OT, but re: "songs"

I've never bought the "they saved the best songs for their solo albums" storyline. As we can hear (and read in Life), keith writes in the studio, at least since the Nellcote days. He wouldn't have any stock of songs to save. You may argue that he came up with better songs during the Talk is Cheap and Main Offender sessions than during the Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge sessions, but that's down to what happened in the studio--whether by dint of atmosphere, the muse, or chemicals.

mick, too, though he may come prepared for a recording session seems to write on an as-needed basis. So he may have used up his ideas for his solo records--or the most fresh and powerful versions of those ideas--but I strongly doubt he put aside songs for the solo records, because he didn't have them ready. Look at She's the Boss, where he revives a Stones outtake. Hardly saving the best.

and for keith's solo work, I don't think that "songs" are the best criteria for appreciating them. It's understandable given the conventions of the Rolling Stones' past successes, but some genres of music really do exist based on groove and riffs rather than polished songs, and this is where the Winos tend toward.

granted, it may be strange or telling that one half of one of rock's greatest songwriting teams ceases to become a recognizable songwriter as such in a different context. But it's also possible that keith's priorities had shifted either by the 80s or when loosed from the Stones format.

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cc
OT, but re: "songs"

I've never bought the "they saved the best songs for their solo albums" storyline. As we can hear (and read in Life), keith writes in the studio, at least since the Nellcote days. He wouldn't have any stock of songs to save. You may argue that he came up with better songs during the Talk is Cheap and Main Offender sessions than during the Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge sessions, but that's down to what happened in the studio--whether by dint of atmosphere, the muse, or chemicals.

mick, too, though he may come prepared for a recording session seems to write on an as-needed basis. So he may have used up his ideas for his solo records--or the most fresh and powerful versions of those ideas--but I strongly doubt he put aside songs for the solo records, because he didn't have them ready. Look at She's the Boss, where he revives a Stones outtake. Hardly saving the best.

and for keith's solo work, I don't think that "songs" are the best criteria for appreciating them. It's understandable given the conventions of the Rolling Stones' past successes, but some genres of music really do exist based on groove and riffs rather than polished songs, and this is where the Winos tend toward.

granted, it may be strange or telling that one half of one of rock's greatest songwriting teams ceases to become a recognizable songwriter as such in a different context. But it's also possible that keith's priorities had shifted either by the 80s or when loosed from the Stones format.

Very true, which is why I don't particularly care for the Winos. Keith's riffing skills were best put to use when pared with a great song - and that usually (though not always) required a contribution from Jagger. Without that you just get the riff or the groove which is ok, but far less interesting to me than a great song.

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71Tele


Very true, which is why I don't particularly care for the Winos. Keith's riffing skills were best put to use when pared with a great song - and that usually (though not always) required a contribution from Jagger. Without that you just get the riff or the groove which is ok, but far less interesting to me than a great song.

Yes, that's been my argument for years....
You brought up his vocal version of Soul Survivor, that's it in a nutshell.

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stupidguy2

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71Tele


Very true, which is why I don't particularly care for the Winos. Keith's riffing skills were best put to use when pared with a great song - and that usually (though not always) required a contribution from Jagger. Without that you just get the riff or the groove which is ok, but far less interesting to me than a great song.

Yes, that's been my argument for years....
You brought up his vocal version of Soul Survivor, that's it in a nutshell.

When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele


Very true, which is why I don't particularly care for the Winos. Keith's riffing skills were best put to use when pared with a great song - and that usually (though not always) required a contribution from Jagger. Without that you just get the riff or the groove which is ok, but far less interesting to me than a great song.

Yes, that's been my argument for years....
You brought up his vocal version of Soul Survivor, that's it in a nutshell.

When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

that little disappointment pales in comparison to many others on this ill-fated project....

Wandering Spirit has some great songs.I also liked Primitive Cool alot while many hated it.

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cc
OT, but re: "songs"

and for keith's solo work, I don't think that "songs" are the best criteria for appreciating them. It's understandable given the conventions of the Rolling Stones' past successes, but some genres of music really do exist based on groove and riffs rather than polished songs, and this is where the Winos tend toward.

granted, it may be strange or telling that one half of one of rock's greatest songwriting teams ceases to become a recognizable songwriter as such in a different context. But it's also possible that keith's priorities had shifted either by the 80s or when loosed from the Stones format.

True, to some extent. However, some of the songs are very well crafted. Like Make No Mistake, You Don't Move Me and Hate It When You Leave. Those tracks are imo some of the best tracks he's ever written. But lots of his solo songs depend on the groove only, that's true.

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stupidguy2

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NedKelly
The contradiction is not that the album is bad or not, but the fact that a lot of people on this board hazzles Jagger for his contributions on several albums, like "a shitty song - typical Jagger pop stuff", og "this just a Jagger outtake" and so on.... And Keith gets all the credit if there's a good song somewhere. But when finally Keith's in charge, it gets the worst reviews ever. I find that a bit strange. To me, it's always best to have the two of them involved, but there are still lots of great songs where one of them are clearly in charge.
If DW is the worst album they've ever made, I don't know. I surely play it a lot more than Satanic, which I don't think I ever have played from the first to the last song.

