Tell Me :
Talk
So true! It's also difficult not to change tempo at the song's changes, like before the chorus, the solo and so on - it is very difficult for a drummer to focus on the click track and slow down when everyone around him is trying to boost the song.
That's great but the click track theories have been around since the Steel Wheels tour since that tour officially kicked off the "Vegas era." Last time I checked Bill was also with them on that tour.
The point of this thread is that no one has had any true, substantial evidence of a click track being used. The only smoking gun people thought they had was the BPM printed on each set list. I have already disproven those tempos with what they actually play on stage. I have also disproven that Chuck's count-ins also do not match the tempos as outlined in the setlists. The link that connects that setlist with the belief that they use click tracks on stage has been broken.
I have already disproved above that Chuck's countoffs are way off even as they begin a song. Each video in my earlier post clearly shows Chuck counting off and the band going directly into a faster tempo than what the song has officially listed as its BPM. There was a more than a 5% difference which according to you is more than enough to discount the click track/metronome theory:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 00:01 by Justin.
Sorry. I've been out all day. I'll look for where I read that they use a click to start the songs on stage.
How long have you been looking at this place!!????!!!??? This is something that is a mystery for some, a challenge for others and downright interesting for the rest! Well OK then there's your lot, who doesn't care.
It beats silly 50 year anniversary threads and the overindulgent SuperLite thread.
Star Wars: The Click Track Years
Yeah! Especially with that THX Sound!
The evidence is that I have wittnessed it myself, and that it has been explained to me by the guys at the lighting desk how it worked. Set BPM's at selected tracks where used for the count-off to synch the lighting and effects with the music pace. And to add, this is not only with the Stones, about each and every big band who has toured in the last decade using a click track just for that, and I have wittnessed that myself on various concerts and festivals.
The problem is that the BPM's measured by you do not match the BPM's on the set list, and that's something I don't understand. The only explanation I have is that these setlist are just props for fans, and not used by the band or crew. On most gigs I have worked there wheren't any setlists with this kind of information, but there where roll-calls or crew-books that described exactly what was needed and going on. I can not imagine the back-up singers for the Stones looking at a set list like this to find out whether they sing on or off stage, for example.
Mathijs
Let us be very clear: You witnessed someone explaining to you how the BPM is related to the lighting and effects at a show. You can confirm that a conversation occurred between you and a member of the crew. That is all. But you did NOT witness any of the following:
1) The actual sound of the click track going
2) See anyone actually turn on the click track
3) See anyone on stage, listen for the click track
Can you provide me ANY video where you see Chuck, or Charlie, or Keith, or Ronnie or Mick actually listening to a click track? I have provided in this thread countless videos where we do not see any member--including Chuck--referencing a metronom/click-track as a tempo guide for a song neither in the beginning or the middle of a song.
Mathijs, I have respected your posts for many years but this right here is just hilarious. A prop setlist? A few members on this thread claim to have seen this setlist posted on Chuck's keyboard. Are you implying that they print up a separate setlist for him and they print up a fake set lists as a a prop on the off chance that a fan happens to steal a copy?? Do you seriously think there is some kind of conspiracy here?
I know it's hard to re-evaluate the reality that you've believed for so long but I think it's becoming clear here that you are going to very extreme lengths to keep this myth going for the sake of not wanting to be wrong.
First, as I now have stated multiple times: it's only Chuck who has directions from a click-track. None of the other bandmembers see or hear a click-track as far as I am aware. Second, there is no sound of a click-track. I have never ever heard a sound of a click track on any stage I have been on. When click-tracks are used throughout a song, it is through headphones or in-ears. When a CT is used for a count-off it is visual: a blinking led. The entire show is pre-programmed at both monitor mixer, side-fills, main stage PA and lighting. All is automated: when the band start a certain song, all volume levels, tracks, lighting program etc. are chosen and set automatically, and then adjusted by hand by the mixer etc according to actual situation. For the lighting and effects, all is programmed to fit the song, and all is programmed to a pre-determined beat, which then can be altered according to the actual beat.
