I listened to my Deluxe Edition (with the B-Sides) of A Bigger Bang for the first time in years while driving in my car the other day. I was struck by how much excellent material there was and how the poor song selection and sequencing undermined what should have been a phenomenal late-career release.

I decided to test my theory and I reconstituted the album as I would have liked it to be. Basically the Stones blew it with A Bigger Bang. Sure, it sold 2.5 million copies, but that number could have been doubled with more judicious song selection, a more relevant lead-off single, better production, proper sequencing, and consequent support of the material on the live stage. Nevermind the sales (who cares at this point)...the music presentation should have been far more dynamic. So I decided to prune and rearrange and reconstitute the damned disc and this is what I came up with as my A Bigger Bang:

Track 1. Rough Justice
Track 2. Under The Radar (killer slide work from Ronnie)
Track 3. Dangerous Beauty
Track 4. It Won't Take Long (early outtake mix - very rough and nasty)
Track 5. Back Of My Hand
Track 6. Oh No, Not You Again (early outtake mix - very tough and dirty...wow)
Track 7. Driving Too Fast (early outtake mix - sloppy and longer and brilliant)
Track 8. Rain Fall Down
Track 9. Let Me Down Slow (early outtakes mix - Keef pickin'+Ronnies' great slide outro...awesome)
Track 10. This Place Is Empty
Track 11. Laugh, I Nearly Died

So yesterday I popped the Frankestein-disc into my car stereo in preparation for a long drive...and turned up the volume. I was blown away. This album was the best thing I'd heard from the Stones since Tattoo You, (I know...everyone says this for every new release the last 30 years). It was killer. It sounded vital and raw and tough and relevant...like it mattered. Every song led naturally into the next and the album flowed better than anything since Some Girls...closing with Laugh, I Nearly Died reminded me of when the Stones would end their albums with reflective, compelling dramaturgy, (Moonlight Mile, You Can't Always Get What You Want, Memory Motel, Waiting On A Friend).

The music whipsawed me and I was exhilarated. The length of the album was under 50 minutes - like all their single-disc classics of yore - and it felt like the album they'd been trying to make for ages...and this tough bitch of a disc was hidden under the flab of the bloated original (official release) A Bigger Bang! To make sure I wasn't hallucinating on carbon monoxide fumes during my drive I listened to this album on my home system..same effect.

This album would have been Album Of The Year. Include 4-5 songs from the album every night of the ABB tour and the Stones regain their artistic relevancy. The Stones are simultaneously geniuses and morons.

Please, listen to the album in this sequence and tell me if I'm wrong...(and try to be gentle if you can)

Lead off single / Video? Shoulda been Dangerous Beauty.

P.S. Keep Don Was away from these guys...please...some of the early mixes - before he overglossed the music - sound phenomenal! No mas !! No mas from Mr. Was!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-23 22:57 by Turd On The Run.

I have beginning to really come into 'Sweet Neo Con'..Overruled...

2 1 2 0

ROCKMAN

your line-up is perfect.the crap songs are thrown out,it doesn't run too long etc.

there is actually a term for what the stones have-studio diarrhea.its an affliction of the compact disc age,musicians get lazy and dont edit. they have too much time on a cd as opposed to a vinyl record and justify it by saying they're giving their fans more content.

in the end you have a disc that at least 5 of the songs should've been outtakes.good one,i think i'm gonna burn a bigger bang disc with that line-up.

It's easy to disbelief Keith (as many on this board have done) because the easy storytelling style he has comes off as a little too smooth, but considering that was exactly what Mick had done with GODDESS - laid down tracks on ProTools at his houses and then logged studio time with producers and sidemen to add bells and whistles, I tend to think Keith is telling the truth.

rockmans post translated-

"we did the demos at micks house and then he wanted to take it into a real recording studio and finish it.i said f/ck it,that would require more work,time and money and i'm too cheap and lazy for that.so there you have it,the public got the half-baked piece of shit we worked on for 2 weeks" that damn jagger,always making problems,we showed him"

yeah, the sequencing of the songs is the problem with that album. that's the ticket.

5 years down the road and I never listen to ABB....I'll listen to ER or Voodoo Lounge , Talk is Cheap or Wandering Spirit even before ABB.

Quote
Rip This
5 years down the road and I never listen to ABB....I'll listen to ER or Voodoo Lounge , Talk is Cheap or Wandering Spirit even before ABB.

it took me about 3 months to put it permanently in mothballs...one of the good things about getting older is that you can spot a lousy album faster....

agree with turd's lineup
that would have been a good album

i might even seriously consider taking one more song out.. all you need is 40-42 minutes.. just make it have impact...

i think the problem is don was.. the guy doesn't have a clue anymore... he really sucks.. i mean they need someone they trust to tell them how it is but clearly they don't have such a person...don was is not it...he's too much of a fanboy...


they don't need a friend to produce them.. they need a producer.

Good sequencing. Matter of taste, but I'd prefer "She Saw me Coming" over "It Won't Be Long". And I'd leave both Keith cuts off; maybe sub "Look what the Cat" instead at # 10.

