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Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 12, 2017 15:35

Following up on Jan and Luca's discussion about the 12x5 export album.
Always has been some mystery about the 12x5 export albums with demo sleeves.

London PS 402 made in the UK
London LL 3402 made in the UK
Decca SKLA 7591 made in Australia
Decca LKA 7591 made in Australia

My theory is as follows:

I would say that all these sleeves have been printed in the UK. They all have the same look and feel: semi-gloss and lighter than the laminated UK sleeves and they all have the printer mark CPL 1917 (see below pic). Then they were sent out to the US (London PS 402 and LL 3402) and Australia (SKLA 7591 and LKA 7591) in small quantities but never has been available in stores, even not for a short period. If that would have been the case, hundreds of copies should have been sold but fact is that we, hard core collectors and hunting for records on a daily base all over the WWW, can't seem to find these.

At the moment these sleeves arrived in the US and Australia, the 'normal' 12x5 sleeve was ready (printed in the US and Australia) so no need to distribute the sleeves to the record stores and the few which got out, were sent back or deleted upon Decca's request....





Hendrik Mulder



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-12 15:40 by Hendrik.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 12, 2017 15:54

No, Hendrik, these were not pressed in UK.
This is one of the few steady points, when coming to these records.
I'm afraid that we shoul look for more non-RS albums with CPL1917 to learn where they were pressed. Bye, Luca

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 12, 2017 16:21

Interesting to know why this is a steady point Luca; Can you explain pls? Really would like to know.

Would be great to find out what the exact story is..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-12 16:40 by Hendrik.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 12, 2017 20:28

1. Genuine British covers are signed by printer si
2. Genuine British covers are laminated
3. Genuine British covers have different flip-backs
4. You can't find any genuine British DECCA cover made like these
5. CPL1917 is not present on any genuine British cover of any record company

Most likely, CPL(established??)1917 is the printer that printed covers in a country where Artist of DECCA where distributed under DECCA's brand. I dare to say, within the Commonwealth. Sorry, I'm not able yo tell more.
In any case, these covers are not made in UK. Please, do not forget that all the export DECCA made always sport 'made in England'...
All the best,

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 12, 2017 21:27

Understood Luca and completely agree that non of the UK Stones albums has this lay out but never seen a Stones album from any country with this lay out either.
Therefor too narrow minded to think that the album can't be printed in the UK.

In my opinion this was a 'rush job' and therefor an exception compared to the other export sleeves.
I believe that Decca England simply instructed another company to make these sleeves quick because the regular sleeves in the USA and Australia maybe weren't ready in time but at the time these sleeves arrived in the US and Australia, the 'normal' 12x5 sleeve was ready (printed in the US and Australia) so no need to distribute the 'rush job' sleeves to the record stores anymore and the few which got out, were sent back or deleted upon Decca's request.

Also found the following, no Stones related, sleeve with the same lay out made by Columbia (in the UK!).



Hendrik Mulder



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-14 20:13 by Hendrik.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: April 12, 2017 21:39

Quote
Hendrik

Also found the following, no Stones related, sleeve with the same lay out made by Columbia (in the UK!) and CPL could mean something like Columbia Phonograph Ltd or something like that....

Hendrik Mulder

Unlikely. Columbia was part of EMI and wouldn't have had their own printing facility.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 12, 2017 21:43

Obviously above record, with the same lay out as the rare 12x5 sleeves, is printed in the UK...


Hendrik Mulder

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 12, 2017 21:51

DECCA is DECCA and Columbia is Columbia. We're talking about DECCA, not about other companies. On top of that, archivists must stick to facts and not 'believe' and 'maybe'. Facts are that we don' know where these covers were made and no one of us can add something revealing.
My researches on the web for cpl tell me it stands for corporal, in military terms. I've found no printers in the World associated to cpl1917. This is a fact.
Any alternative idea? More than welcome...

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 12, 2017 22:18

Again Luca, WE DON'T KNOW THE FACTS....thats the reason why we are posting about this topic.

You said that "In any case, these covers are not made in UK". Also this is not a fact but an assumption.

All is still a mystery about these sleeves and it's too narrow minded to think that these sleeves are not made in the UK because they look different than all other Stones/Decca sleeves in the UK.....

I brought up my alternative idea that's is not unlikely that the sleeves are made in the UK and I explained why...you got any? More than welcome....

Hendrik Mulder



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-13 07:47 by Hendrik.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: April 13, 2017 05:45

don't know if this adds or subtracts or does anything to this conversation, but I've found the sale of this on popsike from 2005:

[www.popsike.com]


ROLLING STONES - 12X5 MONO UK-EXPORT LP LL 3402 LONDON

End Price: USD 1399
(EUR 1160)
Start Price: USD 1399
End Date: 2005-02-18

Start Date: 2005-02-08
price rating
average price
Rating: 3.5 /5 ( 15 votes)
Rate it!
Number of bids: 1
Country: Sweden
Auctioned at: ebay
ROLLING STONES - 12X5 MONO UK-EXPORT LP LL 3402 LONDON


ROLLING STONES - 12X5 MONO UK-EXPORT LP DIFFERENT COVER

Hello fans!

