried in early 1968 thanks to Micks diplomacy (?) or manipulation. Of course things were over between Brian and Keith on a personal level and hence between Brian and Mick on a professional level. He didnt want to show up later in 1968 and felt as an outsider once the recordings started with Keith and Mick as leaders. Then he felt shut out during the fall of 1968 and during Circus an emotional wreck. He seems to change again for the worse during the last phase in 1969, "smiling" and ghostlike. Yet contributing on some numbers but without any real position in the band.
That makes sense. But then you have to wonder why he decided to go over to Redlands in Spring 69 and play/record. Why was he invited there and then they turn around and fire him a few weeks later in June. I actually think they could of kept him in the band and just hired someone to tour with them (kind of like what happened with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys in I think 1966)! Was the Redlands sessions only one day and why did they not meet in the recording studio?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-16 17:17 by 2000 LYFH.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: July 16, 2013 17:12
Brian was probably torn between leaving the band and not wanting to leave the band. Wanting to be accepted by the band, and at the same time rejecting the band. If they'd babied him and put an arm around him and pulled him closer, he might have responded positively. And then he might have turned around and bit them in the ass.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
two4fun111
()
Date: July 16, 2013 17:26
the bags under Brian's eyes sure enough foretell the end was getting near
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 16, 2013 18:00
Quote
His Majesty
No there's more to him than just No Expectations during Beggars Banquet sessions, we have 10 or so studio tracks featuring him. forward to the R&R Circus and Let It Bleed sessions and he seems to have withdrawn even further.
That's true but of the tracks you list only No Expectations and the possibility of him contributing acoustic and harmonica to Parachute Woman really stand out as something special to my mind. His mellotron part on We Love You for instance is stunning and essential. I'm not sure how much we'd miss him on the other tracks and i'm sure Mick and Keith could have come up with something in his absence. Those tracks are already strong. His earlier contributions are more game-changing so to speak.
Do we know what he may have contributed to Jumping Jack Flash/Child Of The Moon ?
That's got to be one of the best singles of the 1960's. Sounds like there's quite a few guitars dotted around Flash including possibly a 12string electric.
The painted faces promo video for JJF might just be the best piece of film of the band. They look seriously threatening - parents look out.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: July 16, 2013 20:40
Quote
24FPS
Brian was probably torn between leaving the band and not wanting to leave the band. Wanting to be accepted by the band, and at the same time rejecting the band. If they'd babied him and put an arm around him and pulled him closer, he might have responded positively. And then he might have turned around and bit them in the ass.
If they'd babied him and put an arm around him and pulled him closer, he might have responded positively.
I don't think he ever had much of that.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 16, 2013 21:21
check out the thread "Rolling Stones manager reflects". One of their early road managers talks about his experiences working with the band in the early days - yet another person saying how unpleasant Brian Jones was.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: July 17, 2013 00:16
Quote
ashQuote
His Majesty
No there's more to him than just No Expectations during Beggars Banquet sessions, we have 10 or so studio tracks featuring him. forward to the R&R Circus and Let It Bleed sessions and he seems to have withdrawn even further.
The painted faces promo video for JJF might just be the best piece of film of the band. They look seriously threatening - parents look out.
I laugh when I see that video because Bill looks the most spectral of all. His unconventional looks contribute to the 'ugly' look of the band.
Another great reason to watch the promo version on YouTube is the outro funky organ piece is extended and goes on much longer than the single.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 00:18 by 24FPS.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 17, 2013 00:28
Quote
2000 LYFH
Was the Redlands sessions only one day and why did they not meet in the recording studio?
The spring 1969 Michael Cooper photos appear to be from the same day.
The band often gathered together to play/rehearse/record together outside of the studio. Redlands, Morden studio and from circa September 1968 their own rehearsal studio at Bermondsey Street were all used during 1968 - 1969.
Why Brian would be there is simple, he was still a member of the band.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 17, 2013 00:33
Quote
ash
That's true but of the tracks you list only No Expectations and the possibility of him contributing acoustic and harmonica to Parachute Woman really stand out as something special to my mind. His mellotron part on We Love You for instance is stunning and essential. I'm not sure how much we'd miss him on the other tracks and i'm sure Mick and Keith could have come up with something in his absence. Those tracks are already strong. His earlier contributions are more game-changing so to speak.
