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Thank you for this great explanation. Makes a lot of sense. Dirty Work is the last Stones album I bought new on vinyl. For all it's faults, it's sonic quality was pretty good.
Everything on CD since Steel Wheels has suffered from some sort of mastering issue to my ears. And no matter how good the song, it makes it hard for me to enjoy the recording. Sad Sad Sad is a great example. And compare the Frankenstein tracks on Tattoo You to Steel Wheels... they sound like two completely different bands.
I have the Terrifying remix on vinyl and while the style sounds a little dated/cheesy, the mix/production is quite good. CD/Digital mastering must be a real art because others seem to get it right. Maybe it's important to record in digital from the start like Talking Heads and a few others did.
60's tracks on GRRR! are from 2002 remasters which are respectful of the original recordings and indeed sound pretty good. Unfortunately from Brown Sugar all tracks are from 2009 remasters which are truly disastrous from a sound quality point of view...
Sadly, nothing ever comes close to the original analogue recordings or the original vinyl releases.
The great shame today is that digital technology may at long last [probably] be good enough to capture music...
...but nobody can remember what it should sound like !
I have me a couple of those and I will confirm they are horrendous.
Excellent description. And if anyone wishes to see & hear demonstrations of "Loudness" Mastering, here's an excellent clip from youtube.
CBS CD's, in some ways, sound better than Bob Ludwig's 90's remasters or 2009 new remasters. Simply because the music on it is not compressed or loud. Even if some of them have their flaws (sound level variations on Exile, Sticky Fingers sounding too harsh and thin...) at least they respect the original dynamics. Albums such Goats Head Soup or Emotional Rescue really sound great on CBS 80's CD's.
kowalski
You can't win this battle. People on you-know-what forum are fighting for ages on this topic. Still Virgin lovers are ahead in the poll
Original CBS - 28.3%
1994 Virgin Remasters - 55.3%
2009 Remasters - 16.5%
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
They really love you,Ronnie Bob Ludwig, they really love you. 
There's no battle to be won. Just informing people that there's something else.
Bob Ludwig remasters are really good though and I understand why a majority of people praise them. Their sound is the closest to the vinyl original sound. However they lack dynamics and are already way too compressed.
Talk about your favorite band.
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GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
punkfloyd
()
Date: December 26, 2012 16:06
Got it for Christmas and noticed the a LOT of added echo/reverb on the drums on Beast of Burden, Harlem Shuffle, Mixed Emotions. Sorry if the album's mixes have been discussed already, but has anybody else noticed this?
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: December 26, 2012 17:41
I think what you are hearing is actually the brickwalling. They over-mastered everything, so that reverb/delay is actually on those tracks, just not as prominent on the original recordings. Steel Wheels is a great example of that type of work. Sad Sad Sad, on record, sounds great. Then when they crunched it for CD it took all the life out of it. The louder you make the track, the less nuanced the production elements... Loud becomes louder, and subtle becomes 'normal'. ZERO dynamics.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
punkfloyd
()
Date: December 26, 2012 17:51
Quote
flacnvinyl
I think what you are hearing is actually the brickwalling. They over-mastered everything, so that reverb/delay is actually on those tracks, just not as prominent on the original recordings. Steel Wheels is a great example of that type of work. Sad Sad Sad, on record, sounds great. Then when they crunched it for CD it took all the life out of it. The louder you make the track, the less nuanced the production elements... Loud becomes louder, and subtle becomes 'normal'. ZERO dynamics.
Thank you for this great explanation. Makes a lot of sense. Dirty Work is the last Stones album I bought new on vinyl. For all it's faults, it's sonic quality was pretty good.
Everything on CD since Steel Wheels has suffered from some sort of mastering issue to my ears. And no matter how good the song, it makes it hard for me to enjoy the recording. Sad Sad Sad is a great example. And compare the Frankenstein tracks on Tattoo You to Steel Wheels... they sound like two completely different bands.
I have the Terrifying remix on vinyl and while the style sounds a little dated/cheesy, the mix/production is quite good. CD/Digital mastering must be a real art because others seem to get it right. Maybe it's important to record in digital from the start like Talking Heads and a few others did.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
hot stuff
()
Date: December 26, 2012 18:07
Ruby Tuesday sounds much better on Grrr..
When they sing---Goodbye Ruby Tuesday, who could hand a name on you....etc.
It sounds a lot better then any version i have ever heard before...
Please play it and let me know if you hear what i hear?? Thanks..
When they sing---Goodbye Ruby Tuesday, who could hand a name on you....etc.
It sounds a lot better then any version i have ever heard before...
Please play it and let me know if you hear what i hear?? Thanks..