Got a point. Dirty Work is awash in mediocre, repetitive riffs, cheesy lyrics and Mick's input was marginal. I'll also say that while I liked Talk is Cheap, Wandering Spirit, to this day, is the best Stones album since TYou. As Tele said, great guitar sounds are not songs. Talk is Cheap and Main Offender are nice because they sounded like the Stones, it was familiar. Also, Steve Jordan was a very prominant collaborator on these albums, so it wasn't all Keith. I'll be the first to slag Mick's 80s output, but fair is fair....Keith wasn't exactly charting new territory on his solo albums.

I completely agree. I'd also add that Keith hasn't charted new territory since 1974. He's very much an 'if it ain't broke ...' musician.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-05 11:44 by Nikolai.

Make No Mistake (1988) and 999 (1992) wasn't new territory for Keith? Show me the jazzy ballad masterpiece and the grungy (and I mean grungy) riffs he did before.

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71Tele
When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

So you're saying you don't appreciate hearing a Stones work in progress then?

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DandelionPowderman

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cc
OT, but re: "songs"

and for keith's solo work, I don't think that "songs" are the best criteria for appreciating them. It's understandable given the conventions of the Rolling Stones' past successes, but some genres of music really do exist based on groove and riffs rather than polished songs, and this is where the Winos tend toward.

granted, it may be strange or telling that one half of one of rock's greatest songwriting teams ceases to become a recognizable songwriter as such in a different context. But it's also possible that keith's priorities had shifted either by the 80s or when loosed from the Stones format.

True, to some extent. However, some of the songs are very well crafted. Like Make No Mistake, You Don't Move Me and Hate It When You Leave. Those tracks are imo some of the best tracks he's ever written. But lots of his solo songs depend on the groove only, that's true.

yes, those are well crafted--actually, I'm not sure I would say that about any of them but "Make No Mistake"... "YDMM" does have an arrangement with respect to dynamics, but "HIWYL" is a slick chord progression without much of a song arrangement (which doesn't bother me)--but anyway my point was that they were (most likely, according to keith) written in the studio--as the album was being recorded, not at some other time when the decision could have been made to "save" the song for the Stones. So in these cases keith shows that he can craft a song in the studio. My post was not a criticism of keith's solo albums but of the "in that period they saved their best songs for their solo albums" cliche.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-05 19:06 by cc.

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bluesinc.
dirty work has a few quite good songs, it also holds some of their worst

That's it.

"No Anchovies, Please"

goo album

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71Tele

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stupidguy2

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71Tele


Very true, which is why I don't particularly care for the Winos. Keith's riffing skills were best put to use when pared with a great song - and that usually (though not always) required a contribution from Jagger. Without that you just get the riff or the groove which is ok, but far less interesting to me than a great song.

Yes, that's been my argument for years....
You brought up his vocal version of Soul Survivor, that's it in a nutshell.

When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

i always assumed that when Keith is writing a song (music & lyrics) that he intends for
Mick to sing on the final recording.....that the lyrics are a "rough draft"...and then Mick
adds his input & finishes the lyrics. In essence...it's sort of a "demo"...and then Mick picks up the
ball and runs with it (re: finished lyrics for tunes that MJ sings). So..I wasn't surprised or "disappointed".


IORR............but I like it!

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skipstone

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71Tele
When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

So you're saying you don't appreciate hearing a Stones work in progress then?

Not at all, I do. But I would have rather heard a version with Keith singing "real" lytrics. It would be more than the curiosity we ended up with.

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71Tele

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skipstone

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71Tele
When I first heard that the new Exile was going to contain a version of Soul Survivor sung by Keith, I was thrilled. Very disappointed that it had fill-in lyrics instead of the finished ones.

So you're saying you don't appreciate hearing a Stones work in progress then?

Not at all, I do. But I would have rather heard a version with Keith singing "real" lytrics. It would be more than the curiosity we ended up with.

I had exactly the same reaction. I'd rather hear Keith doing the finished song. Rolling Stone proclaiming it as the best of the outtakes smacks of music snobbery.

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mickscarey
goo album

Is this a positive review with a typo, or a bad review with a twist?

A Goo album .........



ROCKMAN

I recently played Dirty Work for the first time in years, and for some reason I thought I had been trasported to a cheap Las Vegas hotel catching the afternoon entertainment while everyone killed time waiting for Wayne Newton to go on at the nice hotel down the strip. I do not plan to throw the album away as I can still make use of it to scoop up dog droppings from my front yard.

agree with Cafaro, DW is a great record! So angry, I told the guys to use it in the gym, it's great to workout to. Only BTZ is a s*** tune, the rest are great.

You're a rag trade girl, You're the queen of porn, You're the easiest lay on the white house lawn!!

the lyrics to "Hold Back" i thought were quite brilliant. "and george grasped the nettle, it is do or dare, across the banks of the deleware". good stuff. love the rhythm guitars.

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MadMax
So angry, I told the guys to use it in the gym, it's great to workout to.

And if problem, ask Olga to help...

- Doxa

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Midnight Toker
the lyrics to "Hold Back" i thought were quite brilliant. "and george grasped the nettle, it is do or dare, across the banks of the deleware". good stuff.

that's one of those lines that he must not have sung more than the one time it went to tape, or he would have revised it. Maybe his brother wrote it? I believe mick consults Chris for the history textbook allusions.