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Doxa
Yeah - to continue the theme discussed by Edward Twining - by the mid-70's they probaly emptied they pockets of certain riff-based rockers they had mastered in EXILE. GOATS HEAD SOUP only has "Star Sar" which is a kind of cartoon version of traditional berry-rocker. IORR they try to get there again but with non-inspired results, a'la "If You Can't Rock Me" and "Dance Little Sister". By contrast, they seemed to leave that deprtment out in BLACK & BLUE and try to find new tricks. "Crazy Mama" belong to still that category even though they have a new big 'fattier' and 'deeper' sound. Another and certainly better example is "Hand of Fate" where they sound actually mature and fresh. It has a certain depthness in it a s a rocker. More 'black and blue', actually. Funnily, it has a distinctive Tayloresque solo Taylor himself never had room to shine in studio... I wonder if they really did that in purpose to show Taylor and everyone else that his place can be easily filled if they feel like....

Now comparing IORR and B&B they are interesting albums showing the band at cross-roads. There are some elements of the future in IORR, such as teh funkiness of "Fingerprint File", the ryhthm experients of "Luxury" to find a new groove, etc but those are not really stressed much but instead the album relies heavily on the old tricks, and like still trying to milk out whatever they can from their old sounds of which they had made masterpieces just a few yaers ago (and for eaxmple, they perfected the ballad section of that style in GHS). In B&B those new experiments are in front, and the old style is just in the marginal. The opening track is a statement of the new groove, and the heavy ballads are not made to please teenager hearts, but sound full and mature. The contrast of Jagger, in terms of song delivery and tone, of IORR and B&B is a huge one. Now in hindsight one could say that Jagger shows in IORR early signs of formulaic 'peter pan' nasal delivery he has been famous since the late 80's. In B&B those are gone, and a new matured voice is present. In SOME GIRLS he found totally a new spark to his voice.

- Doxa

That's what I've been claiming here for a long time I'm glad someone else agrees on this (especially evident on Till The Next Goodbye and TWFNO).

Regarding IYCRM, for me, this is the track pointing toward the "new" (funky) sound as well (the bridge). But that sound was in the making on the GHS tour already (the funked up Heartbreaker, for instance).

Black And Blue is indeed an uneven album. But some of the songs, the production, the sound and the band's playing is simply stellar. That is not the case on IORR, imo. There are signs on what to come (Fingerprint File), but many of the songs are not well recorded, seemlingly. Even TWFNO has odd "holes" in it guitarwise, as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-16 12:27 by DandelionPowderman.

Sill to describe the ballad section of IORR.. I'm not yet satisfied what I have said so far. There are elements in them - especially in "Time Waits For No One" and "If You Really Want to Be My friend" - that tries to express self-reflective maturity in lyrics and in delivery that Jagger finally achieves in B&B (and losts about ever since). But the aims are very much based on the means of GHS; that partical style to sing that is absolute perfect and spot in in GHS - think of "Winter", "100 Years Ago", "Angie"... But it is not quite home with the aims of IORR songs; thereby the results in IORR ends up sounding a bit (or more) unconvincing and hollow. The voice and the 'message' - unlike in GHS and B&B - just don't quite match with each other.

- Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
Some great songs, horrendous production, imo.

Yes, exactly. The tracks themselves are not that bad, but its just so dull and un-energetic production. They push the right buttons but there seems to be so little energy in the fingers pushing, hehe.

DP

what do you mean for "horrendous" production?

C

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liddas
DP

what do you mean for "horrendous" production?

C

Drums that sound like cardboard boxes, guitars that sound lifeless and compressed, too long songs, bad mixing and an overall muddy soundscape, even worse than GHS, imo.

All this should be adressed to the producers, the glimmer twins.

Luckily, the next album had top notch production and sound, imo.

I really like the way people respect and talk about Black & Blue, one of my fave albums.

IORR is also great but yeah, the dolby, the dolby!

GHS's production is really a big element of the album and helps the songs reach higher levels, except for maybe on DWMD.

