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Mel Belli
Forgive me if there's already a thread pegged to this book. ...
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Mel Belli
Forgive me if there's already a thread pegged to this book. ...
Just cracked it a couple days ago. Interesting read so far, in particular Trynka's assertion that Keith surely must have seen Brian play in open-G tuning long before he ever met Ry Cooder. In effect, Trynka clears Keith of the charge of having ripped off Cooder, but, in turn, indicts him for failing to acknowledge Brian in the same matter.
I'm thinking there's a pretty simple explanation for this — and maybe it's something you all have chewed on already. Brian's playing in open-G was in the conventional ... I shouldn't say "conventional." In Brian's time and place, it was actually quite esoteric. ... Let's just say Brian used the tuning to play slide in the style that would eventually become familiar to most blues guitarists.
Ry Cooder helped Keith apply the tuning in a nonslide situation. In my own opinion, Cooder was the key to Keith's discovering that the I-IV chord move he was already doing with his index, second, and third fingers on standard-tuning riffs like "19th Nervous Breakdown," and open-D riffs like "Street Fighting Man," could be done with more ease and panache in the open-G tuning.
If this is true, Keith isn't really giving Brian short shrift at all. ...
Overall, it seems to me that Trynka overestimates Brian's chops as a guitarist. Not to knock the guy — he certainly boasted many virtues as a musician — but at one point, Trynka notes that Brian was into Charlie Christian(!). I mean, maybe that was the case, but can anyone point me to any lick, in any song, where Brian "blows through the changes" like a jazz guitarist? Or if it was more about sophisticated chord voicings — where are those?
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Mel Belli
If this is true, Keith isn't really giving Brian short shrift at all.
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Redhotcarpet
Keith ripped Ry Cooder off to 100% and said so himself. It's not the tuning, it's the style, licks, rhythm patterns etc.
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LieB
Ditto, what 71Tele said. And I agree with Naturalust as well. It's easy to hear the similarities between Keith's open G playing, especially the early stuff like Honky Tonk Women, and Ry Cooder's style. I'm sure Ry utilized open G in a more sophisticated and diverse manner, but Keith made it his own as well. Songs like Happy and CYHMK have a uniqueness and power to them that could not have come from Ry Cooder or Brian Jones.
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Koen
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar. He must have stolen Keith's open G tuning
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71TeleQuote
Koen
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar. He must have stolen Keith's open G tuning
You're right!
The opening riff can be played respectably in standard tuning but Mick does have open 'G' chops shown in "Doom and Gloom".Quote
71Tele
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar, but did he write it in open G, or did Keith transpose it from what Mick gave him?
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DoomandGloomThe opening riff can be played respectably in standard tuning but Mick does have open 'G' chops shown in "Doom and Gloom".Quote
71Tele
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar, but did he write it in open G, or did Keith transpose it from what Mick gave him?
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Mel Belli
Forgive me if there's already a thread pegged to this book. ...
Just cracked it a couple days ago. Interesting read so far, in particular Trynka's assertion that Keith surely must have seen Brian play in open-G tuning long before he ever met Ry Cooder. In effect, Trynka clears Keith of the charge of having ripped off Cooder, but, in turn, indicts him for failing to acknowledge Brian in the same matter.
I'm thinking there's a pretty simple explanation for this — and maybe it's something you all have chewed on already. Brian's playing in open-G was in the conventional ... I shouldn't say "conventional." In Brian's time and place, it was actually quite esoteric. ... Let's just say Brian used the tuning to play slide in the style that would eventually become familiar to most blues guitarists.
Ry Cooder helped Keith apply the tuning in a nonslide situation. In my own opinion, Cooder was the key to Keith's discovering that the I-IV chord move he was already doing with his index, second, and third fingers on standard-tuning riffs like "19th Nervous Breakdown," and open-D riffs like "Street Fighting Man," could be done with more ease and panache in the open-G tuning.
If this is true, Keith isn't really giving Brian short shrift at all. ...
