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nightskyman

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Blue
I don't know what's wrong with me, but I like Satanic much better than Pepper, and always did. I don't hear a really nice melody on ANY song from Pepper, maybe Lucy in the Sky during the refrain but that's it...but the Stones managed to put out several, at least four anyway, Psychadelic songs with great melodies..(Rainbow, 2000 Light Years, Citadel, and 2000 Man)..no disrespect to the Beatles though, adored the Beatles up until Rubber Soul...after that, the Stones produced better druggy music than the Beatles by then IMHO.

Hold on, now. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is only 'nice' melody on the Sgt. Pepper's album? Are you kidding me? What do you mean by 'nice'? (Does that mean good or bad?).
Are you saying "Getting Better," or "A Day in the Life" are not 'nice' melodies?
Come on!

Kidding no one..Shockingly, there are people who exist in this world who are and were not big fans of Sgt Pepper, even if it is not popular to say so...maybe "closet Sgt Pepper dislikers".... Yes.... A Day in the Life and Getting Better have pretty dreadful melodies...much prefer the pre Pepper sound of the Beatles..now You've Got To Hide Your Love Away...That's a great (NICE) melody

Listening to the Satanic Sessions box sets and a close listen to the session for Flowers In Your Hair/She's A Rainbow reveals the presence of Paul McCartney playing percussion along with Mick.

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His Majesty

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Mock Jogger
the beginning of Gomper, the first few instrumental bars, is truly unprecedented musical magic (until the singing and with it an only half inspired song sets in); the way the Mellotron sounds on Gomper foreshadow the eerie atmosphere of 2000 Light Years is another brilliant part.

There isn't a mellotron on Gomper.

I've seen you didn't give credit for a Mellotron on Gomper in your list above. So what is your take how the - obviously overdubbed - sound was created that comes in at 1:52 and stays there until the end of the track?
It's very close to the lower notes of the Mellotron of the intro for 2000 Light Years From Home. That's why it functions as a musical connection between the two tracks - and why the use of a Mellotron for that part of Gomper seems the most likely option for me. If I didn't miss anything, nothing in your list relates to that sound.


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"Pushing you in puddles/In the dead of night/Beware of ABKCO"
George Harrison, early Beware Of Darkness version (1970)

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Mock Jogger

I've seen you didn't give credit for a Mellotron on Gomper in your list above. So what is your take how the - obviously overdubbed - sound was created that comes in at 1:52 and stays there until the end of the track?
It's very close to the lower notes of the Mellotron of the intro for 2000 Light Years From Home. That's why it functions as a musical connection between the two tracks - and why the use of a Mellotron for that part of Gomper seems the most likely option for me. If I didn't miss anything, nothing in your list relates to that sound.


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The sound you are hearing on Gomper is a chord held on a Hammond organ with leslie rotating speaker effect engaged on slow setting.

There's normal and backwards piano at the very start of 2000 Light Years From Home and at the end, no Hammond organ on that track.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-03 02:48 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
The sound you are hearing on Gomper is a chord held on a Hammond organ with leslie rotating speaker effect engaged on slow setting.

This makes sense to me. Thanks for your response.

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His Majesty
There's normal and backwards piano at the very start of 2000 Light Years From Home and at the end, no Hammond organ on that track.

So you're saying there's no Mellotron in the intro of 2000 Light Years, but the sound effects are a result of tape manipulation (well, apart from the fact that the Mellotron is tape manipulation in itself)? And if so: how'd you find out? Some source you've found, reference sounds on other recordings or did you try yourself? Just curious.

And if you don't mind another question, Majesty: you'll probably know an interview with Brian Jones from June 1967, in which he is demonstrating a few things on Mellotron to the interviewer. Brian tells him there'd be no brass but Mellotron on Good Morning Good Morning by the Beatles. All references for this track I found doing a quick research on the internet say in contrast to Brian it's true brass (obviously backed up by Lewisohn, but I don't have his book), including players of Sounds Incorporated. Comparing the brass sounds of Got To Get You Into My Life with Good Morning I find Brian's claim not too far fetched - or at least the possibility the latter could have been created partially by Mellotron.
I'd be interested in your point of view.



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"Pushing you in puddles/In the dead of night/Beware of ABKCO"
George Harrison, early Beware Of Darkness version (1970)

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His Majesty
Perhaps this was obvious to others, but I've long thought that in addition to playing Mellotron on On With The Show, Brian also played a concert harp during the weird breaks. Upon further listening I've since realised that what I had thought was a concert harp is in fact a harpsichord with a dampers engaged, this has the effect of giving the harpsichord a cluncky and muted sound.

