Tell Me :
Talk
eyewitnesses have described it - see for example Stanley Booth's True Adventures
and there are audience recordings where you can hear a lot of what's going on
i understand that Stanley Booth was way off in his impression of our colleague bmuseeed,
but in terms of accuracy with the historical facts (and of "getting" what the Stones were about)
his True Adventures is a lot better than most books about the Stones -
and he writes just like ringing a bell.
absolutely true!!....unfortunately for poeple that care about accuracy in dates--I suck-- as I have no concept of time or dates-- just stuff. Luckily the Maysles documented most of '69. At some time in the future, someone might take all their footage and with time dates lay it out in real time--there was a lot of stuff no one has ever seen..Many times they would walk into my hotel room and film when I was in bed. ie: the morning after Altamont!
So please, which band and singer was on stage calling up the Angels?
I recall it being during the day, as it was light outside, and a guy went flying head first thru the drum kit.. I beleive it was a female singer..she said, "would someone come up and give us a hand"-- I keep telling Albert, if they ever get a chance, to look for the footage..
as to Mick's height.. "a debate?" I would guess based on pic's with me next to him... including his hair 5'9 3/3"
Ron, thanks for all your comments, insights and contributions through the years. I, for one, always read them with interest and appreciation.
As far as a "female singer", calling upon the Angels, who could it have been other than Grace Slick? Wasn't she the only female singer on stage that day?
And as far as the Maysles brother's integrity goes, I have the following comments:
When the reissue of the film came out, I, too, noticed a difference in the phone call received in Belli's office. I had/have the Betamax Hi_Fi stereo version of the movie and this version has the campy voiced dude on the phone. I also bought the ABKCO laserdisc issue and by this time, I believe, the voice and conversation had changed.
Incidentally, the Maysles have never said they were 'documentary' film-makers. In interviews and reviews which came out immediately upon the film's release, the Maysles were described as favoring a method called 'direct cinema', which is described quite accurately in Mr. Schneider's earlier comments about their technique. This may be a semantic difference in the minds of many, but it is worth noting that this is what the Maysles themselves said.
Decisions are made throughout the film-making process, which begin by deciding exactly WHAT to film, continue with deciding what film to USE, and finally by deciding HOW to edit these pieces together.
In this case, it was Charlotte Zwerin who very artfully edited these pieces together, not the Maysles brothers.
The film has had changes since its very release. Initially, the film had the word 'f*ck' used by Grace Slick and Jagger on-stage. Before the movie finished it's first-run, a new version was used, which removed the offensive word, probably for ratings reasons. Now, the movie has Slick saying 'f*ck', but not Mick. Is this dishonest film-making? I think not.
All along, we Stones fans have known that the film version of 'Satisfaction" is a spliced creation of 2 performances-a reality that occurred only on screen and never on stage. The version of 'Gimme Shelter' used at the end is truncated.
'Love In Vain' is from Baltimore, not MSG. The murder occurred between performances of 'Under My Thumb' and not after, and so on.
However, I truly believe that NOTHING in the movie was staged-everything in it occurred unscripted. How and why it was edited these different ways are questions that may never be answered. The movie remains an artful and powerful cinematic work that speaks volumes in its mere 90 minutes.
As to the substituted phone call in Belli's office? IMHO, I believe the campy voiced guy was a 'version B' of the film that was edited in that way out of concerns for not having proper releases/permission from the speaker in the current version. Somehow, parts of a different phone call were edited into Belli's questions to allow for the flow of the film. Don't forget that many, many phone calls occurred in that office and the intent of the film-makers was not to produce a dry timeline of events, but to move a compelling story forward to a grotesque and startling conclusion.
I may be wrong, just saying....
and you may be right! For sure nothing was staged! For sure Charlotte did an amazing job as the footage was culled together from all the people filming. They took the footage to the air force and they made it 35mm usable.
I haven't seen any of the new releases so I can't commment on them. Being there was enough.
As to the female singer..I try to remember if it was Grace and earlier to the scuffle with Marty--the Airplane did long sets and it could have bee in that timeline ( some may hate me for this addmission but I literally pulled the plug on them at the Oakland show during one of our tour dates..they were running long and we had to get out of there-I told thier manager to tell them to get off and they went into another set..we killed it..)..
I have to recuse myself... I did the US/Canada publishing deal for him as well as the iPhone app--in the Apple app store.
ron
Got it... all good..
on a separate note...I am smiling now as I recall a lot of the stuff no one has ever seen other than those going thru the Maysles footage..!! One gets used to people following you around with cameras, even big ones and modesty and sensibilities go out the window...
I have been listing more stories on my blog.. but I do enjoy the diversity and current info here..for the most part..
I hadn't 'dropped by in awhile and was delighted to see some things I could try and reply to..:-)
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
Reagan
()
Date: March 10, 2012 06:30
bmuseed,
Thanks for your contributions. Please keep it up.