Do we know what he may have contributed to Jumping Jack Flash/Child Of The Moon ?
That's got to be one of the best singles of the 1960's. Sounds like there's quite a few guitars dotted around Flash including possibly a 12string electric.
The painted faces promo video for JJF might just be the best piece of film of the band. They look seriously threatening - parents look out.
Gotcha.
He is supposed to have played guitar on Jumpin' Jack Flash, but which guitar(s) on the track were him remain unknown really. It is certain that he played soprano saxophone on Child of the Moon.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
SilverBlanket
()
Date: July 17, 2013 01:21
In Bill Wymans Rolling with the stones, it states that Brian did play guitar on the released track, and that Jimmy Miller sang backing vocals.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
Jayce
()
Date: July 17, 2013 05:57
I find the Brian Jones story to be such a sad one. I often think of Keith Moon's decline in the same way, for Moon's musical decline was also so apparent. Yet, Moon seemed to have a genuine desire to live, and was, apparently, making real attempts to clean himself up. He, like Brian, seemed to be a deeply troubled man.
While Moon the man certainly has his detractors, he has so many admirers and he brought so much joy to his fans. Brian Jones the man, in contrast, has few people who have much positive to say about him. The musician is a giant, and made so many incredible contributions to music. But, sad to say, them man seems to have few admirers.
One other similarity between Keith Moon and Brian Jones: I have never known of any other band members who had such a marked impact on their band's sound -- and when they left, the music of their bands was never the same. In Moon's case, the Who's music never again reached the great heights it had with him. The Stones certainly made fantastic, and some would say better, music after Brian left the picture. However, they never again played anything like they played when he was such a driving force for them. In my opinion, like Moon, he had that great an impact.
While Moon the man certainly has his detractors, he has so many admirers and he brought so much joy to his fans. Brian Jones the man, in contrast, has few people who have much positive to say about him. The musician is a giant, and made so many incredible contributions to music. But, sad to say, them man seems to have few admirers.
One other similarity between Keith Moon and Brian Jones: I have never known of any other band members who had such a marked impact on their band's sound -- and when they left, the music of their bands was never the same. In Moon's case, the Who's music never again reached the great heights it had with him. The Stones certainly made fantastic, and some would say better, music after Brian left the picture. However, they never again played anything like they played when he was such a driving force for them. In my opinion, like Moon, he had that great an impact.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: July 17, 2013 07:38
Moon was a phenomena, a pyrotechnic force of nature. I can't think of anything quite like him in rock or any other musical genre. Brian was a pocket genius who must have suffered from ADD, because he couldn't settle on any one thing and be great at it. He skimmed over instruments, successfully for a while. And yet there's a mystery about him, like you have a hard time thinking of him surviving outside the protective bubble of the 60s, like Jimi barely did. Brian was in deep trouble and needed real help. Keith tried to right his ship, but he too wasn't able to.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: July 17, 2013 08:53
Quote
Big Al
Brian's contributions to the Let It Bleed album are known to most: autoharp on You Got The Silver and 'percussion' of some description on Midnight Rambler. Perhaps not quite so well known is the fact that he was also partially present during the recording of You Can't Always Get What You Want. What I have often been curious to know, is whether Brian could have had any involvement or presence during the recording of other tracks on the album in question. Does anyone have any knowledge or theories?
Big Al - I haven't visited iorr in awhile, but came here tonight to post a question about Brian Jones
and Let It Bleed -- and here's your thread. Must be in the air somehow!
Anyway, was just listening to Let It Bleed with headphones, and when Monkey Man came on I wondered about
the possibility of Brian on that song. Why? Well, first the mellotron, or vibes, or whatever the hell it
is playing under and around Nicky Hopkins piano, as if a ghost track was laid down on vibes or whatever,
and Nicky later fleshed it out, but the ghost track was left in.
