All this talk about Charlie joining the Stones in 2013, or 2012, made me start thinking about this topic. Who was this man and is he still living? Is there any film of his playing drums with the other Stones, or with some other group?
I remember one of the Stones saying that he was not that good, or am I thinking about the Beatles earlier drummer, the one before Ringo.

Was this Stones drummer any good?

I thought it was Tony Chapman, the man who brought Bill Wyman to the Stones. (Where they'd both been in The Cliftons).

here's a bit of discussion of it: [www.iorr.org]\
Tony Chapman apparently wasn't too red hot but Carlo Little (who's dead) was an esteemed drummer
and Mick Avory (who's still alive) did all right with the Kinks

I did read an article which was an interview with Dick Taylor, the Stones original bass player, where he stated that Charlie DID play intermittently with the Stones before he officially joined.

Just to verify, this interview with Dick Taylor was through Richie Unterberger at

www.richieunterberger.com/taylor.HTML



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-19 02:00 by Blue.

One of the Stones' first drummers recently sold burgers and hotdogs outside of Wembly Stadium (London) when the Stones played there a few years ago. I think he was called Carlo Little?

EDIT: it was Carlo Little, see here [www.carlolittle.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-19 13:01 by WeLoveYou.

Here some more of Carlo Little:





- Doxa

Does anybody know what became of Tony Chapman. Bill Wyman quotes him in Stone Alone, he obviously admitted that the Stones were a number too big for him.

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Blue
Just to verify, this interview with Dick Taylor was through Richie Unterberger at

www.richieunterberger.com/taylor.HTML

Here is a link that actually works: [www.richieunterberger.com]

Koen, thanks for correcting this.

Funny to think about what would become of the sound of The Rolling Stones is Carlo Little had acceped Brian's demand to join the band. Seemingly Carlo Little is the guy who affected a lot to the hard drumming school of British drummers... he personally gave lessons to Keith Moon, and also Mitch Mitchell and John Bonham have acknowledged his fundamental influence to their playing. Here is what Mick Jagger says of him:

"We used to have these other drummers, including Tony Chapman, Mick Avory, and Carlo Little... Carlo used to play these great fast eights, just like the early days of power drumming, the kind of thing that John Bonham used to play later on with Led Zeppelin. All the American drummers - DJ Fontana or JM Van Eaton, the drummer with Jerry Lee Lewis' band - were much lighter players. They came out of traditional country music backgrounds and did these little shuffles, whereas the drummers with Little Richard came from a kind of jump music background - "babadoom, babadoom" stuff - which they played very hard, and which formed the basis for drummers like Bonham and Keith Moon. When we played with Carlo Little he would put all this stuff into the band. It was very exciting to play it but Charlie had no knowledge of that so he just played with more of a jazz feel." (Mick Jagger, ACCORDING TO THE ROLLING STONES)

- Doxa

Do you think Carlo is puffing himself up a bit in the history of the group? To say that he recommended Charlie Watts makes it sound like they didn't know who Charlie was. But that doesn't seem likely as Charlie was part of that whole Alexis Korner scene. And Charlie was no more available for a full time gig than Carlo was. The interviewers are pretty hard on Carlo, making him sound like an idiot to his face. How about a little humanity, you twerps.

Who recommended Charlie to the Stones? Ginger Baker or Carlo Little? Or both? (Or neither...?)

In the above video Carlo Little says,"Mick, Keith and Brian—they said, `We’re forming a band and we need a drummer, would you help us out?’ And I said, `Well, I can’t really, I’ve got to earn a living, try Charlie Watts.’ And the rest is history.”

But the following is from a WALL STREET JOURNAL interview (this week) with Ginger Baker:

"In 1961 and '62, Mr. Baker continued playing jazz—including gigs with the Bert Courtley Sextet, where he first met Mr. Bruce. As the English economy improved in the early 1960s and a more youthful London emerged, many younger jazz players gravitated to big-beat blues and R&B bands, which offered more work and better pay.

"One of those bands was Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated. `Charlie Watts was the drummer and a big fan of mine. He gave up the drum chair for me in '62. Charlie told me he didn't want to be a musician, that there wasn't any security in it. Can you imagine? A short time later, Mick [Jagger] and Brian [Jones] said they were forming a band and needed a drummer. I recommended Charlie.'"