-Reagan
Thanks for your contributions. Please keep it up.
-Reagan
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
swiss
()
Date: March 10, 2012 07:02
deardoctortake1,
how do you come to know what you say below?
thanks
swiss
how do you come to know what you say below?
thanks
swiss
Quote
memphiscatsQuote
deardoctortake1.Quote
bmuseed
I'll try and shed some light...the Maysles never nor would ever manipulate anything for a documentary
Actually not true, The Maysles moved the murder in the film from when it actually occurred after the Under My thumb false start(not in the film), to after the full Under My thumb. But while the murder is occurring, you hear the Stones playing the second Under My thumb, but the band on film is not playing. You have to compare the film with the audience recording to see it and hear it more clearly, but they did move the murder
Larry
Can you elaborate? I'm not gruesome - just curious about the facts.
Thank you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 08:55 by swiss.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
memphiscats
()
Date: March 10, 2012 07:37
Quote
swissThank you for this question, swiss...Quote
memphiscatsQuote
deardoctortake1.Quote
bmuseed
I'll try and shed some light...the Maysles never nor would ever manipulate anything for a documentary
Actually not true, The Maysles moved the murder in the film from when it actually occurred after the Under My thumb false start(not in the film), to after the full Under My thumb. But while the murder is occurring, you hear the Stones playing the second Under My thumb, but the band on film is not playing. You have to compare the film with the audience recording to see it and hear it more clearly, but they did move the murder
Larry
Can you elaborate? I'm not gruesome - just curious about the facts.
Thank you.
deardoctortake1, how do you come to know what you say above?
thanks
swiss
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: March 10, 2012 09:48
Quote
memphiscats
Can you elaborate? I'm not gruesome - just curious about the facts.
eyewitnesses have described it - see for example Stanley Booth's True Adventures
and there are audience recordings where you can hear a lot of what's going on
i understand that Stanley Booth was way off in his impression of our colleague bmuseeed,
but in terms of accuracy with the historical facts (and of "getting" what the Stones were about)
his True Adventures is a lot better than most books about the Stones -
and he writes just like ringing a bell.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 10, 2012 17:08
Quote
His Majesty
To be fair, everyone, including bmuseed gets things wrong and/or mixes stuff up etc etc.
[meandtherollingstones.com]
A 1966 photo, with 1967 memories, possibly 1966 memories too!?
absolutely true!!....unfortunately for poeple that care about accuracy in dates--I suck-- as I have no concept of time or dates-- just stuff. Luckily the Maysles documented most of '69. At some time in the future, someone might take all their footage and with time dates lay it out in real time--there was a lot of stuff no one has ever seen..Many times they would walk into my hotel room and film when I was in bed. ie: the morning after Altamont!
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
melillo
()
Date: March 10, 2012 17:37
bmuseed there has been a debate for years on this forum about how tall mick jagger is, the guesses range from 5 foot 7 to 5 foot 10, can you give us a final answer on this please?
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
CousinC
()
Date: March 10, 2012 17:50
Quote
bmuseed
And you know this because?
If by fast and loose you are talking about the editing process-sure --but as to the footage they use-absolutely not! I still think they have footage that shows the Angels not on the stage until they are called up after a guy charges the stage and flies thru the drum kit. The singer on the stage asks for someone to come up and help and the Angels came up to the stage and no one dared ask them to leave. This would blow a factual hole in the other urban myth of the Angels being hired as stage security.
So please, which band and singer was on stage calling up the Angels?
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 10, 2012 20:36
Quote
CousinCQuote
bmuseed
And you know this because?
If by fast and loose you are talking about the editing process-sure --but as to the footage they use-absolutely not! I still think they have footage that shows the Angels not on the stage until they are called up after a guy charges the stage and flies thru the drum kit. The singer on the stage asks for someone to come up and help and the Angels came up to the stage and no one dared ask them to leave. This would blow a factual hole in the other urban myth of the Angels being hired as stage security.
So please, which band and singer was on stage calling up the Angels?
I recall it being during the day, as it was light outside, and a guy went flying head first thru the drum kit.. I beleive it was a female singer..she said, "would someone come up and give us a hand"-- I keep telling Albert, if they ever get a chance, to look for the footage..
as to Mick's height.. "a debate?" I would guess based on pic's with me next to him... including his hair 5'9 3/3"
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
thkbeercan
()
Date: March 10, 2012 21:52
Quote
bmuseedQuote
CousinCQuote
bmuseed
And you know this because?
If by fast and loose you are talking about the editing process-sure --but as to the footage they use-absolutely not! I still think they have footage that shows the Angels not on the stage until they are called up after a guy charges the stage and flies thru the drum kit. The singer on the stage asks for someone to come up and help and the Angels came up to the stage and no one dared ask them to leave. This would blow a factual hole in the other urban myth of the Angels being hired as stage security.