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
hot stuff
()
Date: December 26, 2012 18:12
Hang--a name on you!!
Sorry i wrote hand..
Sorry i wrote hand..
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
midimannz
()
Date: December 26, 2012 21:29
I just got the BluRay Grrrr
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: December 27, 2012 03:45
Quote
flacnvinyl
I think what you are hearing is actually the brickwalling. They over-mastered everything, so that reverb/delay is actually on those tracks, just not as prominent on the original recordings. Steel Wheels is a great example of that type of work. Sad Sad Sad, on record, sounds great. Then when they crunched it for CD it took all the life out of it. The louder you make the track, the less nuanced the production elements... Loud becomes louder, and subtle becomes 'normal'. ZERO dynamics.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: December 27, 2012 03:52
Quote
hot stuff
Ruby Tuesday sounds much better on Grrr..
When they sing---Goodbye Ruby Tuesday, who could hand a name on you....etc.
It sounds a lot better then any version i have ever heard before...
Please play it and let me know if you hear what i hear?? Thanks..
60's tracks on GRRR! are from 2002 remasters which are respectful of the original recordings and indeed sound pretty good. Unfortunately from Brown Sugar all tracks are from 2009 remasters which are truly disastrous from a sound quality point of view...
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 27, 2012 12:00
Quote
flacnvinyl
I think what you are hearing is actually the brickwalling. They over-mastered everything, so that reverb/delay is actually on those tracks, just not as prominent on the original recordings. Steel Wheels is a great example of that type of work. Sad Sad Sad, on record, sounds great. Then when they crunched it for CD it took all the life out of it. The louder you make the track, the less nuanced the production elements... Loud becomes louder, and subtle becomes 'normal'. ZERO dynamics.
Sadly, nothing ever comes close to the original analogue recordings or the original vinyl releases.
The great shame today is that digital technology may at long last [probably] be good enough to capture music...
...but nobody can remember what it should sound like !
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: December 27, 2012 13:12
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 27, 2012 13:35
The main problem today is that commercially released music is produced for playback on the now dominant ipod [or similar] based hardware, which 30 years of awful CD sound have made us more than happy to accept as "High Fidelity".
What we actually get these days is an extremely clear reproduction... of the very little musical information which manages to survive the production and mastering process !
Like flac said, all the compression and "brick wall" processing destroys any natural dynamics and subtlety in the recording. There's no depth or air . Recorded music just doesn't "breathe" any more.
Less than adequate digital recording and processing techniques distort music in a very sinister way...by failing to capture half the musical information heard by the microphone !
You can't hear what's missing, but your ear knows something's not right .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-27 13:42 by Spud.
What we actually get these days is an extremely clear reproduction... of the very little musical information which manages to survive the production and mastering process !
Like flac said, all the compression and "brick wall" processing destroys any natural dynamics and subtlety in the recording. There's no depth or air . Recorded music just doesn't "breathe" any more.
Less than adequate digital recording and processing techniques distort music in a very sinister way...by failing to capture half the musical information heard by the microphone !
You can't hear what's missing, but your ear knows something's not right .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-12-27 13:42 by Spud.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: December 27, 2012 15:57
Quote
tomcasagranda
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
I have me a couple of those and I will confirm they are horrendous.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 27, 2012 17:26
I have a name for whole sorry story of recorded music since the mid eighties
.... Digitally Disastered !
.... Digitally Disastered !
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: December 27, 2012 17:28
Thankfully there are a few bands that actually care about their sound.. Wilco, Radiohead, Tame Impala (my favorite of the new ones) but it is a shame that bands like the Stones are ok with the modern mastering techniques. Even the bootleg series was mastered too loud. Compare Still Life on vinyl to Leeds 82. Leeds COULD sound superior but is so compressed that when the kick or snare hit, it sucks the life out of the guitars.
So many good comments on this thread. We're all preaching at the choir, but I give thanks for that.
So many good comments on this thread. We're all preaching at the choir, but I give thanks for that.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 27, 2012 17:44
I have a theory that musicians are in some ways the least well placed to judge the quality of recorded music reproduction.
They get off on playing and making the music. They don't necessarily need or look for the same buzz when listening to it.
That said, some have noticed the shortcomings of CD and Digital recording.
Neil Young and Ry Cooder amongst the best known.
Ry Cooder was one of the first well known musicians to notice that someting was "not right" with digital back in the early 80s when recording Bop Til You Drop.
He noticed that the instruments all sounded as though they were recorded in a vacuum. He also noted that it was somehow harder to sing or play in tune and in time with a digital recording.
Digital recording technology has improved in leaps and bounds since then...but I think we've forgotten what we're trying to acheive and how good recoded music can sound when we do get it right.
