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But weren't the Beatles already aware of Cliff and the Shadows? That instrumental they recorded in Germany in June 1961, months before they met Epstein, Cry For A Shadow, was a tribute to the musical style of that very group.
video: [www.youtube.com]
And occasionally, toilet seats as well. It was obvious that Epstein got them in the habit of bowing, but my point was the Beatles already had an awareness of Cliff and the Shadows, at least musically. They must not have seen them live or on the telly up to that point.
It was George Martin who didn't like Pete Best's drumming. After suggesting they do something about the drummer, the boys did what they had to do.
Well Lennon said a lot of stuff in frustration, but by all accounts none of the other three were that into Pete Best and he was not near as good of a drummer as Ringo. Ringo jelled with the other three, had the same taste, and most importantly like socializing with them. Often Best would go off on his own and do his own thing and the other three just didn't feel connected to him. The big reason they had him in the group is because his mother had a place for them to practice and he had his own kit.
Yeah Martin didn't like Best, but by all accounts neither did the other three really like him much. So they got Ringo and Martin was still suspicious and it was standard practice at EMI to use studio drummers, and Martin had not really heard Ringo and was unsure of him, so wanted the studio drummer to drum on Love Me Do. But Martin quickly changed his opinion and has said on many occasion that of the four, Ringo had the least amount of errors in the studio and was rock solid with his timing.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 23:30 by whitem8.
Although it is true that Pete Best didn't fit in musically or personally, the other Beatles still felt a certain amount of loyalty toward him. To complicate matters, their trusted roadie, friend and confidant Neil Aspinall had just recently fathered a child with Pete Best's mother. But here is an account of the exact circumstances leading to Pete Best's departure, from Howard Sounes' bio on Macca, Fab, p. 62:
"...A more immediate concern was that Martin didn't like the Beatles' drummer. He found Pete Best personally less engaging than the others, 'almost sullen', and didn't think he kept time well. The producer asked John and Paul if they would consider replacing him. 'We said, "No, we can't!" Paul recalls. 'It was one of those terrible things you go through as kids. Can we betray him? No. But our career was on the line.'"
From p. 64: "The decision having been made to fire Pete Best, the unpleasant job of telling him fell to Brian Epstein, who called Pete into his office at NEMS. 'They don't think you're a good enough drummer,' he told the boy, 'and George Martin doesn't think you're a good enough drummer.' Pete had no idea. As he tried to defend himself, the telephone rang. It was Paul calling Brian to check that he had plunged in the knife. There was no point talking further. A comment Paul had made in recent days made sense to Pete now. In the wake of the EMI deal, the drummer had been talking about buying a car. Paul cautioned him to save his money."
Nevertheless they all knew they lacked that final piece to put them over the top, and that piece was named Ringo. Seems like a pretty good decision in retrospect, doesn't it?
The Shads never had a hit with Telstar, that was The Tornados in 1962 produced by Joe Meek.
The video of The Shadows comes from a 1980's kids TV programme.
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
__________________________
Direct me to one Stones' song where Bill Wyman really knocks the ball out of the park. I will give it a listen.
[www.stonesarchive.com]
You can download the Hampton show for the cost of a beer. Focus on Bill's playing (not difficult). Old Bill "knocks the ball out of the park" in all the 24 songs of the set.
C
Listen closely to Bill giving rock'n'rollers a lesson in how to make a song swing on When The Whip Comes Down
Wyman's bass never really dominated in any of the Stones songs, probably because Mick and Keith didn't want him to. He does lay down a nice bass pattern on Under My Thumb . not that it is difficult, but it is a nice addition and one of the few times I even notice him that much.
It sure was Green Lady! Too bad there is not more footage of the 1963, 1964, even 1962 Rolling Stones, when Brian was in his prime and could highlight the skills he had (of course with all the other Stones) that really helped the initial launch of the legacy of the Rolling Stones.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 17:35
Someone is asking what are the Stones' worst songs. Here is one of their better live efforts. Don't know the venue though.