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MadMax
I really like the way people respect and talk about Black & Blue, one of my fave albums.

IORR is also great but yeah, the dolby, the dolby!

GHS's production is really a big element of the album and helps the songs reach higher levels, except for maybe on DWMD.

That is interesting, and I agree to an extent. For instance, the sound is very suitable for the sadness and the vulnerability of Coming Down Again, whilst some of the rockers (Mr. D, Silver Train) suffer for this approach, imo.

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Doxa
Now in hindsight one could say that Jagger shows in IORR early signs of formulaic 'peter pan' nasal delivery he has been famous since the late 80's. In B&B those are gone, and a new matured voice is present. In SOME GIRLS he found totally a new spark to his voice.

- Doxa

Very true, Doxa. IORR does almost represent a forward glance into the eighties, to the post TATTOO YOU output, where many of the things the Stones were temporarily suffering from on IORR, become permanent fixtures starting with UNDERCOVER. Lack of conviction, sketchy underdeveloped songs, and as you point out that 'formulaic 'peter pan' nasal delivery', which, while nowhere near as irritating as it would become decades later, is beginning to make its presence felt just a little. That last remark concerning Jagger's voice isn't actually something i had considered prior to your post, yet i think you make a very interesting point. Personally, i think Jagger begins to sing in an increasingly affected camp way post EXILE, especially where the ballads are concerned, and with 'Till The Next Goodbye' and 'If You Really Want To Be My Friend', it almost seems to be more as a means of masking those songs shortcomings. Comparing them with the more 'pure' Jagger vocal rendition of a song like 'Wild Horses', (which 'Till The Next Goodbye' is musically slghtly related to) is telling, because 'Wild Horses' tends to have a musical and lyrical grace, without the need for acting up so much in the vocal department. Yes, elements of the funky black sounds which begin on GOATS HEAD SOUP ('Heartbreaker' for example), continue to develop a little on IORR ('Fingerprint File', perhaps the bridge of 'If You Can't Rock Me' etc.), although i tend to think overall these are fairly minor details when looking at the much larger Stones-by-numbers picture, which looms over pretty much most of the IORR album. The Stones did manage to find a more convincing and committed musical statement with SOME GIRLS, like you say, and Jagger's voice also seemed to find a renewed sense of focus.

I think is the last real classic RS album; after that, i like a lot the RW cera, buat are very different RS.
That's why i think that IORR is a very great album, "maybe" the last one

This was my second Stones album (GHS being the first.) I always thought the way the first three songs naturally flowed into each other was brilliant. Especially when ATPTB stops and IORR starts right up. The effect is lost on CD reissues, but on the original vinyl- perfection. There are definitely other Stones albums that are "better", but this one is dear to me, as it was the first one I actually bought. (GHS was a gift.) I wore out the grooves on both these albums, knew every note, every yelp and howl that Jagger made, every solo, every drum beat...still brings me back to my childhood.
All in all, not much insight, just a few comments on how what some consider a mediocre Stones album changed my life.

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tommyquinn
This was my second Stones album (GHS being the first.) I always thought the way the first three songs naturally flowed into each other was brilliant. Especially when ATPTB stops and IORR starts right up. The effect is lost on CD reissues, but on the original vinyl- perfection. There are definitely other Stones albums that are "better", but this one is dear to me, as it was the first one I actually bought. (GHS was a gift.) I wore out the grooves on both these albums, knew every note, every yelp and howl that Jagger made, every solo, every drum beat...still brings me back to my childhood.
All in all, not much insight, just a few comments on how what some consider a mediocre Stones album changed my life.

It's a pretty long album, and that may have something to do with some songs starting right after the last one were finished. It may have affected the sound quality as well.

Third rank to Exile, Sticky Fingers in the seventies. Musically far better than Some Girls, two of the greatest Stones Ballads (Till the Next Goodbye, If You Really Want to be My Friend), one of the best Stones songs ever (Time Waits For No One), the complete album contains no weak song at all, great Keith solo on Ain't to Proud to Beg, all time great IORR (the song), great guitars on Little Sister (Keith, MT), the best Keithian riff of MJ (Fingerprint File). No filler, no disco shit ...