This harpsichord part mirrors note for note the piano part so I think it's safe to assume that both the piano and harpsichord were played by Nicky Hopkins. Nicky also used the harpsichord with dampers engaged during sessions for Bill's In Another Land.

The instrumental break of "On with the show" it's not an muted harpsicord (you mean the "lute stop" )



, it's a concert harp, and obviously it's not played by Brian. Is a Paraguay' folk song, "Pajaro Campana". And it's played by a professional musician, for sure.
To add a few words on Brian and what did Brian played, it's easy to find when you think on a "riff" concept. That's the way he did play the harp, the guitar (lead and rhythm) and of course, the organ, piano, flute and whatever he did play. If the instrument you are hearing play something "hard ro play", long frases and many notes THAT'S NOT BRIAN (excepting the flute part on Ruby Tuesday). Harpsichord on Dandelion... not Brian. Stu, maybe. Nicky, not sure. Organ in Dandelion is SURE Nicky Hopkins. Harp on "On with the show"... session musician (paraguayan?). Maybe a pre-recorded sample, too.

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"I'm gonna walk... before they make me run"

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-08 04:27 by dandelion1967.

The only mellotron on 2000 Light Years Frome Home is the obvious 3 violins string sound part which first enters during the guitar/bass unison intro riff.

The forwards and backwards tack piano heard at the start and briefly at the end is distincitvely a real acoustic tack piano, not the piano sound found on the MKII mellotron.

Brian was simply wrong about the Good Morning brass being played on a mellotron. Perhaps he heard an earlier demo version featuring such a thing though, but the released version is most definitely a group of musicians playing their brass instruments, not the brass sound played on a MKII mellotron.

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dandelion1967


The instrumental break of "On with the show" it's not an muted harpsicord (you mean the "lute stop"), it's a concert harp, and obviously it's not played by Brian. Is a Paraguay' folk song, "Pajaro Campana". And it's played by a professional musician, for sure.

It's not a concert harp, but indeed a harpsichord as the video you posted shows, note the same clunking of the key mechanism as heard on On With The Show during that instrumental part. Seeing how it matches pretty much exactly the piano part it's safe to assume it was Nicky who played it.

Thanks for the info on the tune and technical name for the setting on the harpsichord. The same lute stop setting was used on and off on In Another Land.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-08 04:49 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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dandelion1967


The instrumental break of "On with the show" it's not an muted harpsicord (you mean the "lute stop"), it's a concert harp, and obviously it's not played by Brian. Is a Paraguay' folk song, "Pajaro Campana". And it's played by a professional musician, for sure.

It's not a concert harp, but indeed a harpsichord and seeing how it matches pretty much exactly the piano part it's safe to assume it was Nicky who played it.

Thanks for the info on the tune and technical name for the setting on the harpsichord. The same lute stop setting was used on and off on In Another Land.

I insist, not a harpsichord. Real concert harp. Arpeggios on a harpsichord doesn't sound like that, and you will have "noises" and lack of instenisty, and that's not what I hear. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have to mention, on my behalf, that I was right about Stu playing live in Brown Sugar and Sweet Virginia in STP 1972, Nicky playing the rest of the songs! Nicky was a sight-reader, classically trained musician, and Ian McLagan said that Nicky need to listen to a piano lick just a single time to know all the notes included. So, my opinion is: the Stones have a recorded track of "Pajaro Campana", and they overdub the piano part. In the satanic sessions, Nicky dind't play that music.

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"I'm gonna walk... before they make me run"

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dandelion1967


I insist, not a harpsichord. Real concert harp. Arpeggios on a harpsichord doesn't sound like that, and you will have "noises" and lack of instenisty, and that's not what I hear. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have to mention, on my behalf, that I was right about Stu playing live in Brown Sugar and Sweet Virginia in STP 1972, Nicky playing the rest of the songs! Nicky was a sight-reader, classically trained musician, and Ian McLagan said that Nicky need to listen to a piano lick just a single time to know all the notes included. So, my opinion is: the Stones have a recorded track of "Pajaro Campana", and they overdub the piano part. In the satanic sessions, Nicky dind't play that music.

There is much noise and clunking of the key mechanism on the instrumental part of On With The Show. The very same sound is heard on In Another Land. The video you posted shows the sound and noisey mechanism quite clearly.