So please, which band and singer was on stage calling up the Angels?
I recall it being during the day, as it was light outside, and a guy went flying head first thru the drum kit.. I beleive it was a female singer..she said, "would someone come up and give us a hand"-- I keep telling Albert, if they ever get a chance, to look for the footage..
as to Mick's height.. "a debate?" I would guess based on pic's with me next to him... including his hair 5'9 3/3"
Ron, thanks for all your comments, insights and contributions through the years. I, for one, always read them with interest and appreciation.
As far as a "female singer", calling upon the Angels, who could it have been other than Grace Slick? Wasn't she the only female singer on stage that day?
And as far as the Maysles brother's integrity goes, I have the following comments:
When the reissue of the film came out, I, too, noticed a difference in the phone call received in Belli's office. I had/have the Betamax Hi_Fi stereo version of the movie and this version has the campy voiced dude on the phone. I also bought the ABKCO laserdisc issue and by this time, I believe, the voice and conversation had changed.
Incidentally, the Maysles have never said they were 'documentary' film-makers. In interviews and reviews which came out immediately upon the film's release, the Maysles were described as favoring a method called 'direct cinema', which is described quite accurately in Mr. Schneider's earlier comments about their technique. This may be a semantic difference in the minds of many, but it is worth noting that this is what the Maysles themselves said.
Decisions are made throughout the film-making process, which begin by deciding exactly WHAT to film, continue with deciding what film to USE, and finally by deciding HOW to edit these pieces together.
In this case, it was Charlotte Zwerin who very artfully edited these pieces together, not the Maysles brothers.
The film has had changes since its very release. Initially, the film had the word 'f*ck' used by Grace Slick and Jagger on-stage. Before the movie finished it's first-run, a new version was used, which removed the offensive word, probably for ratings reasons. Now, the movie has Slick saying 'f*ck', but not Mick. Is this dishonest film-making? I think not.
All along, we Stones fans have known that the film version of 'Satisfaction" is a spliced creation of 2 performances-a reality that occurred only on screen and never on stage. The version of 'Gimme Shelter' used at the end is truncated.
'Love In Vain' is from Baltimore, not MSG. The murder occurred between performances of 'Under My Thumb' and not after, and so on.
However, I truly believe that NOTHING in the movie was staged-everything in it occurred unscripted. How and why it was edited these different ways are questions that may never be answered. The movie remains an artful and powerful cinematic work that speaks volumes in its mere 90 minutes.
As to the substituted phone call in Belli's office? IMHO, I believe the campy voiced guy was a 'version B' of the film that was edited in that way out of concerns for not having proper releases/permission from the speaker in the current version. Somehow, parts of a different phone call were edited into Belli's questions to allow for the flow of the film. Don't forget that many, many phone calls occurred in that office and the intent of the film-makers was not to produce a dry timeline of events, but to move a compelling story forward to a grotesque and startling conclusion.
I may be wrong, just saying....
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 10, 2012 22:11
Quote
thkbeercan
Ron, thanks for all your comments, insights and contributions through the years. I, for one, always read them with interest and appreciation.
As far as a "female singer", calling upon the Angels, who could it have been other than Grace Slick? Wasn't she the only female singer on stage that day?
And as far as the Maysles brother's integrity goes, I have the following comments:
When the reissue of the film came out, I, too, noticed a difference in the phone call received in Belli's office. I had/have the Betamax Hi_Fi stereo version of the movie and this version has the campy voiced dude on the phone. I also bought the ABKCO laserdisc issue and by this time, I believe, the voice and conversation had changed.
Incidentally, the Maysles have never said they were 'documentary' film-makers. In interviews and reviews which came out immediately upon the film's release, the Maysles were described as favoring a method called 'direct cinema', which is described quite accurately in Mr. Schneider's earlier comments about their technique. This may be a semantic difference in the minds of many, but it is worth noting that this is what the Maysles themselves said.
Decisions are made throughout the film-making process, which begin by deciding exactly WHAT to film, continue with deciding what film to USE, and finally by deciding HOW to edit these pieces together.
In this case, it was Charlotte Zwerin who very artfully edited these pieces together, not the Maysles brothers.
The film has had changes since its very release. Initially, the film had the word 'f*ck' used by Grace Slick and Jagger on-stage. Before the movie finished it's first-run, a new version was used, which removed the offensive word, probably for ratings reasons. Now, the movie has Slick saying 'f*ck', but not Mick. Is this dishonest film-making? I think not.
All along, we Stones fans have known that the film version of 'Satisfaction" is a spliced creation of 2 performances-a reality that occurred only on screen and never on stage. The version of 'Gimme Shelter' used at the end is truncated.