P.S. here is a better audio version of it. Yep it is the TAMI show in Santa Monica, CA.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 17:52 by mitchflorida1.
P.S. here is a better audio version of it. Yep it is the TAMI show in Santa Monica, CA.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 17:52 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Edith Grove
()
Date: June 24, 2012 17:46
Looks like the TAMI set.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 17:58
I was watching a documentary about the Beatles yesterday. Brian Epstein took the Beatles to watch a local group called Cliff Richard and the Shadows, who had come up with the practice of bowing after every song they played. The Beatles especially John Lennon thought it was corny, but Epstein insisted and it became part of their good guy image.
If you watch this video in 1964, the Stones are also bowing after playing. No big deal but at least it shows they had some good manners then . . LOL.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 19:00 by mitchflorida1.
If you watch this video in 1964, the Stones are also bowing after playing. No big deal but at least it shows they had some good manners then . . LOL.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 19:00 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Edith Grove
()
Date: June 24, 2012 18:57
They're still doing it, they just can't bend over as far.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 18:59
I meant after EVERY song.
Who are those old guys anyway?
Who are those old guys anyway?
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: June 24, 2012 19:24
Quote
mitchflorida1
I was watching a documentary about the Beatles yesterday. Brian Epstein took the Beatles to watch a local group called Cliff Richard and the Shadows, who had come up with the practice of bowing after every song they played. The Beatles especially John Lennon thought it was corny, but Epstein insisted and it became part of their good guy image.
If you watch this video in 1964, the Stones are also bowing after playing. No big deal but at least it shows they had some good manners then . . LOL.
But weren't the Beatles already aware of Cliff and the Shadows? That instrumental they recorded in Germany in June 1961, months before they met Epstein, Cry For A Shadow, was a tribute to the musical style of that very group.
video: [www.youtube.com]
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 19:44
I doubt if the Beatles were bowing after every song in Hamburg. They were all wearing leather motorcycle jackets and sporting Elvis haircuts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 19:45 by mitchflorida1.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 19:45 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: June 24, 2012 19:48
Quote
mitchflorida1
I doubt if the Beatles were bowing after every song in Hamburg. They were all wearing leather motorcycle jackets and sporting Elvis haircuts.
And occasionally, toilet seats as well. It was obvious that Epstein got them in the habit of bowing, but my point was the Beatles already had an awareness of Cliff and the Shadows, at least musically. They must not have seen them live or on the telly up to that point.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 20:01
I am sure they had heard of Cliff Richards and the Shadows, but the biggest influence on the Beatles was Elvis Presley. Cliff Richards was sort of a Pat Boone sort of singer, no one in America has ever heard of him.
One big hit that the Shadows had was the instrumental Telstar. Here is a fun video of them playing it live. They seem to have taken happy pills before the show.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 20:22 by mitchflorida1.
One big hit that the Shadows had was the instrumental Telstar. Here is a fun video of them playing it live. They seem to have taken happy pills before the show.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 20:22 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 24, 2012 20:32
Does anyone know why Pete Best was kicked out of the Beatles? The doc said that "Pete Best was a good drummer, but Ringo Starr was a good Beatle". What does that mean?
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: June 24, 2012 21:10
Quote
mitchflorida1
Does anyone know why Pete Best was kicked out of the Beatles? The doc said that "Pete Best was a good drummer, but Ringo Starr was a good Beatle". What does that mean?
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
It was George Martin who didn't like Pete Best's drumming. After suggesting they do something about the drummer, the boys did what they had to do.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: June 24, 2012 23:08
Quote
mitchflorida1
Does anyone know why Pete Best was kicked out of the Beatles? The doc said that "Pete Best was a good drummer, but Ringo Starr was a good Beatle". What does that mean?