No, no conspiricy, but I am trying to get an explanation why the BPM's on the setlist are so different to the actual BPM's. And again, we know that the BPM's for the tracks started by Richards are only indications: on a good night he starts IORR at 140, on a bad night at 110. What I don't understand is why songs that are counted off by Chuck have such different tempi. A possible explanation could be, I am not sure, is that the setlist as we have is not used by the crew at all. One indication I personally have is that important information like when the BU singers are on stage is not communicated by such simple setlist, but by pre-determined and communicated scripts. Another example is that the lighting personal does not use these setlists at all. They get informed about the set the day before, and then start programming the light show, loading all settings that have been programmed months before.
I know that the Stones are much looser than many other bands, and it could be that the BPM's really just are indications. I was at the mixing desk during a Coldplay concert, and there just basically EVERYTHING was pre-set. In fact, the band was playing along a pre-recorded tape, and evything from visuals to effects to PA settings was pre-programmed. That show really was one push on the button and go.
Mathijs
Only excuse that can be accpted is he was entertaining Ms Paltrow ...
C
haha that'd be a nice little discovery!
But alas, there was one song that the BPM on the setlist matched with my tracking: "Sympathy For The Devil." Each version of the song clocked in exactly at 109 BPM right on the dot--exactly as listed on the setlists. And that should be of no surprise to anyone since it is very clear that they are using the exact same drum loop throughout that song. So with that, we do have confirmation that my tracking procedure captured the BPM's accurately.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 20:59 by Justin.
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Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
gwen
()
Date: July 15, 2012 13:44
Quote
Mathijs
And last, for many musicians it actually is quite difficult to play along a click-track, or even translate a count-off properly. Especially in a live setting you tend to play faster than what is counted off -100 BPM easily becomes 104, 105 after the first few bars.
So true! It's also difficult not to change tempo at the song's changes, like before the chorus, the solo and so on - it is very difficult for a drummer to focus on the click track and slow down when everyone around him is trying to boost the song.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: July 15, 2012 14:03
Thanks for the "Bassplayer" link, Paris Locksmith. Interesting read.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Vocalion
()
Date: July 15, 2012 15:01
Great Thread!
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
audun-eg
()
Date: July 15, 2012 16:12
If you find it interesting, Justin, it would have been fun to have the same analyizis of the studio recording of HTW. Very evident change in tempo from start to end of the song. 
[www.reverbnation.com]
[www.reverbnation.com]
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: July 15, 2012 16:33
If you read the "Bassplayer" article you will find that Bill also is a 68-72 man and that he doesn't like Vegas Stones (they sound like a click track machine...). He doesn't count 89-90 as Vegas though.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: July 15, 2012 17:07
Yeah Im not sure the point is the Click Track but the Click track in their minds and thats been evident since 1989. Why, because Keith used to be a Click Track with the guitar.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 15, 2012 21:54
Quote
parislocksmith
When was the last time you saw the Stones in concert?
Wyman: It was at London’s O2 Arena in 2007 or 2008. I don’t hear the Stones the same way now as when I was in the band, because in those days, it was all sort of dangerous and loose. Now, it’s like a machine. It’s like they’re playing to click tracks, which we never did. The music has become more machine-like than I would like, and that’s not the way it was when I was with them.
[www.bassplayer.com]
That's great but the click track theories have been around since the Steel Wheels tour since that tour officially kicked off the "Vegas era." Last time I checked Bill was also with them on that tour.
The point of this thread is that no one has had any true, substantial evidence of a click track being used. The only smoking gun people thought they had was the BPM printed on each set list. I have already disproven those tempos with what they actually play on stage. I have also disproven that Chuck's count-ins also do not match the tempos as outlined in the setlists. The link that connects that setlist with the belief that they use click tracks on stage has been broken.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 15, 2012 21:59
Quote
Mathijs
What I said is that they use a click-track to count-off a song, mostly to get it in synch with effects and lighting, and in some cases to get the band starting at the same time as there is no real intro riff (Don't Stop, Monkey Man, Undercover).