Here is the very rare original LP that the magazine Record Collector have covered in two issues. The very rare LP LL 3402 MONO with a different export cover on the label and the album London. It also has a misspelling on the third track on side two on the album cover. It says "Congradulations" instead of Congratulations. The printing on the back cover appears to be in typewriter like font in comparison to the standard typeset style of the later stock issue. It has the small printing to the right saying CPL 1917 above LL 3402 on the back cover. It also has the semi-circular cut on the top and bottom of the backside of the album cover. The record is EX on side one and VG+ on side two. For true fans only! I'm selling this rare item because I'm going to buy one Ronnie Wood litograph.
This is probably the rarest UK London export press.
Happy bidding!

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: April 13, 2017 05:48


Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 13, 2017 23:03

The more I think about it the more Im sure that Decca used an alternative sleeve manufacturer (just like Columbia did with the example above) for this 12x5 record and that the sleeve is printed in the UK.
Then sent out to the US (London sleeves) and Australia (Decca sleeves) but upon arrival, not needed anymore because the normal 12x5 covers were ready....
Then sent back or deleted but officially not sold into stores and very limited qty got out and that explains why they are so hard to find these days.

Hendrik Mulder

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 13, 2017 23:19

Quote
1963luca0
1. Genuine British covers are signed by printer si
2. Genuine British covers are laminated
3. Genuine British covers have different flip-backs
4. You can't find any genuine British DECCA cover made like these

Below picture changes everything and indicates for me that the alternative 12x5 sleeve is printed in the UK.




Hendrik Mulder



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-13 23:24 by Hendrik.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 14, 2017 06:05

Nice catch!
Still, this confirms tha 'made in England' is always present on covers printed in England.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Hendrik ()
Date: April 14, 2017 13:03

Quote
1963luca0
Nice catch!
Still, this confirms tha 'made in England' is always present on covers printed in England.

No, it only indicates that also Decca sleeves have this typical layout.
If 'made in England' is not present on the sleeve, doesn't mean that it hasn't been printed in England.
The 12x5 demo sleeve further indicates that the country where the sleeve is printed, is not always present on the sleeve.

The 12x5 demo sleeves always have been a mystery but I believe that these, as an exception, were made in the UK because of delays of the original 12x5 sleeve in the USA (and Australia). Therefor Decca UK instructed a local sleeve manufacturer to print a number of this quick designed' 12x5 sleeve...

Hendrik Mulder

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: TooTough ()
Date: April 14, 2017 16:48

Bought in Utrecht last weekend:

Mono / Let It Bleed / UK 1A/2A matrix / complete with
sticker and poster -- vinyl is in GREAT condition thumbs up




Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: frankotero ()
Date: April 14, 2017 18:23

TooTough, congratulations. This is a highlight in any Stones Fan's collection. Enjoy!

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: April 16, 2017 01:57

Quote
TooTough
Bought in Utrecht last weekend:

Mono / Let It Bleed / UK 1A/2A matrix / complete with
sticker and poster -- vinyl is in GREAT condition thumbs up


BUT you must tell us what you paid for it. This is one gap still in my own collection!

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: TooTough ()
Date: April 16, 2017 02:01

Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
TooTough
Bought in Utrecht last weekend:

Mono / Let It Bleed / UK 1A/2A matrix / complete with
sticker and poster -- vinyl is in GREAT condition thumbs up


BUT you must tell us what you paid for it. This is one gap still in my own collection!

It was an English guy: He wanted 375 € (which already is cheap).
I said 300, he said 325 - deal! A bargain. smileys with beer


Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: treaclefingers ()
Date: April 16, 2017 02:04

Quote
TooTough
Quote
treaclefingers
Quote
TooTough
Bought in Utrecht last weekend:

Mono / Let It Bleed / UK 1A/2A matrix / complete with
sticker and poster -- vinyl is in GREAT condition thumbs up


BUT you must tell us what you paid for it. This is one gap still in my own collection!

It was an English guy: He wanted 375 € (which already is cheap).
I said 300, he said 325 - deal! A bargain. smileys with beer

Good for you and congrats!

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: April 16, 2017 05:21

Quote
TooTough
Bought in Utrecht last weekend:

Mono / Let It Bleed / UK 1A/2A matrix / complete with
sticker and poster -- vinyl is in GREAT condition thumbs up

Checking I discover that my UK Mono version has these same Matrix Numbers.

Are there any music/mixing etc differences between these matrix numbers and later ones?