The outtakes from the Satanic Sessions bootleg box sets let us hear Nicky playing piano throughout the available takes of them recording backing track. The basic backing tracks as played and recorded live consist of electric guitar, piano, mellotron, bass and drums.

For On With The Show Nicky played the piano during the backing track sessions and then he must have overdubbed the harpsichord using lute stop setting.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-08 05:20 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
The forwards and backwards tack piano heard at the start and briefly at the end is distincitvely a real acoustic tack piano, not the piano sound found on the MKII mellotron.

I've never heard before that the spaced out intro sounds of 2000 Light Years would be piano played backwards. That's why I asked how you came to that conclusion: can you name reference sounds on other recordings, have you a source saying that or did you experiment yourself with a backward running tapemachine?

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His Majesty
Brian was simply wrong about the Good Morning brass being played on a mellotron. Perhaps he heard an earlier demo version featuring such a thing though, but the released version is most definitely a group of musicians playing their brass instruments, not the brass sound played on a MKII mellotron.

Again, I had hoped you'd not just repeat an opinion you can read often enough on the internet, but back up that opinion.
After all, Brian made that statement while he was demonstrating the very instrument he was talking about, the Mellotron, to his interviewer. And this interviewer wasn't just someone, but a renowned jazz trombonist, Michael "Mike" Zwerin (recruited by none other than Miles Davis for an early The Birth Of The Cool rehearsal group) - so it is save to say with Brian and Zwerin there was some competence in brass sounds as well as in the Mellotron and in Sergeant Pepper at the scene. (Brian had been visiting the Beatles at Abbey Road shortly before. And his obsession with sounds, at that time particularly with the Mellotron, and his chatty nature - especially on topics he was excited about - makes it highly unlikely he did not talk with Paul McCartney and/or George Martin about the use of that instrument on Pepper - an album he had a lot of time for and that four weeks after its release and immediate and unprecedented success still was one of two records close to Brian's record player).
However, trombonist Zwerin obviously has not any doubt about Brian's claim:

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"Sergeant Pepper" and Coltrane's "Meditations" are near the record player, which is next to the Mellatron [sic], a sort of computerized player piano, resembling an expensive spinet. Showing it off, Jones pulls one of the stops, at the same time playing a C in the lower register. The combination produces an entire Dixieland band. Without changing the stop, he moves to C sharp and the band modulates. He adjusts another knob and a Bach trumpet joins in, changing keys in accordance with the notes Jones presses with his right hand. There is a brass section stop, a woodwind stop, an opera stop, and so on. Also, a large variety of combinations.
I learn that the "brass section" on the Beatles' "Good Morning Good Morning" is actually a Mellatron [sic]. [Zwerin:] "Really - my god, that's going to put a lot of musicians out of work [...]"
[Brian Jones:] "[...] Yeah - you're right. I wonder how long before the union catches up with it ..."

The complete - very interesting - article can be read here:
[news.google.com]

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dandelion1967
The instrumental break of "On with the show" it's not an muted harpsicord (you mean the "lute stop" ), it's a concert harp, and obviously it's not played by Brian. Is a Paraguay' folk song, "Pajaro Campana". And it's played by a professional musician, for sure. [...] Harp on "On with the show"... session musician (paraguayan?). Maybe a pre-recorded sample, too.

Those who worked with Brian in the studio left no doubt they witnessed Brian's competence to play the harp. From an article in NME (by Keith Altham, 16 September 1967)

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As Brian left the control room, sound engineer Glyn Johns extolled the Stones musicianship.
"Brian´s incredible," he said, "did you hear that harp on the last track - he played that - just picked it up in the studio."

[www.iorr.org] (Posted on iorr by rootsman.)

More from Glyn Johns on the topic in an article released in late 1968:

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Glyn Johns lays at Brian's feet the honours for musical versatility. "He can pick up any instrument [...]. [O]n the last track we made which may not even be issued, he played harp. There was a harp in the studio and you know how difficult it is to play with all those pedals and things? Well, he took of his shoes and sat down to it and five minutes later he got what he wanted to do."

[www.iorr.org] (posted on iorr by Sohoe)

Ian Stewart on the Satanic sessions, quoted by Bill Wyman in both of his books:

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[Brian]'d do anything. He would turn up at the studio with saxophones and he even played harp on a number. There was one in the back of the studio for an orchestral session. He sat down and fiddled with it, and got something out of it fairly easily. The talent and ability were there [...]