I have already disproved above that Chuck's countoffs are way off even as they begin a song. Each video in my earlier post clearly shows Chuck counting off and the band going directly into a faster tempo than what the song has officially listed as its BPM. There was a more than a 5% difference which according to you is more than enough to discount the click track/metronome theory:
Quote
Mathijs
If the difference between the tempo on the set list and the actual is greater than say 3%, we know Chuck doesn't use the metronome.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 00:01 by Justin.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
More Hot Rocks
()
Date: July 16, 2012 03:23
This is stupid. Why justin do you bring up this garbage.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 03:41
What do you mean? I did all the work that no one else ever bothered to do. A lot of people here, YOU included, were under the assumption that click tracks were being used. I've clearly proven that it is highly unlikely that they are used, regardless if it as a guide throughout the entire song or as a guide in the beginning of the song. None of it fits.
A lot more people on this board were quick to the trigger on the click track stuff yet they've been pretty absent in this thread. It could be that they are bummed that their favorite alibi has been taken away from them or maybe perhaps don't care to actually look into this subject on a more serious level.
It's okay. This board goes in waves. This particular subject may not be on people's minds right at this moment but I'm sure once the Stones come back with a few performances in the future, the click track talk will return from the usual suspects and I'll be there with this thread, in hand.
Until then, thanks for stopping by.
A lot more people on this board were quick to the trigger on the click track stuff yet they've been pretty absent in this thread. It could be that they are bummed that their favorite alibi has been taken away from them or maybe perhaps don't care to actually look into this subject on a more serious level.
It's okay. This board goes in waves. This particular subject may not be on people's minds right at this moment but I'm sure once the Stones come back with a few performances in the future, the click track talk will return from the usual suspects and I'll be there with this thread, in hand.
Until then, thanks for stopping by.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
MingSubu
()
Date: July 16, 2012 04:11
I don't think they ever used a click track live.
Was this topic really that big of a deal? Seems like a lot of work for nothing.
Was this topic really that big of a deal? Seems like a lot of work for nothing.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
ryanpow
()
Date: July 16, 2012 05:07
It isn't for nothing. For one thing it's just interesting to see how the speed they play at changes from show to show and from tour to tour.
I wouldn't be surprised of they use a metronome when they rehearse before the tour and the rehearsals are what those "Official" BPM's are based on. Just a guess though.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 05:14 by ryanpow.
I wouldn't be surprised of they use a metronome when they rehearse before the tour and the rehearsals are what those "Official" BPM's are based on. Just a guess though.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 05:14 by ryanpow.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:01
Quote
Justin
A lot more people on this board were quick to the trigger on the click track stuff yet they've been pretty absent in this thread. It could be that they are bummed that their favorite alibi has been taken away from them or maybe perhaps don't care to actually look into this subject on a more serious level.
Sorry. I've been out all day. I'll look for where I read that they use a click to start the songs on stage.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:03
Thanks Ryan.
It might be nothing to someone who never subscribed to the click track theory, like yourself. But for those who cared to notice, the click track talks have been around for years and it was a favorite little phrase to throw at the band to explain why their sound had so mysteriously changed during the "Vegas era." People attributed it to a click track and it was a nice way to explain it all in a nice little phrase. It was easy and it was wrapped up in a nice little package: the Stones sound robotic because they're using click tracks and that's why they don't sound like they used to in the 70's.
But then, if you sat and thought about it, logistically it just wouldn't fit. How would the click track exactly work on stage? Who would hear it? Through what aids (through speakers, in-ear monitors)? Was Chuck really the ring master with the metronome? No one bothered to ask these questions and figure out the logistics of it all. Ever since the official setlists began to make their rounds on the internet and people saw the BPM's listed--it was the smoking gun and it sealed the deal even though the logistical questions still remained unanswered.