Caveat: I have mixed feeling about Brian, and great appreciation for him musically, but I don't muse
on Brian all that often, because I usually have other things to think about, even when thinking about the
Rolling Stones. So, I'm just making the point that I'm not a Brian revisionist
But then there's something, well...Brian-y about the song. I know, I know - it's the LEAST Brian-y song ever,
right? But hear me out: Monkey Man, which I love, is a super-complex musically layered song. It's also quite
Musical; im fact, almost symphonic in its complexities and contradictions. I mean, it tears shit up, no doubt - but
it has a level of musicality to it that the others would ascend to shortly (Keith was just arriving there, and
Jimmy Miller), but I am going to make a bold statement and say: I think Brian Jones may have played on Monkey
Man, and had something to do with its overall character. I'm not asserting this with steadfast certainty. but
I wandered over to iorr to toss out that hypothesis tonight.
It's musically almost like the final rising up up Brian vs Keith. Sort of an epic clash of the titans song -- with
Keith ethos dominating ultimately. The Brian contribution (or possibly it was only influence--direct or indirect)
is weaker and quieter than Keith's killer shit, certainly, but I think it may be there.
I mean...the meandering interlude in the middle of "Monkey Man" ain't Keith. The soaring vibe, the intent, the freedom,
the idealism -- none of that's Keith. And, yeah, Mick and Keith then violently wretch all over it, and grind it
into the beautifully fetid dreck -- this internal conflict, integral to this song's profundity, power, and
irreverance -- very Keith [and, of course, Mick] but something very Brian this way goes.
I love this thread and can't believe it's here right now, excatly when I was thinking of Brian in the context of Let
It Bleed. Thanks, Al. There are too many comments people have made for which I wish I could hit a Like button [man,
have we ever goten lazy!]. I remember reading someone several years ago claiming Brian is all over Let It Bleed, and
it sort of annoyed me, because this is my favorite Stones' album and I've heard it a trillion times, and I thought it
was just a Brian zealot doing his Brian zealot thing [could have been], but---as said---tonight I was stunned suddenly to
hear Brian in one of the least likely places: lurking in Monkey Man.
I think it was 24FPS who quoted His Majesty as saying the following:
"if Brian had made a decent contribution i
feel sure the band would have used it regardless
of how they felt about him,"
I have to say, although I agree with 95% of what people are saying (Ash, I don't think we know each other, but I
appreciate what you've written here), I don't agree with that statement, with all due respect, His Majesty. you've read
LIFE. And it's what? 42 years after Brian's death that KR was spewing the vitriol that he was about Brian? He's an emotional
and a passionate guy. And, if LIFE is any indication, Keith does hold a grudge. Some of the most bitter, fresh,
and mouldering grudges I've ever bourne witness to.
So, no, I can't see Keith---despite his sense of valor that has played itself out honorably, over the years---"rising above
it" and leaving Brian in and giving him credit if Brian's playing had merited it. Keith bled all over this record, going
back in, late at night, to futz around, and I think if there was anything of Brian's worth keeping Keith there's about
exactly a 50/50 chance he would have left good stuff in (and, simply, out of pique and spite), dubbed-over and wiped out
other shit that was worthy. And not given credit for any of it.
Possibly--given how irrationally contemptuous he still seemed about Brian, in 2011, in LIFE---not necessarily even fully
conscious of what was Brian. He saw Brian as so worthless by then. How could be give him credit...?
btw...someone indicated that KR was wasted in the sessions fo Let It Bleed, and that was one of the few statements in this
thread that I'm not sure is quite accurate. There were moments, of course, but he wasn't the nodding-out junkie of a
handful of years hence, by any stretch.
- swiss
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 09:24 by swiss.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
Thrylan
()
Date: July 17, 2013 11:02
Hmmmmmm......I say no. Why not credit him?. Secondly, if you pay attention to One Plus One, Keith is seemingly the only one who not only pays attention to, but actually seems to be taking care of him. At one point, he lights a cigarette, and hands it to him. Possibly guilt over the Anita thing but it looks genuine.
During the tour, there were Taylorites running amok, now Jonesists are dominating the board. Just for the record, Ronnie has been in the band nearly 3times as long as both combined.
During the tour, there were Taylorites running amok, now Jonesists are dominating the board. Just for the record, Ronnie has been in the band nearly 3times as long as both combined.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
sonomastone
()
Date: July 17, 2013 11:44
Quote
Thrylan
Hmmmmmm......I say no. Why not credit him?. Secondly, if you pay attention to One Plus One, Keith is seemingly the only one who not only pays attention to, but actually seems to be taking care of him. At one point, he lights a cigarette, and hands it to him. Possibly guilt over the Anita thing but it looks genuine.