Stone Alone, p. 539-540 and Rolling With The Stones, p. 297

I think we can agree both Glyn and Ian had the competence to judge whether Brian's playing was any good or not. Both are/were not exactly known for being mindless Brian admirers (the parts of Stu's quote I left out are his usual anger about Brian wasting his talents - something that in Stu's mind was unpardonable.) Bill presenting Stu's quotes in both of his books puts even more weight to the fact that Brian indeed played harp during the Satanic sessions. The question remains if indeed on On With The Show. The points His Majesty made are at least interesting.
However, the respect Brian got from Stones studio insiders combined with the fact he could make a lot of sense out of other instruments - like dulcimer especially on I'm Waiting - within a very short time indicates that the badly played parts of Acid In The Grass are not the parts Stu and Glyn lost so many words of praise about.

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dandelion1967
To add a few words on Brian and what did Brian played, it's easy to find when you think on a "riff" concept. That's the way he did play the harp, the guitar (lead and rhythm) and of course, the organ, piano, flute and whatever he did play. If the instrument you are hearing play something "hard ro play", long frases and many notes THAT'S NOT BRIAN (excepting the flute part on Ruby Tuesday).

Complete nonsense. You seem to have a different set of Stones records.
Trademark Brian parts like on 2120 South Michigan Avenue, Look What You've Done, High And Dry, I Can't Be Satisfied, Out Of Time, to name a few are certainly not of the two bar riff kind, but belong clearly in the, how you say, "long phrases and many notes" Ruby Tuesday section.
But even parts that indeed have a shorter scale and are more repetitive are often played by Brian with a connecting bit (connecting different bits is VERY typical for Brian's theoretical ideas on music as for his playing, which is a major part why he is actually such an unusual pop musician): for example both his rhythm guitar on Carol and the plucking guitar on If You Need Me are varied by such bits.
Apart from that Brian's playing is characterized by a pretty good sense of dynamics: the way his riff explodes into the intro of It's All Over Now, is than taken back again in the verses to be let loose in chorus and outro again, his energetic organ on That's How Strong My Love Is (live in Melbourne version) and the Mellotron on We Love You are further examples (and show at the same time how little dynamic feel and variation was often enough in Keith's playing).

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"Pushing you in puddles/In the dead of night/Beware of ABKCO"
George Harrison, early Beware Of Darkness version (1970)

Regarding Good Morning, there is very detailed information contained in the Recording The Beatles book.

"... a heavily limited and compressed brass section composed of three saxophones, two trombones and a french horn was recorded on to track 2...

... the brass was treated with flanging"

Also this from The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions, Mark Lewisohn.

"They spent a long time doing the overdub, about three hours or maybe longer, but John Lennon thought it sounded too straight. So we ended up flanging, limiting and compressing it, anything to make it sound unlike brass playing. It was typical John Lennon - he just wanted it to sound weird.

Richard Lush, tape operator"

"Barrie Cameron, David Glyde and Alan Holmes on saxophone, John Lee and another, unknown person on trombone, and a player merely identified as Tom on French horn."






Brian just got it wrong, understandable given the heavily effected sound of the brass on the track which does lend it some mellotron brass like qualities.

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Regarding the piano at the start of 2000 Light Years From Home. The forward tack piano is easily and obviously identified as such as a tack piano, simply reversing the backwards piano makes it play forwards and the exact same sound is there. There's lots of recordings with backwards piano.

Some reversed piano for you. Not exactly the same because it isn't a tack piano.







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It's not a concert harp on On With The Show. The youtube link of a harpsichord with the lute setting engaged makes it clear that it is indeed one and the same sound as heard on both In Another Land and On With The Show. The distinctive sound, stiff dynamics, no sustain and clattering of key mechanism is all there.

You hear as much of the mechanism as you do the notes. You do not get that with a concert harp.

I long assumed it was a concert harp on On With The Show, but the Satanic Sessions bootlegs allowed me to hear the clear use of a harpsichord with and without the lute setting on outtakes of In Another Land. The distinctive lute setting heard on In Another Land is also used during instrumental parts of On With The Show.






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Glyn and Stu say that Brian sat with a concert harp and got what he wanted out of it quickly and easily. Glyn saying "it may not even get issued" sure implies it's something like Acid In The Grass.

Is the harp on that track badly played? It's typical Brian Jones on an unusual instrument, complete with a simple, but effective melodic idea which gets repeated.

Pretty cool for "5 minutes" time on an instrument he had never played before.







Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-17 03:43 by His Majesty.