The only way to get to the bottom of this was to break up all the pieces of this myth and work from the bottom up--which is what I tried to do from the beginning of the thread. First the questions came, then actually me applying the research to the music and finally putting the theory to the test. This thread may actually end up as a big "who cares?" to everyone but it was useful for me to work through this to finally get it straight in my own head. And just maybe this thread would be useful to anyone who's interested be it a few weeks, months or years from now.
Quote
MingSubu
Seems like a lot of work for nothing.
It might be nothing to someone who never subscribed to the click track theory, like yourself. But for those who cared to notice, the click track talks have been around for years and it was a favorite little phrase to throw at the band to explain why their sound had so mysteriously changed during the "Vegas era." People attributed it to a click track and it was a nice way to explain it all in a nice little phrase. It was easy and it was wrapped up in a nice little package: the Stones sound robotic because they're using click tracks and that's why they don't sound like they used to in the 70's.
But then, if you sat and thought about it, logistically it just wouldn't fit. How would the click track exactly work on stage? Who would hear it? Through what aids (through speakers, in-ear monitors)? Was Chuck really the ring master with the metronome? No one bothered to ask these questions and figure out the logistics of it all. Ever since the official setlists began to make their rounds on the internet and people saw the BPM's listed--it was the smoking gun and it sealed the deal even though the logistical questions still remained unanswered.
The only way to get to the bottom of this was to break up all the pieces of this myth and work from the bottom up--which is what I tried to do from the beginning of the thread. First the questions came, then actually me applying the research to the music and finally putting the theory to the test. This thread may actually end up as a big "who cares?" to everyone but it was useful for me to work through this to finally get it straight in my own head. And just maybe this thread would be useful to anyone who's interested be it a few weeks, months or years from now.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:04
Quote
MingSubu
I don't think they ever used a click track live.
Was this topic really that big of a deal? Seems like a lot of work for nothing.
How long have you been looking at this place!!????!!!??? This is something that is a mystery for some, a challenge for others and downright interesting for the rest! Well OK then there's your lot, who doesn't care.
It beats silly 50 year anniversary threads and the overindulgent SuperLite thread.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:06
Quote
Justin
Thanks Ryan.Quote
MingSubu
Seems like a lot of work for nothing.
It might be nothing to someone who never subscribed to the click track theory, like yourself. But for those who cared to notice, the click track talks have been around for years...
Star Wars: The Click Track Years
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:08
Let's get George Lucas on the phone...he can help solve this!
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:10
Quote
Justin
Let's get George Lucas on the phone...he can help solve this!
Yeah! Especially with that THX Sound!
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 06:35
Indeed!
I believe the quote you're looking for may be found in "According To The Rolling Stones"...page 284, to be exact? Where Ronnie says they use it for the start of the songs only. I saw that a while back which is why I wanted to test this theory all the way through.
In my earlier post (click here), I put up several videos where we clearly see Keith starting off the songs by himself with no assistance. So we can feel good about ruling out all those songs as being click-tracked, yes? If we agree, then that eliminates a HUGE chuck of the setlist as being "click tracked" since Keith starts off so many songs on his own.
(Small digression at this point as we come to our first contradiction: if we can agree that the songs Keith starts off are actually him and him alone with no tempo guidance--why do they still sound so awful?? By this logic, because these are NOT the ones clicktracked these songs should really sound way BETTER than anything else in the set, right? That's the whole issue here! Songs like "JJF" "Start Me Up" and "Brown Sugar" are all the songs that we've noticed have suffered the most! Yet they sound no different in execution to the ones that Chuck leads in on. The popular logic that the click track is used primarily by Chuck to start off a portion of songs would imply that those particular songs would sound WORSE than the ones Keith starts off, all by himself. But there is hardly a difference in quality. The answer? As I suggested before, it has nothing to do with metronomes or clicks but everything to do with the musicians who are playing these songs. I will expand on that in my final conclusions in the next few days.)