Link to Baker WSJ piece >>> [online.wsj.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-10 18:30 by Title5Take1.

I have had the picture that having Charlie was their own idea (or originally: wish). That they know him and wanted to have him. But who knows... But wasn't Charlie involved in Blues Incorporated when Brian, Mick and Keith occasionally performed with them? They must have at least known him to an extent. But then I recall Keith saying something to the effect that Charlie was in another league than them, and it took some time to convince him to join in (in which Brian seemingly was dominant). It was not like "hey you there! get your ass here, we chose you, lucky bastard!"

But then again, they were in a need of regular - or even occasional - drummer in the early days, so they might have asked from different people some help, and who knows if both Carlo Little and Ginger Baker both were right in their claims. Maybe they both encouraged Brian's clan to ask Charlie. Good recommendations...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-10 23:18 by Doxa.

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Doxa
I have had the picture that having Charlie was their own idea (or originally: wish). That they know him and wanted to have him. But who knows... But wasn't Charlie involved in Blues Incorporated when Brian, Mick and Keith occasionally performed with them? They must have at least known him to an extent. But then I recall Keith saying something to the effect that Charlie was in another league than them, and it took some time to convince him to join in (in which Brian seemingly was dominant). It was not like "hey you there! get your ass here, we chose you, lucky bastard!"

But then again, they were in a need of regular drummer in the early days, so they might have asked from different people some help, and who knows if both Carlo Little and Ginger Baker both were right in their claims. Maybe they both encouraged Brian's clan to ask Charlie. Good recommendations...

- Doxa

Mick, unlike Brian and Keith, was more than an occasional performer with Blues Inc.


Charlie behind Cyril Davies (you can just make out his ear!)




"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Yeah, Mick was a regular singer more or less (there were three of them, right?), doing some songs every night. (But did Mick left that spot after the first Stones gig, in which they, of course, substituted Blues Incorporated?)

And in a way, having this little Blues Incorporated career, he had most 'name' of them all, to an extent that the first Stones gig was advertised as Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones... Which surely made Brian as happy as Keith many, many years later seeing some shows advertised alike...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-10 23:41 by Doxa.

When I see Carlo Little and Ginger Baker claim they recommended Charlie, I think of Jeff Beck's (dubious) claim that he rejected the Stones during his Black and Blue try out and he said, "You guys should call Ronnie Wood." (Never mind Keith was basically living with Ronnie shortly before.) Or when Mal Evans said he wrote half the lyrics to (the song) Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. And Paul later said, "Uh, actually, Mal and I were on a plane and the airline meals included salt and pepper packets, and we were messing with the words "salt and pepper," but I'm the one who twisted them to "Sergeant Pepper." This was just the title. But later Mal expands this moment to "I wrote half the lyrics." Ray Manzarek said he and Jim Morrison were on the Venice beach together when a beautiful black woman walked by, and Jim said "Hello, I love you," and Ray said, "Absolutely!" And then Jim turned that moment into a song. But actually this happened to Jim before Ray knew Jim was even living at Venice beach, before they bumped into each other there. The inspiration happened, but in Ray's absence.

I'm reminded of JFK's quote, "Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan."

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Doxa

And in a way, having this little Blues Incorporated career, he had most 'name' of them all, to an extent that the first Stones gig was advertised as Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones... Which surely made Brian as happy as Keith many, many years later seeing some shows advertised alike...

- Doxa

Yeah, that must have stung his fragile ego.

The first drummer they used for their first gig (7/12/62) was Tony Chapman. Although it has been rumored to be Mick Avory. After an interview I did with Avory
he said that he had done maybe two rehearsals with the Stones right before that first gifg. He said he recieved a phone call from Ian Stewart saying that the Drummer they were using (Chapman) will be doing the gig instead. Avory said he had never seen the Stones play live until they (The Kinks) and the Stones were on the same TV show together (RSG). It was also thought Charlie Watts played the first gig, but Charlie was playing with Alexis Korner's band that night on the BBC radio "Jazz Club" the reason the Stones got their gig at the Marquee Club in the first place. A tape of that radio broadcast has an introduction of Charlie Watts playing that night. Another drummer they used before Charlie officailly joined the band was Carlo Little. A rumored drummer although I have found no proof he ever played with the Stones was a jazz drummer with a very popular jazz band at the time, was Steve Harris. I wouldn't be surprised if they (the Stones) used Charlie wATTS FOR A ONE OFF GIG IN 1962, In a interview Charlie said that he had sat in on a rehearsal or two back in 1962 with the Stones which makes me believe it was possible he sat in on a gig, thinking nothing of it.