Overall, it seems to me that Trynka overestimates Brian's chops as a guitarist. Not to knock the guy — he certainly boasted many virtues as a musician — but at one point, Trynka notes that Brian was into Charlie Christian(!). I mean, maybe that was the case, but can anyone point me to any lick, in any song, where Brian "blows through the changes" like a jazz guitarist? Or if it was more about sophisticated chord voicings — where are those?
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Mathijs
Brian used both open G (LLR) and open E (Wanna Be Your Man, Mona) already in 1963, Keith started with open E and D in 1968, and due to Ry Cooder AND Jesse Ed Davies with open G in late 1968 or early 1969. By 1968 Ry Cooder already had just about every open G lick under his sleave, and Richards literally took about all to write his own open G book. Listen to Memo From Turner and the acoustic on Downtown Suzie, and that has each and every lick played by Cooder that would turn up in Richards book of licks later on.Honky Tonk Woman sounds very much like a warm-up by Ry Cooder.
Mathijs
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NaturalustQuote
71TeleQuote
Koen
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar. He must have stolen Keith's open G tuning
You're right!
or...Jagger ripped off Brian for the tuning, Ry for the technique, Keith for the rhythm, James brown for the moves, probably Bill for the riff if you ask Bill, and at least a few old bluesman for the lyrics.
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DandelionPowderman
Is Mona really in open E? Sounds like Brian is playing straight chords + octave thirds on the three lightest strings where he is descending. Well, it could sound very similar in both tunings, I suppose..
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RipThisBoneQuote
Mathijs
Brian used both open G (LLR) and open E (Wanna Be Your Man, Mona) already in 1963, Keith started with open E and D in 1968, and due to Ry Cooder AND Jesse Ed Davies with open G in late 1968 or early 1969. By 1968 Ry Cooder already had just about every open G lick under his sleave, and Richards literally took about all to write his own open G book. Listen to Memo From Turner and the acoustic on Downtown Suzie, and that has each and every lick played by Cooder that would turn up in Richards book of licks later on.Honky Tonk Woman sounds very much like a warm-up by Ry Cooder.
Mathijs
And after that Keith took it somewhere else from the 70's, to a different planet so to speak.
Quoting 71Tele:
Keith did what all good players do: He was influenced by people. Borrowed a little, stole a little, but then gave it his own unique twist. The stuff about him supposedly "stealing" from Ry is overblown. If that's true, then who did Ry steal from? Others HE lsitened to when developing HIS style. If Keith had continued to play like Ry for years after 1969 that would be one thing, but he obviously didn't, and as much as I like Ry Cooder, he could never have written Brown Sugar or Rocks Off or Start Me Up.
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71Tele
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar, but did he write it in open G, or did Keith transpose it from what Mick gave him?
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RedhotcarpetQuote
RipThisBoneQuote
Mathijs
Brian used both open G (LLR) and open E (Wanna Be Your Man, Mona) already in 1963, Keith started with open E and D in 1968, and due to Ry Cooder AND Jesse Ed Davies with open G in late 1968 or early 1969. By 1968 Ry Cooder already had just about every open G lick under his sleave, and Richards literally took about all to write his own open G book. Listen to Memo From Turner and the acoustic on Downtown Suzie, and that has each and every lick played by Cooder that would turn up in Richards book of licks later on.Honky Tonk Woman sounds very much like a warm-up by Ry Cooder.
Mathijs
And after that Keith took it somewhere else from the 70's, to a different planet so to speak.
Quoting 71Tele:
Keith did what all good players do: He was influenced by people. Borrowed a little, stole a little, but then gave it his own unique twist. The stuff about him supposedly "stealing" from Ry is overblown. If that's true, then who did Ry steal from? Others HE lsitened to when developing HIS style. If Keith had continued to play like Ry for years after 1969 that would be one thing, but he obviously didn't, and as much as I like Ry Cooder, he could never have written Brown Sugar or Rocks Off or Start Me Up.
Nor could Keith. Mick wrote Brown Sugar.
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bleedingmanQuote
71Tele
Jagger wrote Brown Sugar, but did he write it in open G, or did Keith transpose it from what Mick gave him?