During the tour, there were Taylorites running amok, now Jonesists are dominating the board. Just for the record, Ronnie has been in the band nearly 3times as long as both combined.
That's funny
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
LQ1977
()
Date: July 17, 2013 12:21
As what I call a "Brian girl" I really appreciate this thread, reading posts from people much more knowledgeable than me. I have often thought "why does not Brian get the credit he deserves from the Stones?" and Keith´s statements about him in "Life" truly saddens me. Yes, Brian definitely had "ugly" sides and was a difficult man to be around, which we understand made it hard for the ones around him to like him, but he cannot have been all bad, all the time?
I read Bill´s "Stone alone" when it was released and also later, and instantly had much sympathy for Brian. I was in my early teens then. Bill gave him a really touching support also in "Rolling with the Stones". Brian did not lead an easy life and had problems with his mental state of mind (not that I am expert in this field...). If it had been today he would be in therapy, proper rehab, been given a diagnosis etc.
Very interesting thread!
I read Bill´s "Stone alone" when it was released and also later, and instantly had much sympathy for Brian. I was in my early teens then. Bill gave him a really touching support also in "Rolling with the Stones". Brian did not lead an easy life and had problems with his mental state of mind (not that I am expert in this field...). If it had been today he would be in therapy, proper rehab, been given a diagnosis etc.
Very interesting thread!
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 17, 2013 13:38
Quote
swissQuote
Big Al
btw...someone indicated that KR was wasted in the sessions fo Let It Bleed, and that was one of the few statements in this
thread that I'm not sure is quite accurate. There were moments, of course, but he wasn't the nodding-out junkie of a
handful of years hence, by any stretch.
- swiss
I think that was me. Obviously i don't know for sure but i think The Dirty Mac band (Rock 'n' Roll Circus) had more in common than just being fabulous musicians from great bands. Lennon was certainly using smack at this time. The following month he's well messed up as the Get Back session tapes prove. I think a lot of the musicians began dabbling during late 1968 including Keith. When i said he was wasted i just meant that he was using, i didn't mean he was "unable to function" wasted. Clearly his songwriting and playing are close to peak so he could get away with being a smack head. He's still more than got his shit together at this point and unlike John and Yoko he had some good connections. His only problem was the police as he likes to say.
As far as Brian goes he clearly didn't have his shit together and in terms of him as a person there seems to be an endless and ever increasing list of people who were less than impressed by his behaviour and i'm putting it mildly. As i noted above "check out the thread "Rolling Stones manager reflects". One of their early road managers talks recently about his experiences working with the band in the early days - yet another person saying how unpleasant Brian Jones was." He actually describes holding Brian over an 11th floor balcony by his clothes. OK that's not too cool (!) but Brian seems to have had that effect on people. I assume he behaved better when in the company of Beatles as they've always been nice about him. I understand Bill's sympathy for him (both victims of the Mick/Keith power axis) but even 40 plus years later while acknowledging Brian's great talent Keith still has a very low opinion of him as a person. So does Charlie. The passing of time hasn't softened their hearts. They practically lived with him every second for nearly 7 years. Who are we to believe ?
I really wouldn't be surprised if Brian died because he finally pissed the wrong person off who wasn't gonna take it from an effeminate rich rock star dandy. I am not saying that's right (it is wrong morally and legally) but i can honestly imagine that scenario. I find it hard to believe he drowned just like that unless he had a seizure or similar. He wasn't particularly drunk or stoned or tripping was he ?
I have wondered whether Brian had something like Asperger's - complete speculation but the anecdotal evidence doesn't rule that out. I work with people with Asperger's/mental health/disabled issues. Sometimes when out and about we run the risk of getting in trouble even nearly assaulted because someone takes offence to the perceived "rudeness" or unempathic behaviour. It can be hard work. It's a bit of a cliche but conditions like that sometimes go hand in hand with a special talent/ability. Clearly that's no diagnosis but i have wondered if that could be a part of who Brian was. Maybe he was just a mean,violent git.i don't know but that it was many people say. You have to work to earn a reputation.
Keith Moon was mentioned earlier. We wont see the likes of him again. We have Ritalin and other such drugs !