And finally then: we have to assume that Chuck controls the tempo with the songs that he, himself counts-in on, right? Well, in this post (click here), I show that even the songs that Chuck counts in on are nowhere near the BPM that's listed on the setlist. This does not bode well as proof that Chuck uses a click track if the tempo they're playing these songs live does not match the BPM that's officially printed on the setlist.
Ronnie was the only one who may have admitted to a click track but really, the evidence just isn't there when you actually look at all the different footage throughout the years.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 06:53 by Justin.
I believe the quote you're looking for may be found in "According To The Rolling Stones"...page 284, to be exact? Where Ronnie says they use it for the start of the songs only. I saw that a while back which is why I wanted to test this theory all the way through.
In my earlier post (click here), I put up several videos where we clearly see Keith starting off the songs by himself with no assistance. So we can feel good about ruling out all those songs as being click-tracked, yes? If we agree, then that eliminates a HUGE chuck of the setlist as being "click tracked" since Keith starts off so many songs on his own.
(Small digression at this point as we come to our first contradiction: if we can agree that the songs Keith starts off are actually him and him alone with no tempo guidance--why do they still sound so awful?? By this logic, because these are NOT the ones clicktracked these songs should really sound way BETTER than anything else in the set, right? That's the whole issue here! Songs like "JJF" "Start Me Up" and "Brown Sugar" are all the songs that we've noticed have suffered the most! Yet they sound no different in execution to the ones that Chuck leads in on. The popular logic that the click track is used primarily by Chuck to start off a portion of songs would imply that those particular songs would sound WORSE than the ones Keith starts off, all by himself. But there is hardly a difference in quality. The answer? As I suggested before, it has nothing to do with metronomes or clicks but everything to do with the musicians who are playing these songs. I will expand on that in my final conclusions in the next few days.)
And finally then: we have to assume that Chuck controls the tempo with the songs that he, himself counts-in on, right? Well, in this post (click here), I show that even the songs that Chuck counts in on are nowhere near the BPM that's listed on the setlist. This does not bode well as proof that Chuck uses a click track if the tempo they're playing these songs live does not match the BPM that's officially printed on the setlist.
Ronnie was the only one who may have admitted to a click track but really, the evidence just isn't there when you actually look at all the different footage throughout the years.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 06:53 by Justin.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 16, 2012 07:51
Don Quixote is bravely attacking ther windmills here...´usually when stating the obvious there is a good chance to win the argument...
- Doxa
- Doxa
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: July 16, 2012 08:19
Yeah, you are right Doxa. Since I'm not a musician I don't care much about the technical discussion about click tracks - I can't control it anyway. It's the result that counts. It may not be click tracks - well then it's some other device. Since "Vegas" many songs start, ends and sounds the same. That is really the essence of the epiteth "Vegas".
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: July 16, 2012 09:52
Quote
Justin
The point of this thread is that no one has had any true, substantial evidence of a click track being used.
The evidence is that I have wittnessed it myself, and that it has been explained to me by the guys at the lighting desk how it worked. Set BPM's at selected tracks where used for the count-off to synch the lighting and effects with the music pace. And to add, this is not only with the Stones, about each and every big band who has toured in the last decade using a click track just for that, and I have wittnessed that myself on various concerts and festivals.
The problem is that the BPM's measured by you do not match the BPM's on the set list, and that's something I don't understand. The only explanation I have is that these setlist are just props for fans, and not used by the band or crew. On most gigs I have worked there wheren't any setlists with this kind of information, but there where roll-calls or crew-books that described exactly what was needed and going on. I can not imagine the back-up singers for the Stones looking at a set list like this to find out whether they sing on or off stage, for example.
Mathijs
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 10:09
Quote
Mathijs
The evidence is that I have wittnessed it myself, and that it has been explained to me by the guys at the lighting desk how it worked. Set BPM's at selected tracks where used for the count-off to synch the lighting and effects with the music pace. And to add, this is not only with the Stones, about each and every big band who has toured in the last decade using a click track just for that, and I have wittnessed that myself on various concerts and festivals.