--
Captain Corella
50+ Years a Fan

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Honestman ()
Date: April 16, 2017 12:10

Quote
TooTough
...He wanted 375 € (which already is cheap).
I said 300, he said 325 - deal! A bargain. smileys with beer

It all depends on how many $$$$ you earn each month winking smiley

HMN
StonesCave

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 16, 2017 13:18

Checked all my open/ boxed MONO LIB and they all have 2A/ 1A matrices.
They all were short lived, most likely additional matrices were not needed.
I guess they play the same mix, equalization and sound.
Bye,

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: ozstonesfan ()
Date: April 16, 2017 14:27

There is a 1A/1A matrix but not aware of any differences between this and later pressings in terms of sound.

Cheers
Andrew

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: frankotero ()
Date: April 16, 2017 15:04

Hmm, my LIB mono has 2A/2A matrix. Seems unusual given it was a short lived pressing.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 16, 2017 16:14

All in all, we might dare to say that they made a maximum of two couples of matrices, not more

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: tioms ()
Date: April 16, 2017 19:39

treacelefingers,
Here is one to close your collection gap.
[www.benl.ebay.be]
I've two of them, both 1A-2A (non boxed)
1) Sticker & poster
1) Sticker & poster & booklet
Greets,

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Jan Richards ()
Date: April 17, 2017 10:21

About the Mono LIB

I have three copies, one non-boxed and two boxed with the following matrix numbers
-1A / -2A which has a boxed label
-2A / -1A which has a boxed label
-2A / -2A which has a non-boxed label
And confirmed by Andrew, -1A / -1A is also existing. So we have four combinations confirmed. All of these matrix numbers can be found with either non-boxed or boxed labels. They were used at the plants on the same time, one pressing machine could run LP's with boxed labels and the next machine could run LP's with the non-boxed labels. Same with stereo LIB's, I even have a stereo LIB that has boxed on one side and non-boxed on the other side.

My personal opinion, that I have told many times before, is that LIB mono is way over-priced. At least 30-40 thousand mono LIB's were pressed and you can find many on sale on e-bay on the same time. It is rare compared to stereo versions as they printed millions of them during the first two - three years of production, but still, mono is just a click away to get anyhow.

Just had a quick look at UK e-bay and I found eight mono LIB's within one minute..... Is this a rare record then? Not in my opinion

Jan Richards

[www.stonesondecca.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-17 10:30 by Jan Richards.

Re: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: Jan Richards ()
Date: April 17, 2017 11:05

About the sleeve on 12 x 5 advance / test sleeve versions.

I went into my James Last and assorted section of my record collection to look at my old non-stones Decca's and this is what I found. Three sleeves made in England with the same cut as 12x5. None of them has the manufacturer mentioned. But this would prove that Decca was using the same sleeve manufacturer as EMI in the 50's and early 60's. These sleeves on picture were made in 1955 and 1959.

My take on the scenario would be like this, not confirmed but just my opinion:
There was obviously a great rush at Decca to get sleeves made for the 12x5 album. They even did not have time to get the final artwork done, they just had to get sleeves kind of NOW. So they took the picture from the first album to be used on the front. Then they called up all three sleeve manufacturers they used at the time and no one of them could produce sleeves this week and not even the next week.
So what did the person at Decca sleeve department do, yes he looked up the phone number for that other sleeve maker that I used to call four five years back, lets see if they can make sleeves for me. So he did and the maker had a slot in their production line. The Decca guy even said "let's forget the lamination, I don't have time to wait for that, just do the sleeves"

I believe that these sleeves were made in UK. Now we only need to put a name on the manufacturer as well. Same company was used by EMI and the different labels connected to EMI









Jan Richards

[www.stonesondecca.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-21 22:49 by Jan Richards.

grinning smileyRe: Let's talk RARE Stones vinyl
Posted by: TooTough ()
Date: April 17, 2017 13:07

Quote
Jan Richards
About the Mono LIB [...]

My personal opinion, that I have told many times before, is that LIB mono is way
over-priced. At least 30-40 thousand mono LIB's were pressed and you can find
many on sale on e-bay on the same time. It is rare compared to stereo versions as
they printed millions of them during the first two - three years of production,
but still, mono is just a click away to get anyhow.

Just had a quick look at UK e-bay and I found eight mono LIB's within one
minute..... Is this a rare record then? Not in my opinion

Jan,
I used the infos on your site to get a non-boxed mono LIB.
Thanks for the efforts on your site.

But: I have been watching the market for five years now to get a vg LIB mono
vinyl with sticker and poster. If the matrix was right and the condition was
vg or vg+ or exc, the price mostly went through the roof (mainly 400 € and
more). In Utrecht last week there were 600 sellers from all over the world,
and I saw just one (the copy I bought) mono LIB as described.

Other rarities I saw was the US Promotional album (for 1200€, yes, I know
about the UK version) and the first Songs Of promo from the US (RRCircus
cover) for 2200 € (!). That´s crazy and overpriced. But I still believe
that the 325 for my LIB was a "bargain".

And Honestman, That money for the fair I had saved over a few months, btw.grinning smiley





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-04-17 13:08 by TooTough.

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