NO SHE SAW ME COMING. that song blows.

Quote
StonesTod

Quote
Rip This
5 years down the road and I never listen to ABB....I'll listen to ER or Voodoo Lounge , Talk is Cheap or Wandering Spirit even before ABB.

it took me about 3 months to put it permanently in mothballs...one of the good things about getting older is that you can spot a lousy album faster....

lol...
Yeah, whats the point.
I'll admit to really liking some of ABB, alot of it actually, but Turd makes a great point about rawness and the lack thereof... the rougher mixes, the stuff thats left in the vaults probably has a better feel than what ended up on record. That's been Jagger's problem since She's the Boss, bypassing the more organic for the overproduced. Its like he doesn't trust the Stones anymore. The only song on ABB that comes close to that raw energy is Oh No NOt You Again, a monster of a rocker that reminds of Respectable.

But thats always been their strength. On that I will agree 1000 % with Keith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 00:30 by stupidguy2.

and for me the only song that fits the criterion you cite is she saw me coming, the lone redeemer that made the final album cut (i like the two that made the dvd bonus, too)....

Quote
stoned in washington dc
agree with turd's lineup
that would have been a good album

i might even seriously consider taking one more song out.. all you need is 40-42 minutes.. just make it have impact...

i think the problem is don was.. the guy doesn't have a clue anymore... he really sucks.. i mean they need someone they trust to tell them how it is but clearly they don't have such a person...don was is not it...he's too much of a fanboy...


they don't need a friend to produce them.. they need a producer.

sad but true-as i mentioned above,read rockmans post.the paragraph from life is unbelievably telling.jagger basically wanted to use what they recorded on pro-tools for demo's.

keith says"don was and i looked at each other"

they talk mick out of going into an actual studio and finishing the record.it confirms what i've always thought-this is an unfinished record.i wish i could dig up every post i've ever made saying bang sounds like a collection of outtakes.

what doesnt bode well for the furture is keith putting this in his book as an example of how smart he is....not good.any half way decent producer couldve seen jagger was right and the disc needed more work.

The production gloss is all Jagger. Keith does mixes with Don Was and Jagger does mixes and the final product is more Jagger. Keith will tell you "listen to this mix I got, baby, that's what we should have put out" but whatever detente they worked out in '89 to keep the band together has Mick at the wheel.

do you guys have trouble understanding english? you got the original stuff,there was no "jagger polish in the studio"that was keiths entire point,that they DIDNT GO INTO A PROPER STUDIO.

i'm reading how the "gloss and sheen" is jaggers and there are probably rawer versions.he just told you,they used the stuff recorded on pro-tools at micks house.

do you just read something and no matter what follow the "keith likes the raw stuff and jagger likes the over-produced stuff"line.its like talking to robots.

Lem has a point IMHO.

Keef is a busted flush and Mick is the only hope we have. Thank God Ronnie is back on form or it would have to be all over for the band.

Quote
lem motlow
do you guys have trouble understanding english? you got the original stuff,there was no "jagger polish in the studio"that was keiths entire point,that they DIDNT GO INTO A PROPER STUDIO.

i'm reading how the "gloss and sheen" is jaggers and there are probably rawer versions.he just told you,they used the stuff recorded on pro-tools at micks house.

do you just read something and no matter what follow the "keith likes the raw stuff and jagger likes the over-produced stuff"line.its like talking to robots.

But mick's tendency toward gloss is well-established. He has rarely gone for the organic, since 85 at least. The most raw he's gotten since Undercover was only because of Rick Rubin. Otherwise, Mick would rather tinker to death, with a few exceptions. This isn't Mick vs Keith, its just the way they work, and we've got the last ..what....30 years to make that judgement. COmpare Keith's work with Steve Jordan to Mick's with Was, Stewart, whoever.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 02:50 by stupidguy2.

For me it's the SONGS that are bad, no matter in which order they are, the "rockers" all sound the same and are almost indistinguishable one from another.

Quote
lem motlow
do you guys have trouble understanding english? you got the original stuff,there was no "jagger polish in the studio"that was keiths entire point,that they DIDNT GO INTO A PROPER STUDIO.

i'm reading how the "gloss and sheen" is jaggers and there are probably rawer versions.he just told you,they used the stuff recorded on pro-tools at micks house.

do you just read something and no matter what follow the "keith likes the raw stuff and jagger likes the over-produced stuff"line.its like talking to robots.

Did you read what I posted? It's in the mix.

Exile was done in a house and finished in a studio. Parts of Sticky Fingers were done in a house..etc.

With Pro Tools you could record in a library, a garage, a studio, a bathroom or a kitchen and it will pretty much sound like A Bigger Bang does.

how can mick be accused of "insisting on a 'real' studio" when the basic tracks were recorded on Pro Tools in his house, and he had already produced at least one album this way?

keith is just picking a bone to serve his resentment. It's not like mick was proposing to re-do everything. Surface gloss is just surface gloss, it doesn't change the fact that you have garage-band basic tracks, which mick was fully on-board with.


as for the original post--haven't we done this on a monthly basis since 2005?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 06:08 by cc.