Let us be very clear: You witnessed someone explaining to you how the BPM is related to the lighting and effects at a show. You can confirm that a conversation occurred between you and a member of the crew. That is all. But you did NOT witness any of the following:
1) The actual sound of the click track going
2) See anyone actually turn on the click track
3) See anyone on stage, listen for the click track
Can you provide me ANY video where you see Chuck, or Charlie, or Keith, or Ronnie or Mick actually listening to a click track? I have provided in this thread countless videos where we do not see any member--including Chuck--referencing a metronom/click-track as a tempo guide for a song neither in the beginning or the middle of a song.
Quote
Mathijs
The only explanation I have is that these setlist are just props for fans, and not used by the band or crew.
Mathijs, I have respected your posts for many years but this right here is just hilarious. A prop setlist? A few members on this thread claim to have seen this setlist posted on Chuck's keyboard. Are you implying that they print up a separate setlist for him and they print up a fake set lists as a a prop on the off chance that a fan happens to steal a copy?? Do you seriously think there is some kind of conspiracy here?
I know it's hard to re-evaluate the reality that you've believed for so long but I think it's becoming clear here that you are going to very extreme lengths to keep this myth going for the sake of not wanting to be wrong.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: July 16, 2012 11:19
Quote
Justin
Let us be very clear: You witnessed someone explaining to you how the BPM is related to the lighting and effects at a show. You can confirm that a conversation occurred between you and a member of the crew. That is all. But you did NOT witness any of the following:
1) The actual sound of the click track going
2) See anyone actually turn on the click track
3) See anyone on stage, listen for the click track
Can you provide me ANY video where you see Chuck, or Charlie, or Keith, or Ronnie or Mick actually listening to a click track? I have provided in this thread countless videos where we do not see any member--including Chuck--referencing a metronom/click-track as a tempo guide for a song neither in the beginning or the middle of a song.
First, as I now have stated multiple times: it's only Chuck who has directions from a click-track. None of the other bandmembers see or hear a click-track as far as I am aware. Second, there is no sound of a click-track. I have never ever heard a sound of a click track on any stage I have been on. When click-tracks are used throughout a song, it is through headphones or in-ears. When a CT is used for a count-off it is visual: a blinking led. The entire show is pre-programmed at both monitor mixer, side-fills, main stage PA and lighting. All is automated: when the band start a certain song, all volume levels, tracks, lighting program etc. are chosen and set automatically, and then adjusted by hand by the mixer etc according to actual situation. For the lighting and effects, all is programmed to fit the song, and all is programmed to a pre-determined beat, which then can be altered according to the actual beat.
Quote
Justin
Mathijs, I have respected your posts for many years but this right here is just hilarious. A prop setlist? A few members on this thread claim to have seen this setlist posted on Chuck's keyboard. Are you implying that they print up a separate setlist for him and they print up a fake set lists as a a prop on the off chance that a fan happens to steal a copy?? Do you seriously think there is some kind of conspiracy here?
I know it's hard to re-evaluate the reality that you've believed for so long but I think it's becoming clear here that you are going to very extreme lengths to keep this myth going for the sake of not wanting to be wrong.
No, no conspiricy, but I am trying to get an explanation why the BPM's on the setlist are so different to the actual BPM's. And again, we know that the BPM's for the tracks started by Richards are only indications: on a good night he starts IORR at 140, on a bad night at 110. What I don't understand is why songs that are counted off by Chuck have such different tempi. A possible explanation could be, I am not sure, is that the setlist as we have is not used by the crew at all. One indication I personally have is that important information like when the BU singers are on stage is not communicated by such simple setlist, but by pre-determined and communicated scripts. Another example is that the lighting personal does not use these setlists at all. They get informed about the set the day before, and then start programming the light show, loading all settings that have been programmed months before.