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
Well Lennon said a lot of stuff in frustration, but by all accounts none of the other three were that into Pete Best and he was not near as good of a drummer as Ringo. Ringo jelled with the other three, had the same taste, and most importantly like socializing with them. Often Best would go off on his own and do his own thing and the other three just didn't feel connected to him. The big reason they had him in the group is because his mother had a place for them to practice and he had his own kit.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: June 24, 2012 23:10
Quote
stonesnowQuote
mitchflorida1
Does anyone know why Pete Best was kicked out of the Beatles? The doc said that "Pete Best was a good drummer, but Ringo Starr was a good Beatle". What does that mean?
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
It was George Martin who didn't like Pete Best's drumming. After suggesting they do something about the drummer, the boys did what they had to do.
Yeah Martin didn't like Best, but by all accounts neither did the other three really like him much. So they got Ringo and Martin was still suspicious and it was standard practice at EMI to use studio drummers, and Martin had not really heard Ringo and was unsure of him, so wanted the studio drummer to drum on Love Me Do. But Martin quickly changed his opinion and has said on many occasion that of the four, Ringo had the least amount of errors in the studio and was rock solid with his timing.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-24 23:30 by whitem8.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: June 25, 2012 00:19
Quote
mitchflorida1
Does anyone know why Pete Best was kicked out of the Beatles? The doc said that "Pete Best was a good drummer, but Ringo Starr was a good Beatle". What does that mean?
John Lennon said it was the most shameful thing he ever did with the Beatles, kicking Pete Best out.
Although it is true that Pete Best didn't fit in musically or personally, the other Beatles still felt a certain amount of loyalty toward him. To complicate matters, their trusted roadie, friend and confidant Neil Aspinall had just recently fathered a child with Pete Best's mother. But here is an account of the exact circumstances leading to Pete Best's departure, from Howard Sounes' bio on Macca, Fab, p. 62:
"...A more immediate concern was that Martin didn't like the Beatles' drummer. He found Pete Best personally less engaging than the others, 'almost sullen', and didn't think he kept time well. The producer asked John and Paul if they would consider replacing him. 'We said, "No, we can't!" Paul recalls. 'It was one of those terrible things you go through as kids. Can we betray him? No. But our career was on the line.'"
From p. 64: "The decision having been made to fire Pete Best, the unpleasant job of telling him fell to Brian Epstein, who called Pete into his office at NEMS. 'They don't think you're a good enough drummer,' he told the boy, 'and George Martin doesn't think you're a good enough drummer.' Pete had no idea. As he tried to defend himself, the telephone rang. It was Paul calling Brian to check that he had plunged in the knife. There was no point talking further. A comment Paul had made in recent days made sense to Pete now. In the wake of the EMI deal, the drummer had been talking about buying a car. Paul cautioned him to save his money."
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 25, 2012 00:29
George Martin says he never told the Beatles to fire Pete Best. But he did tell them that he wouldn't let Best play in the recording studio, he would use a session drummer instead. I don't think it was the Beatles' original idea to get rid of him, but they didn't want to stay with someone who wasn't good enough for professional recording.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-25 00:34 by mitchflorida1.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-25 00:34 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: June 25, 2012 15:10
Pete Best was fired because he was goodlooking, he wasnt English (at least on the mothers side), he had a different hair styl, his mum owned the club and Paul hated him and John followed leaders. If someone like Martin told them Pete wasn good enough that would be enough for John.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: June 25, 2012 18:27
Quote
Redhotcarpet
Pete Best was fired because he was goodlooking, he wasnt English (at least on the mothers side), he had a different hair styl, his mum owned the club and Paul hated him and John followed leaders. If someone like Martin told them Pete wasn good enough that would be enough for John.
Nevertheless they all knew they lacked that final piece to put them over the top, and that piece was named Ringo. Seems like a pretty good decision in retrospect, doesn't it?
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: June 25, 2012 19:58
Yup tele71. They needed Ringo to fully gel. Again, Martin said he didn't like Best, and the boys readily agreed to sack him. That is because they were tired of him, he didn't fit, didn't get along with them, see their humor, and just wasn't that great of a drummer. Ringo was needed, and was the perfect fit. Best did however, finally get some financial rewards when Anthology 1 came out with four songs he played on. He reportedly got about 4 million dollars from the royalties. Not bad for four songs!