They get off on playing and making the music. They don't necessarily need or look for the same buzz when listening to it.
That said, some have noticed the shortcomings of CD and Digital recording.
Neil Young and Ry Cooder amongst the best known.
Ry Cooder was one of the first well known musicians to notice that someting was "not right" with digital back in the early 80s when recording Bop Til You Drop.
He noticed that the instruments all sounded as though they were recorded in a vacuum. He also noted that it was somehow harder to sing or play in tune and in time with a digital recording.
Digital recording technology has improved in leaps and bounds since then...but I think we've forgotten what we're trying to acheive and how good recoded music can sound when we do get it right.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
hoopsmccann
()
Date: December 27, 2012 19:34
Quote
flacnvinyl
I think what you are hearing is actually the brickwalling. They over-mastered everything, so that reverb/delay is actually on those tracks, just not as prominent on the original recordings. Steel Wheels is a great example of that type of work. Sad Sad Sad, on record, sounds great. Then when they crunched it for CD it took all the life out of it. The louder you make the track, the less nuanced the production elements... Loud becomes louder, and subtle becomes 'normal'. ZERO dynamics.
Excellent description. And if anyone wishes to see & hear demonstrations of "Loudness" Mastering, here's an excellent clip from youtube.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
drbryant
()
Date: December 27, 2012 22:44
This is all unfortunately true. From Sticky Fingers on, an original vinyl sounds better than all of the available CD's. There are some great sounding SHM-SACD's from Japan, directly transferred from the original tapes, but they are so overpriced, that I can't really recommend them.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: December 28, 2012 02:22
Quote
tomcasagranda
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
CBS CD's, in some ways, sound better than Bob Ludwig's 90's remasters or 2009 new remasters. Simply because the music on it is not compressed or loud. Even if some of them have their flaws (sound level variations on Exile, Sticky Fingers sounding too harsh and thin...) at least they respect the original dynamics. Albums such Goats Head Soup or Emotional Rescue really sound great on CBS 80's CD's.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 28, 2012 06:34
Sad Sad Sad doesn't sound bad becuase of brickwalling. It sounds bad because it sucks as a Stones song. And there is no vinyl to compare Steel Wheels to because it was the first DDD Stones recording.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: December 28, 2012 06:44
Just because it is digital through the whole process doesn't mean you can't compare vinyl to CD... vinyl has essentially limitless sampling. So if the studio sessions were recorded at 192kHz 24bit, then that is what we hear on the vinyl. CD, however, always has a rate of 44.1/16bit. So yes, the vinyl sounds infinitely better than the CD. It breathes and the guitars in particular benefit from the added detail. As a 12-year-old kid I could tell the difference. My first thought was 'why are the guitars softer'. Only later did I understand what had happened.
Btw, I am not a musician, just an engineer.
Btw, I am not a musician, just an engineer.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
ironbelly
()
Date: December 28, 2012 09:41
Quote
kowalskiQuote
tomcasagranda
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
CBS CD's, in some ways, sound better than Bob Ludwig's 90's remasters or 2009 new remasters. Simply because the music on it is not compressed or loud. Even if some of them have their flaws (sound level variations on Exile, Sticky Fingers sounding too harsh and thin...) at least they respect the original dynamics. Albums such Goats Head Soup or Emotional Rescue really sound great on CBS 80's CD's.
kowalski
You can't win this battle. People on you-know-what forum are fighting for ages on this topic. Still Virgin lovers are ahead in the poll
Original CBS - 28.3%
1994 Virgin Remasters - 55.3%
2009 Remasters - 16.5%
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
They really love you,
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
DoomandGloom
()
Date: December 28, 2012 11:04
I agree, I much prefer Greg Calbi's understanding of the original dynamics to any other re-mastered versions. This is especially true for "Exile", I hated last year's remaster and thought Ludwigs' 1994 version to be digging for the vocal.Quote
kowalskiQuote
tomcasagranda
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
CBS CD's, in some ways, sound better than Bob Ludwig's 90's remasters or 2009 new remasters. Simply because the music on it is not compressed or loud. Even if some of them have their flaws (sound level variations on Exile, Sticky Fingers sounding too harsh and thin...) at least they respect the original dynamics. Albums such Goats Head Soup or Emotional Rescue really sound great on CBS 80's CD's.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 28, 2012 11:20
Last year's Exile remaster was disappointing. [If that's the right word when you knew what was coming ;^) ]
I bought the vinyl in foolish hope. No depth, no air, no feeling, no real low end. [The upright bass for example soungs like it's sampled !]
I bought the vinyl in foolish hope. No depth, no air, no feeling, no real low end. [The upright bass for example soungs like it's sampled !]