An early death often leads to a sympathetic reaction particularly in the case of celebrities. I don't doubt Brian was badly treated but boy did he seem able to dish it out. Like i said,very few people who knew him who have spoken have much nice stuff to say about him. Only John,Paul,George and Pete Townshend spring to mind and you would behave with them wouldn't you? That really says it all. We all do things we're not proud of but he looks like having been a bit of a master at this, repeatedly year after year.
The fact that we are still talking about him 44 years since he died is testament to the power and impact of the music he gave us. I'm really grateful for that. I'm willing to bet Mick and Keith are too despite everything else that went down.
Now which guitar on Jumping Jack Flash is Brian ?
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 17, 2013 14:20
I personally don't think Brian plays any substantial guitar part that is clearly audible on Jumpin' Jack Flash. Like his sitar on Street Fighting Man, I think he played something on the early tape machine take and it's buried deep within the sound.
I love Keith's 1967 - 1968 guitar playing and all of the distinctive things about the guitars on Jumpin' Jack Flash can be found in other examples of Keith's guitar playing from that time period.
Just what I think though.
...
Bill plays the vibraphone on Monkey Man and a very good job he did too.
There is a small group of Brian Jones fans that think the credits on Let It Bleed are not true, that Brian plays on it a lot more than credited. It is my opinion that those people are just very deluded. These same people tend to have further conspiracy like thinking about credits for a whole number of songs.
I still maintain that had Brian contributed good things that worked for the tracks those contributions would have been used. They did keep a basic autoharp part for You Got The Silver when they didn't have to.
We are only looking at about a 4 month window of time for Brian to have been in the studio to contribute to Let It Bleed. Include the time out Brian had when he went in to Priory clinic again in March 1969 and the break in sessions during April.
In 1967 and 1968 he was simply around more and still had his distinctive touch, forward to 1969 and everything that was wrong seems to be exaggerated to an unbearable degree. Thus, less turning up, less contributions, less time for him to be around for takes that actually made it to the album.
It's all about being there when the definitive album versions were made and having something good to contribute to them either on basic backing track or as overdubs.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 14:34 by His Majesty.
I love Keith's 1967 - 1968 guitar playing and all of the distinctive things about the guitars on Jumpin' Jack Flash can be found in other examples of Keith's guitar playing from that time period.
Just what I think though.
...
Bill plays the vibraphone on Monkey Man and a very good job he did too.
There is a small group of Brian Jones fans that think the credits on Let It Bleed are not true, that Brian plays on it a lot more than credited. It is my opinion that those people are just very deluded. These same people tend to have further conspiracy like thinking about credits for a whole number of songs.
I still maintain that had Brian contributed good things that worked for the tracks those contributions would have been used. They did keep a basic autoharp part for You Got The Silver when they didn't have to.
We are only looking at about a 4 month window of time for Brian to have been in the studio to contribute to Let It Bleed. Include the time out Brian had when he went in to Priory clinic again in March 1969 and the break in sessions during April.
In 1967 and 1968 he was simply around more and still had his distinctive touch, forward to 1969 and everything that was wrong seems to be exaggerated to an unbearable degree. Thus, less turning up, less contributions, less time for him to be around for takes that actually made it to the album.
It's all about being there when the definitive album versions were made and having something good to contribute to them either on basic backing track or as overdubs.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 14:34 by His Majesty.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 17, 2013 14:47
Quote
His Majesty
There is a small group of Brian Jones fans that think the credits on Let It Bleed are not true, that Brian plays on it a lot more than credited. It is my opinion that those people are just very deluded. These same people tend to have further conspiracy like thinking about credits for a whole number of songs.
I still maintain that had Brian contributed good things that worked for the tracks those contributions would have been used. They did keep a basic autoharp part for You Got The Silver when they didn't have to.
In 1967 and 1968 he was simply around more and still had his distinctive touch, forward to 1969 and everything that was wrong seems to be exaggerated to an unbearable degree. Thus, less turning up, less contributions, less time for him to be around for takes that actually made it to the album.
It's all about being there when the definitive album versions were made and having something good to contribute to them either on basic backing track or as overdubs.
I think that's pretty spot on Your Royal Highness. I'm still not sure he made a particularly notable contribution to Beggars though. I mean he's on the record in several places but you wouldn't really miss him if he wasn't save for Expectations and Keith could play that couldn't he ? It's not like trying to replace the lead guitar on Voodoo Chile (Slight Return).