Many years ago i listened to it quite a lot, but in the mean-time it has lost its appeal to me. Overall i consider it their weakest album of the seventies. One of thhe weak points of it are the ballads, which are all way too long and sound forced to me. The faster songs are typical stones rockers, maybe too typical....the cover of the album is the worst cover of a stones album ever...

Now to the details: (1 - very weak to 5 brilliant)

1. If You Can't Rock Me = 5 (excellent opener, the song i loke most on it)
2. Ain't Too Proud To Beg = 2
3. IORR = 4
4. Till The Next Goodbye = 2
5. Time Waits For No One = 3
6. Luxury = 3 (great riff)
7. Dance Little Sister = 3
8. If You Really... = 1 (just boring, repetive and much too long)
9. Short And Curlies = 4
10.Fingerprint File = 3

The first album I heard.

From some point of view...my life changed.

The production: I've got a suspicion that The Stones' camp listened to John's
"Yellow Brick Road" and said, "The next one's gonna sound like that." Both have
that echo; both have that hollowed drum sound; the overall sound is antiseptic ...
the first record The Stones made that defined what came to be known as "corporate rock".

Yup this is maybe the first record where you can hear they are trying to copy the somebody elses sound.

... still, I like it!

Whats with people sayin If You Really Want To Be My Friend is too long...???

I wish it was 14 minutes long!!!

the ballads in this album are just wonderful... Till The Next Goodbye...

I like Luxury but they could have put Through The Lonely Nights instead...

i got a soft spot for stones ballads...

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Redhotcarpet
Yup this is maybe the first record where you can hear they are trying to copy the somebody elses sound.

I'd argue that the first record they tried to that was "England's Greatest Hitmakers"...

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KeithNacho
I think is the last real classic RS album; after that, i like a lot the RW cera, buat are very different RS.
That's why i think that IORR is a very great album, "maybe" the last one

Well, in a sense, KeithNacho, the Ronnie era Stones truly began on SOME GIRLS, where Ronnie was actually officially a member of the band at the time of recording. BLACK AND BLUE, where the Stones were very much auditioning guitar players at the time, still very much reflects the Mick Taylor era, with its fatter, and more sophisticated sound, and technically more accomplished musical vibe. In a sense, it's pretty close to GOATS HEAD SOUP in terms of maturity, despite the fact that Taylor has nothing to do with its recording, yet was heavily involved in many of the GOATS HEAD SOUP tracks. For whatever the shortcoming may be of these albums, they are never less than interesting, and even when on occasions the songs may lack a little in terms of precision and focus, as a musical experience they stand up very well. The ballads, especially, prove extremely effective - 'Winter', Angie', 'Fool To Cry' 'Memory Motel'. On those terms, i think IORR seems the odd one out, placed in the middle of those two albums, where a Stones-by-numbers approach seems the most dominant factor, even in light of it too, containing a couple of ballads, that fail to catch fire.

SOME GIRLS is the album the Stones needed to make, where they managed to strip themselves of what may have been considered their musical indulgencies, and get back to a more basic and more fundamental sound. The focus lacking on GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and BLACK AND BLUE is regained, and the Stones sound more fully committed and vital, and especially in light of what was happening in the music scene around that time - PUNK. Obviously, punk played a big part in their decision to shift gears. However, perhaps in retrospect, those earlier albums (with the exception of IORR) actually offer much more, in a purely musical sense, outside the context of the time they were recorded. SOME GIRLS, for me, was very much was of its time, and whereas IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL and BLACK AND BLUE were never seen as particularly contemporary, SOME GIRLS was. Maybe longterm, that has proved SOME GIRLS undoing, because i don't think it has aged especially well (it wears very thin pretty fast), yet SOME GIRLS did manage to maintain the Stones position as an important musical unit, when they were in danger of slipping. That at the very least kept the Stones ticking over for another two or three years.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-17 09:26 by Edward Twining.