'Love In Vain' is from Baltimore, not MSG. The murder occurred between performances of 'Under My Thumb' and not after, and so on.
However, I truly believe that NOTHING in the movie was staged-everything in it occurred unscripted. How and why it was edited these different ways are questions that may never be answered. The movie remains an artful and powerful cinematic work that speaks volumes in its mere 90 minutes.
As to the substituted phone call in Belli's office? IMHO, I believe the campy voiced guy was a 'version B' of the film that was edited in that way out of concerns for not having proper releases/permission from the speaker in the current version. Somehow, parts of a different phone call were edited into Belli's questions to allow for the flow of the film. Don't forget that many, many phone calls occurred in that office and the intent of the film-makers was not to produce a dry timeline of events, but to move a compelling story forward to a grotesque and startling conclusion.
I may be wrong, just saying....
and you may be right! For sure nothing was staged! For sure Charlotte did an amazing job as the footage was culled together from all the people filming. They took the footage to the air force and they made it 35mm usable.
I haven't seen any of the new releases so I can't commment on them. Being there was enough.
As to the female singer..I try to remember if it was Grace and earlier to the scuffle with Marty--the Airplane did long sets and it could have bee in that timeline ( some may hate me for this addmission but I literally pulled the plug on them at the Oakland show during one of our tour dates..they were running long and we had to get out of there-I told thier manager to tell them to get off and they went into another set..we killed it..)..
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
mtaylor
()
Date: March 10, 2012 22:13
Mr Belli is a Danish singer, big admirer of Jagger and Stones, done covers of their songs, started in Denmark in the the early 60'ies.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
slakka
()
Date: March 11, 2012 06:54
Hi Ronnie
Can we get your review of Sam Cutlers book please, or is it already up?
Always,
Slacks
Can we get your review of Sam Cutlers book please, or is it already up?
Always,
Slacks
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
tomk
()
Date: March 11, 2012 08:47
Thanks, Bmuseed, for all your input on this. Very interesting.
I should rephrase what I posted in my original post about "manipulating."
I was talking about the editing process, not the staging of shots or scenes.
I should rephrase what I posted in my original post about "manipulating."
I was talking about the editing process, not the staging of shots or scenes.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
melillo
()
Date: March 11, 2012 14:36
I had a hunch mick was under 5 foot ten , that is without his custom made high heel nikes of course, thanks bmuseed
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:26
Quote
slakka
Hi Ronnie
Can we get your review of Sam Cutlers book please, or is it already up?
Always,
Slacks
I have to recuse myself... I did the US/Canada publishing deal for him as well as the iPhone app--in the Apple app store.
ron
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 11, 2012 22:32
Quote
tomk
Thanks, Bmuseed, for all your input on this. Very interesting.
I should rephrase what I posted in my original post about "manipulating."
I was talking about the editing process, not the staging of shots or scenes.
Got it... all good..
on a separate note...I am smiling now as I recall a lot of the stuff no one has ever seen other than those going thru the Maysles footage..!! One gets used to people following you around with cameras, even big ones and modesty and sensibilities go out the window...
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
deardoctortake1
()
Date: March 12, 2012 03:38
I am smiling now as I recall a lot of the stuff no one has ever seen other than those going thru the Maysles footage..!!
Ron
It's fantastic that we have you here on this board. It's amazing how we can talk to an insider, ask questions and get responses from you. Please keep it up. I have been enjoying all of your insight.
Larry
Ron
It's fantastic that we have you here on this board. It's amazing how we can talk to an insider, ask questions and get responses from you. Please keep it up. I have been enjoying all of your insight.
Larry
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
bmuseed
()
Date: March 12, 2012 04:43
Quote
deardoctortake1
I am smiling now as I recall a lot of the stuff no one has ever seen other than those going thru the Maysles footage..!!
Ron
It's fantastic that we have you here on this board. It's amazing how we can talk to an insider, ask questions and get responses from you. Please keep it up. I have been enjoying all of your insight.
Larry
I have been listing more stories on my blog.. but I do enjoy the diversity and current info here..for the most part..
I hadn't 'dropped by in awhile and was delighted to see some things I could try and reply to..:-)
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
Title5Take1
()
Date: March 12, 2012 06:27
Incidentally, Brian Cox plays Melvin Belli effectively in the movie ZODIAC.
Re: "I just don't know what to tell you, Mr. Belli..."
Posted by:
jpasc95
()
Date: March 12, 2012 19:22
...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-12 19:23 by jpasc95.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-12 19:23 by jpasc95.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Online Users
hockenheim95 , marcovandereijk , micha063 , mick64 , nbutton , O2 , P@py , stonesmuziekfan , stonesurvive , vlover , wickerman
Guests:
1868
Record Number of Users:
206
on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests:
9627
on January 2, 2024 23:10