I wish that 1968 NME concert survived in some form.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 17, 2013 15:03
I get that view point, but I don't think every contribution needs to be judged in such a heavy way. For example Keith could probably have played bass on the whole album and Jimmy Miller could have played all of the drums.
On Beggars Banquet there's enough contribution from Brian to make a difference. A less than ideal amount for sure, but still.
It seems most likely that Brian played the harmonica on Dear Doctor and that is a distinctive feature of the track. The sitar and tamboura on Street Fighting Man does lend it a distinctive sound that otherwise wouldn't have been there, same goes for the Mellotron flute on Jigsaw Puzzle.
It is the presence of contributions like these that give the album a unique sound and flavour and it is such things that are mostly is missing from Let It Bleed.
I find it very telling of the situation in 1969 that it is Bill who is adding such flavouring by playing vibraphone on Monkey Man and autoharp on the song Let It Bleed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 15:08 by His Majesty.
On Beggars Banquet there's enough contribution from Brian to make a difference. A less than ideal amount for sure, but still.
It seems most likely that Brian played the harmonica on Dear Doctor and that is a distinctive feature of the track. The sitar and tamboura on Street Fighting Man does lend it a distinctive sound that otherwise wouldn't have been there, same goes for the Mellotron flute on Jigsaw Puzzle.
It is the presence of contributions like these that give the album a unique sound and flavour and it is such things that are mostly is missing from Let It Bleed.
I find it very telling of the situation in 1969 that it is Bill who is adding such flavouring by playing vibraphone on Monkey Man and autoharp on the song Let It Bleed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 15:08 by His Majesty.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
ash
()
Date: July 17, 2013 16:23
Yeah i am probably being a bit harsh. I agree with what you said and that's a good point about Bill too.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: July 17, 2013 18:28
Quote
Jayce
I find the Brian Jones story to be such a sad one. I often think of Keith Moon's decline in the same way, for Moon's musical decline was also so apparent. Yet, Moon seemed to have a genuine desire to live, and was, apparently, making real attempts to clean himself up. He, like Brian, seemed to be a deeply troubled man.
While Moon the man certainly has his detractors, he has so many admirers and he brought so much joy to his fans. Brian Jones the man, in contrast, has few people who have much positive to say about him. The musician is a giant, and made so many incredible contributions to music. But, sad to say, them man seems to have few admirers.
One other similarity between Keith Moon and Brian Jones: I have never known of any other band members who had such a marked impact on their band's sound -- and when they left, the music of their bands was never the same. In Moon's case, the Who's music never again reached the great heights it had with him. The Stones certainly made fantastic, and some would say better, music after Brian left the picture. However, they never again played anything like they played when he was such a driving force for them. In my opinion, like Moon, he had that great an impact.
Interesting on your Moon comparison. I think another comparison can be made to Sid Barrett the first guitarist in Pink Floyd. He was the leading drive in the 1965 to mid 1967 years and then seemed (via too many LSD trips) to loose control and interest in his band. They bought in David Gilmore as a safety net and in the Spring of 1968 Sid was more or less forced out. Sounds a little bit like what happened to Brian. Both were leaders and then both were forced out...
Would have been interesting to see a Brian Jones and Sid Barrett collaboration!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 18:30 by 2000 LYFH.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
Thrylan
()
Date: July 17, 2013 18:36
Another thing that works against the "freeze out" conspiracy, is there are no Brian boots. Keith has indicated that he never brought a product they could try to produce. Bill wrote very little at the time, But he gets a song and a vocal, and there are a couple Bill penned boots.
Well said Her Majesty, sounds spot on to me.
Well said Her Majesty, sounds spot on to me.
Re: Brian Jones And Let It Bleed
Posted by:
blivet
()
Date: July 17, 2013 20:49
Quote
Thrylan
Another thing that works against the "freeze out" conspiracy, is there are no Brian boots. Keith has indicated that he never brought a product they could try to produce. Bill wrote very little at the time, But he gets a song and a vocal, and there are a couple Bill penned boots.
As far as I know the only recording of any song written by Brian is that Rice Krispies jingle, which is OK but hardly a pop masterpiece (and suspiciously "co-written" by the ad agency).
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