I know that the Stones are much looser than many other bands, and it could be that the BPM's really just are indications. I was at the mixing desk during a Coldplay concert, and there just basically EVERYTHING was pre-set. In fact, the band was playing along a pre-recorded tape, and evything from visuals to effects to PA settings was pre-programmed. That show really was one push on the button and go.
Mathijs
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: July 16, 2012 12:28
For me there never was a case.
The only track enterily played with a set tempo is Devil (by the way, I remember that during a club show in 2003 the band finished Devil but the sampled congas whent on, then the congas stopped and the band started playing again and those couple of loose minutes without congas were the best Devil since 1976).
The tempos on the set list are just indications mainly for the crew, meaning that when the songs were rehearsed in synch with lights and effects, those were the tempo they were working on. At the actual gig, the band would do its best to stay in that area, and the crew would then adjust in real time.
The KR no BPM indication is clearly a internal joke.
C
The only track enterily played with a set tempo is Devil (by the way, I remember that during a club show in 2003 the band finished Devil but the sampled congas whent on, then the congas stopped and the band started playing again and those couple of loose minutes without congas were the best Devil since 1976).
The tempos on the set list are just indications mainly for the crew, meaning that when the songs were rehearsed in synch with lights and effects, those were the tempo they were working on. At the actual gig, the band would do its best to stay in that area, and the crew would then adjust in real time.
The KR no BPM indication is clearly a internal joke.
C
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Vocalion
()
Date: July 16, 2012 13:06
I was at the mixing desk during a Coldplay concert
Somethings should remain unsaid.
Somethings should remain unsaid.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: July 16, 2012 13:27
Quote
Vocalion
I was at the mixing desk during a Coldplay concert
Somethings should remain unsaid.
Only excuse that can be accpted is he was entertaining Ms Paltrow ...
C
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
()
Date: July 16, 2012 17:01
Having experienced this kind of thing myself in a studio what I can share is quite simple - it's impossible to stay on click. That is, having recorded with a click track through the entire song, it just doesn't work. No matter how good the drummer is, the song determines a push, nudge or drag. It's impossible. As far as getting a live take is concerned. If your some shit band like Boston or whoever then overdubbing can take care of that.
Have done the click at the front and then taken out. I've always noticed that the song gets in to what feels best on its own anyway. So the click really is pointless.
For the Stones onstage it's probably more of a 'we are starting in' and it keeps everyone awake. They take the click out then yeah there is no reason for them to finish the song at the exact same tempo on purpose. It's always possible that they can finish with the starting count. No band worth their salt is ever going to play a song exactly the same every night, even if you think it sounds the same, it's not.
Have done the click at the front and then taken out. I've always noticed that the song gets in to what feels best on its own anyway. So the click really is pointless.
For the Stones onstage it's probably more of a 'we are starting in' and it keeps everyone awake. They take the click out then yeah there is no reason for them to finish the song at the exact same tempo on purpose. It's always possible that they can finish with the starting count. No band worth their salt is ever going to play a song exactly the same every night, even if you think it sounds the same, it's not.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 16, 2012 19:36
Maybe Justin's tracking of the BPM's is off by 5% and the tempo's of their songs actually match the set lists near perfectly. 
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 19:39 by His Majesty.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 19:39 by His Majesty.
Re: The "Click Track" Theory -- DEBUNKED
Posted by:
Justin
()
Date: July 16, 2012 20:57
Quote
His Majesty
Maybe Justin's tracking of the BPM's is off by 5% and the tempo's of their songs actually match the set lists near perfectly.
haha that'd be a nice little discovery!
But alas, there was one song that the BPM on the setlist matched with my tracking: "Sympathy For The Devil." Each version of the song clocked in exactly at 109 BPM right on the dot--exactly as listed on the setlists. And that should be of no surprise to anyone since it is very clear that they are using the exact same drum loop throughout that song. So with that, we do have confirmation that my tracking procedure captured the BPM's accurately.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-16 20:59 by Justin.
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