The title track was the song that really got me into the Stones. I had heard the standard radio hits (Satisfaction, Get Off Of My Cloud, and the other stuff from the oldies stations, but not classic rock stations) but wasn't really a fan. I think I was a freshman in high school (around 1994) and I saw the video for IOR&R and I loved the song so much, and thought the video was so funny that I went out and got the album, so it was my first Stones album and I'm sentimental about it. It's not my favorite, but it is the album that introduced me to the wider world of the Stones and not just the early 60's stuff. I think Aftermath came next because right around that same time I heard "Paint It Black" during the credits of "Full Metal Jacket" when it was on cable one night and I was up late doing a school project. That song just floored me.

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loog droog

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Redhotcarpet
Yup this is maybe the first record where you can hear they are trying to copy the somebody elses sound.

I'd argue that the first record they tried to that was "England's Greatest Hitmakers"...

They found their own sound (Jimmy Miller) and style but on iorr they try to sound like other bands at the time. I dont think they did that in the early days, you can tell which studio they played in but on iorr it's not about studio. It works great when Mick sings but the murky mix...

I remember 1974 buying this album with the suspect hard-paper inner-sleeve-bag......and the colour on the outside-sleeve was as if it was spoiled by water, running away from it...It's only rock'n'roll and Ain't too proud to beg was the smashing hits then...

2 1 2 0

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Redhotcarpet

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loog droog

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Redhotcarpet
Yup this is maybe the first record where you can hear they are trying to copy the somebody elses sound.

I'd argue that the first record they tried to that was "England's Greatest Hitmakers"...

They found their own sound (Jimmy Miller) and style but on iorr they try to sound like other bands at the time. I dont think they did that in the early days, you can tell which studio they played in but on iorr it's not about studio. It works great when Mick sings but the murky mix...

You're kidding right...they tried to sound like black blues, r & b, and soul artists, the beatles, dylan...and that's just up to 1968.

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NoCode0680
The title track was the song that really got me into the Stones. I think I was a freshman in high school (around 1994) and I saw the video for IOR&R and I loved the song so much, and thought the video was so funny that I went out and got the album, so it was my first Stones album and I'm sentimental about it. It's not my favorite, but it is the album that introduced me to the wider world of the Stones and not just the early 60's stuff. I think Aftermath came next because right around that same time I heard "Paint It Black" during the credits of "Full Metal Jacket" when it was on cable one night and I was up late doing a school project. That song just floored me.

IORR, the title song, does have a certain edge, and within the context of the Stones catalogue i think it stands up fairly well, but in 74, i think it came across as a major disappointment. One thing i have always loved about the Stones is the fact that they had the ability not to take themselves too seriously. I think, of course, they took their art seriously in terms of them exploiting all they have in terms of ability, but they never did become overblown and pompous, like for example THE WHO, and they didn't necessarily believe they were on a mission to change the world. There may have been examples of them touching on certain social elements here and there within their songs,of course, and especially on STREET FIGHTING MAN, SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL, and GIMMIE SHELTER. However, they were really more about reflecting society than actually making changes. They were always ingenius, mind, musically, and lyrically, and rarely appeared to be repeating themselves. Many of Jagger's lyrics, also maintained an intelligence, and subtelty, which was suitably flexible in nature, to fit well alongside the musical variety.

Somehow though, with the IORR title track, and much of the album, they relinquished pretty much everything, to become simply a corporate brand, and a rock cliche, existing purely in the name of good old rock 'n' roll. Yes, there may be more reflective qualities here and there, and especially within TIME WAITS FOR NO-ONE, but it was almost like the Stones had decided they were through with appearing to try. Co-incidentally, this was pretty much happening with rock in more general terms, too. Popular music generally had really began to lose its impetus, and direction, and it began to appear ever more trivial as the mid seventies came into view. Maybe those other major players had burnt themselves out, too.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-18 09:50 by Edward Twining.