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 25, 2012 22:18
There have been a couple of threads on IORR saying that Ringo was "lucky" to get the Beatles gig. Luck had nothing to do with it, as Ringo was recruited by the other Beatles wanting to do a studio recording.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-25 22:34 by mitchflorida1.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-06-25 22:34 by mitchflorida1.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Deltics
()
Date: June 25, 2012 23:47
Quote
mitchflorida1
I am sure they had heard of Cliff Richards and the Shadows, but the biggest influence on the Beatles was Elvis Presley. Cliff Richards was sort of a Pat Boone sort of singer, no one in America has ever heard of him.
One big hit that the Shadows had was the instrumental Telstar. Here is a fun video of them playing it live. They seem to have taken happy pills before the show.
The Shads never had a hit with Telstar, that was The Tornados in 1962 produced by Joe Meek.
The video of The Shadows comes from a 1980's kids TV programme.
"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 26, 2012 00:44
It may have been a kid's program but the bass player on that song is a lot better than I have ever heard Bill wyman play.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
NICOS
()
Date: June 26, 2012 01:45
Quote
mitchflorida1
It may have been a kid's program but the bass player on that song is a lot better than I have ever heard Bill wyman play.
__________________________
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 26, 2012 02:33
Quote
NICOSQuote
mitchflorida1
It may have been a kid's program but the bass player on that song is a lot better than I have ever heard Bill wyman play.
Direct me to one Stones' song where Bill Wyman really knocks the ball out of the park. I will give it a listen.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: June 26, 2012 12:03
Quote
mitchflorida1Quote
NICOSQuote
mitchflorida1
It may have been a kid's program but the bass player on that song is a lot better than I have ever heard Bill wyman play.
Direct me to one Stones' song where Bill Wyman really knocks the ball out of the park. I will give it a listen.
[www.stonesarchive.com]
You can download the Hampton show for the cost of a beer. Focus on Bill's playing (not difficult). Old Bill "knocks the ball out of the park" in all the 24 songs of the set.
C
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 26, 2012 12:54
Quote
liddasQuote
mitchflorida1Quote
NICOSQuote
mitchflorida1
It may have been a kid's program but the bass player on that song is a lot better than I have ever heard Bill wyman play.
Direct me to one Stones' song where Bill Wyman really knocks the ball out of the park. I will give it a listen.
[www.stonesarchive.com]
You can download the Hampton show for the cost of a beer. Focus on Bill's playing (not difficult). Old Bill "knocks the ball out of the park" in all the 24 songs of the set.
C
Listen closely to Bill giving rock'n'rollers a lesson in how to make a song swing on When The Whip Comes Down
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: June 26, 2012 15:08
That is one nice performance by Brian: Listening to that TAMI show footage in good sound, I'm suddenly struck by how much Off The Hook owes to the "buzz" on King Bee:
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
mitchflorida1
()
Date: June 26, 2012 15:44
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Listen closely to Bill giving rock'n'rollers a lesson in how to make a song swing on When The Whip Comes Down
Wyman's bass never really dominated in any of the Stones songs, probably because Mick and Keith didn't want him to. He does lay down a nice bass pattern on Under My Thumb . not that it is difficult, but it is a nice addition and one of the few times I even notice him that much.
Re: Off the Hook - Live - 1964
Posted by:
Blue
()
Date: June 26, 2012 16:50
Quote
Green Lady
That is one nice performance by Brian: Listening to that TAMI show footage in good sound, I'm suddenly struck by how much Off The Hook owes to the "buzz" on King Bee:
It sure was Green Lady! Too bad there is not more footage of the 1963, 1964, even 1962 Rolling Stones, when Brian was in his prime and could highlight the skills he had (of course with all the other Stones) that really helped the initial launch of the legacy of the Rolling Stones.
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