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: December 28, 2012 15:42
Quote
ironbellyQuote
kowalskiQuote
tomcasagranda
Some people, however, don't remember the horrendous direct-from-tape CDs that CBS had of the Stones; or, worse still, the original ABKCO cds.
CBS CD's, in some ways, sound better than Bob Ludwig's 90's remasters or 2009 new remasters. Simply because the music on it is not compressed or loud. Even if some of them have their flaws (sound level variations on Exile, Sticky Fingers sounding too harsh and thin...) at least they respect the original dynamics. Albums such Goats Head Soup or Emotional Rescue really sound great on CBS 80's CD's.
kowalski
You can't win this battle. People on you-know-what forum are fighting for ages on this topic. Still Virgin lovers are ahead in the poll
Original CBS - 28.3%
1994 Virgin Remasters - 55.3%
2009 Remasters - 16.5%
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]
They really love you,RonnieBob Ludwig, they really love you.
There's no battle to be won. Just informing people that there's something else.
Bob Ludwig remasters are really good though and I understand why a majority of people praise them. Their sound is the closest to the vinyl original sound. However they lack dynamics and are already way too compressed.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 28, 2012 16:18
A lot depends on the playback equipment.
Folks with less forgiving and true "Hi Fidelity" kit are likely to favour different masterings to those listening via portable device docking stations or multi channel audio systems optimised for AV.
There's a whole other topic here...but what we lack today is a high quality mass market medium for music playback.
Folks ask what's killed music. The industry has. [CD stuck the first knife in ].
Pirating wouldn't be such a problem either if the industry had a product to sell which was audibly far superior to MP3 files blagged off the net !
[Mind you...few people these days have equipment which would reveal the difference ...so it's a big vicious circle ! ]
Folks with less forgiving and true "Hi Fidelity" kit are likely to favour different masterings to those listening via portable device docking stations or multi channel audio systems optimised for AV.
There's a whole other topic here...but what we lack today is a high quality mass market medium for music playback.
Folks ask what's killed music. The industry has. [CD stuck the first knife in ].
Pirating wouldn't be such a problem either if the industry had a product to sell which was audibly far superior to MP3 files blagged off the net !
[Mind you...few people these days have equipment which would reveal the difference ...so it's a big vicious circle ! ]
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: December 28, 2012 16:51
What possibly killed the music industry is the degradation (deterioration?) of music quality. If you compare vinyl to CD and then CD to mp3, you realize how bad it has become in only 20 years. If you add to this the current mastering trends which has everything compressed, limited and brickwalled to a point that at the end everything sounds the same and is boring to death after a few listenings, there's no need to wonder why people don't buy anymore music.
I hate to say it, but recent Stones releases are among the worst things I've ever heard, sound quality wise. One good example is the Stones Archive series. While their official release was very welcomed, these shows sound awful on a decent audio system. There's no definition of anything, just a continuous blast that makes every song sounds the same (should it be a rocker or a slower song) and everything's so static and flat...
I hate to say it, but recent Stones releases are among the worst things I've ever heard, sound quality wise. One good example is the Stones Archive series. While their official release was very welcomed, these shows sound awful on a decent audio system. There's no definition of anything, just a continuous blast that makes every song sounds the same (should it be a rocker or a slower song) and everything's so static and flat...
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: December 28, 2012 18:47
@Kowalski - I bought A Bigger Bang on vinyl in the hopes of hearing it with less mastering. No luck. Rough Justice would be much more powerful with less crunchy compression. ONNYA needs to be completely remixed. Beautiful guitars buried in the background, rhythm guitar buried..
Frustrating when you have a properly calibrated system and a treated room. I find that I am in the minority.
Frustrating when you have a properly calibrated system and a treated room. I find that I am in the minority.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 28, 2012 18:54
Kowalski, when something has been remastered (or mastered) for iTunes is that specific for that only or is it a general (re)mastering for mp3 (like what you'd get via Amazon or somewhere else as well)? Recently the Led Zeppelin catalogue was remastered for iTunes - I'm guessing it's brickwalled - and is only available through iTunes, no where else.
Re: GRRR! song mixes
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: December 28, 2012 19:09
CDs didn't kill the music. There were crappily produced LPs before CDs. I remember in the early 70s they started manufacturing them so cheaply that you could almost bend them in half like a flexidisc. CDs are fantastic if they are done properly. My German made early Stones CDs are great, and much better than LPs I heard. And the 2002 ABKCO SACD remasters are great. There were Hendrix CDs that used the Sonic No Noise solutions that still sound good. It's not the format, it's the formatter that makes a CD good or bad.
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