Mick Avory also denies having played at the Marquee with the Stones - in the Kinks book "God Save The Kinks", which I'm reading at the moment.

Both Keith and Bill claim he did, though

Bill is relying on the words of others because he wasn't around. Keith, well, Keith has an interesting memory.

If Avory say's he didn't and has given quite reasonable explanations for why he didn't seems best to take his wor for it. Rehearsed a few times, then wasn't needed as they were using Tony Chapman.

Seems most likely it was Tony.

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His Majesty
Bill is relying on the words of others because he wasn't around. Keith, well, Keith has an interesting memory.

If Avory say's he didn't and has given quite reasonable explanations for why he didn't seems best to take his wor for it. Rehearsed a few times, then wasn't needed as they were using Tony Chapman.

Seems most likely it was Tony.

Even without a reasonable explanation, I'd believe him

KOK : It is said that you had played several gigs with the Rolling Stones before you joined The Kinks. Did you have any doubts about joining and have you ever had any regrets that you decided to play with The Kinks.

MA : No, I didn't actually play a gig with the Stones. I just rehearsed to do a gig with them, but it never happened. They told me they were looking for a permanent drummer, but I had a day job the other side of London and didn't envisage playing in a band for a living.

It was two years later that I joined the Kinks and it was quite an adjustment for me, but I had no regrets, certainly not musically.

[kastoffkinks.co.uk]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

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with sssoul

and Mick Avory (who's still alive) did all right with the Kinks

Whilst I am sure that Avory developed to become quite the competent drummer in time, it was session-musician Bobby Graham whose skills were preferred on the majority of early Kinks recordings. Didn’t Richards or Jagger once make reference to how ‘awful’ Avory was, or am I misremembering?

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Big Al

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with sssoul

and Mick Avory (who's still alive) did all right with the Kinks

Whilst I am sure that Avory developed to become quite the competent drummer in time, it was session-musician Bobby Graham whose skills were preferred on the majority of early Kinks recordings. Didn’t Richards or Jagger once make reference to how ‘awful’ Avory was, or am I misremembering?

Yes, they (Keith for sure) did.

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Big Al

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with sssoul

and Mick Avory (who's still alive) did all right with the Kinks

Whilst I am sure that Avory developed to become quite the competent drummer in time, it was session-musician Bobby Graham whose skills were preferred on the majority of early Kinks recordings. Didn’t Richards or Jagger once make reference to how ‘awful’ Avory was, or am I misremembering?

Dave Davies explains, from a 1996 magazine interview (with Peter Dogget, Record Review, April 1996):

Is it true that Mick didn't play on the Kinks records?

He certainly didn't play on the original records, because we were auditioning drummers right up until we did our first gigs. We used a sessionman on "You Really Got Me", "All Day and All of the Night", "Tired of Waiting For You", because Mick was slowly being integrated into the recording side. He played on the albums, but not on the early singles, up to "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy", I think. Later on, he played on most records until he left, except for some tracks on "Misfits", because we were going through a really strange time. That was another period when Ray and I joined forces again in a crisis, with this feeling that we still had something left to do, that it wasn't over yet.

Full interview at: [www.davedavies.com]

All right it's time to let the cat out of the bag.... it was me...began banging things together in '56" and am still going today!

flilflam, re Beatles' drummer before Ringo was Pete Best. Read a quote by John Lennon re that decision something to the effect of....Pete was a better drummer but Ringo was a better Beatle...

Gene Krupa

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owlbynite
flilflam, re Beatles' drummer before Ringo was Pete Best. Read a quote by John Lennon re that decision something to the effect of....Pete was a better drummer but Ringo was a better Beatle...

That's not at all true. Pete Best was not regarded as a good drummer by anyone, including Pete Best.

The Beatles were asked repeatedly to remove him from the band before they did, for no reason other than his playing. He was in fact extremely popular with their fans and there was great speculation that they would lose momentum when they booted him.

For most of their live songs in Hambur he can be heard playing 4 on the floor because he was so poor at keeping time and holding the band together.

This is well documented in the recent Beatles biography "Tune In" which I highly recommend to anyone who cares.