I agree that ABB is too long. Should be sawed down by some songs. It's funny, because I don't have that problem with SW, VL or B2B. ABB is just overdoing it I think. It's still a great album don't get me wrong. I love most of it and I've had it in a pretty steady rotation ever since it came out. I'd probably do the tracklisting a tad different than Turd. Here's my take:

1.- Rough Justice.
2.- Oh No Not You Again.
3.- Dangerous Beauty.
4.- This Place Is Empty.
5.- Laugh I Nearly Died.
6.- Driving Too Fast.
7.- Back Of My Hand.
8.- Streets Of Love. (I know many people think it's bad, but they have no taste in great pop).
9.- Rain Fall Down.
10.- Under The Radar.

First single: Rough Justice/Look What The Cat Dragged In.
Second single: Back Of My Hand/Biggest Mistake.
Third single: It Won't Take Long/Infamy.

JumpingKentFlash

I don't think the case is that of making it in your basement or in a proper studio (they have made masterpieces in the greatest studios on earth and in their basements). The point is what you do there wherever you are; how much you put creative energy into your output. A BIGGER BANG sounds half-finished beacuse the song material was half-created - they didn't have the energy to think and rethink, with trial and error, develop the songs, change arrangemnets, and wait for the right inspiration or take to come. That was the method of their awesome past when they made incredible music. The issue of how "raw" it is, or how "polished" or over-produced it is, is secondary.

To my ears Keith's claim sound more like Lem interprets it. The claim for rawness could be right if there was quality stuff enough. There was not; there was more of a dozen, half-baked, million times recicled ideas they do half-sleep and in two minutes. I don't know what Jagger had in his mind. If the question was that of of rerecording the whole album - all songs - perhaps the songs - or some of them - could have been developed a bit further. But the latter is just a guess.

I admire Turd's brave idea to 'save' the album, and I think his "Frankenstein"-disc is a better, more dynamic collection of songs (Lem's point about diarrhea is spot on related - the whole idea of album as an artistic wholeness is destroyed during the CD era). But frankly, I think finally it is question of marginals here - there is no way to make even a decent album by Stones standards out of it. Expect some lame PR talk, even the band knew there was not much to be excited about. I don't think they fool themselves - they know when they are artistically autopiloting.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 09:44 by Doxa.

Quote
cc
how can mick be accused of "insisting on a 'real' studio" when the basic tracks were recorded on Pro Tools in his house, and he had already produced at least one album this way?

keith is just picking a bone to serve his resentment. It's not like mick was proposing to re-do everything. Surface gloss is just surface gloss, it doesn't change the fact that you have garage-band basic tracks, which mick was fully on-board with.


as for the original post--haven't we done this on a monthly basis since 2005?

I will make a contra claim here. A wish-wish-claim in order to a decent Rolling Stones album to come...

Mick: "Okay pals, now we have made the rough demos, and have somehow captured the songs. Why don't we just go now to some studio - say Pathe Marconi - and ask the whole band there, and you know, start playing the songs together, and see what happens. We used to do quite good records in that method, remember? I could also check some of my melody lines and lyrics during the process. Charlie will also have time to rediscover his swing when he can play with living musicians, not just according to demo tapes. Keith and Ron can also rewarm the idea what you call, what was it... 'ancient art of something'..."



- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 10:09 by Doxa.

Quote
StonesTod
yeah, the sequencing of the songs is the problem with that album. that's the ticket.

...ànd the fact that it's TOO DAMN LONG (not this selection, Turd - excellent work!)...

But i DO like ABB in it's current form. And I do like songs like "Biggest Mistake" (rightful ascendent to "Dead Flowers"...), "Infame", "Sweet neo-Con" and "Streets of love".
It's always been the same: No Stonesalbum without completely different & even conflicting opinions! That's what I'll miss the most about these guys when they're gone.)

["I can hear the Bullfrog calling me..."]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-02-24 18:03 by MississippiBullfrog.

Some very interesting tracklistings there; and like Kent mentioned I too loved the album when it came out and still do. True, overlong with a few turkeys (Neo Con being a prime example), but when it's good it's bloody great - Rain Fall Down, Let Me Down Slow, This Place is Empty....etc

Rough Justice
Let Me Down Slow
Rain Fall Down
This Place Is Empty
Look What the Cat Dragged In
Laugh I Nearly Died
Back Of My Hand
She Saw Me Coming
Driving Too Fast
Oh No Not You Again

B-Sides to singles: Streets Of Love / Biggest Mistake / Dangerous Beauty

That leaves the 3 I don't have on the i-pod: Neo Con, It Won't Take Long & Infamy

Quote
stones78
For me it's the SONGS that are bad, no matter in which order they are, the "rockers" all sound the same and are almost indistinguishable one from another.

bingo. you can blame producers or technology or whatever - it all boils down to subpar material, which no producer or technology is going to enhance.

Where did you get the 'early outtake mixes' ?