Anybody in a band and tried to coach a drummer on the "Charlie sound?" How can it be done? Or are there any drummers here that have learned from Charlie? What's the secret?

Charlie's most prevalent stereotype is that he's as consistent as a metronome...I hear it all the time and I completely hate that comparison but....is that the only image we can use as a guide? I play guitar and I've tried and tried and consistently failed to get drummers to "get" Charlie.

Any input would be helpful.

It's simple - don't play the hi-hat all the way through, do either a four beat or a double beat before each snare note, keep the fills low and be consistent.

The metronomome thing doesn't sound right to me, rather than hammering down a strict tempo he goes with the flow of the music.

The thing of him kinda following Keith is part of what made the stones special so I'd say that needs mentioning.

Jim Gordon taught Charlie the move in which on the three when he hits the snare drum he leaves off the hihat hit....Jim Kelter uses this as well...also Charlie cannot play a roll so one gets all those weird fills that are all over Sone Girls and emotional rescue.....Charlie's pocket from following Keith with Bill weaving in there gives the Stones that special touch..that is in part why since they switched to playing to the lighting cue they do not roll like they used to...

Which era as well, his drumming in 1968 - 1970 is far more loose than say 80's onwards.

That thing of skipping the hi-hat on 3 etc evolved in to something too obvious and rigid for my liking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-09 21:09 by His Majesty.

Get the part from Keith's autobiography where he discusses Charlie's technique, and how you can develop heart arrhythmia from watching Charlie play.

Skipping the hi-hat on 3 won't make you sound like Charlie. Just like putting five strings on your telecaster in open G won't make you sound like Keith.

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Koen
Skipping the hi-hat on 3 won't make you sound like Charlie. Just like putting five strings on your telecaster in open G won't make you sound like Keith.

That's a good point. The effect is minimal because it's still about the relatinship between the snare and the bass drum. To me, Charlie has always drummed a dance beat in some variation. He always said that rock and roll is music you can dance to---and I think that's part of the secret ingredient. He keeps the beat almost like a dance track...steady and consistent. With the snare coming almost right on top of the beat..almost slightly a hair in front of it.

But on a technical level, I have no idea how to convey that to a drummer...

tell your drummer to study Papa Jo Jones

I am a drummer and think about this a lot. I am actually working on a piece on my blog about this very topic - will let you know. The gist of it, though, is that he is what drummers call "in the pocket." Not sure how to define it precisely, but the implication is that unlike a Carl Palmer, Charlie's drumming isn't about technique, it's about being in tune with the groove of a song and sustaining - and pushing forward - the groove. That's why his fills are so nominal - they could distract from the groove of the music.

I've heard the "metronome" thing but frankly, I don't think that's precise. He's NOT like a metronome - he's locked into Keith though, and sways and pulls and pushes along with his rhythm guitarist.

Another thing he does is stay slightly ahead of the beat on the snare hits (2 and 4 in standard 4/4 time). This gives the Stones that "get up and go" edge that helps to differentiate their sound as Keith often plays off it - it's like giving him a lift. A great example of this to listen to is the studio version of Respectable. Listen closely and you'll hear it right away.

The dropping of the high hat when he hits the snare I agree can be overdone, but it really speaks to what gives the Stones their sound since the 70s. If you listen, they are as much a swing band as a rock and roll band. This contributes to that sound because of the way Keith and Daryll "fill in" the overall sound. If you hit on all traditional eight notes, as the vast majority of drummers do, it's more of a straight ahead rock sound. If you don't, it "opens up" the space and allows for the more swingy sound.

If I were advising a young drummer, it would be: feel the music, don't try to overwhelm it, but be a part of it. Drop back a bit - adding gaps, avoiding too many fills, all that gives a spacier sound and let's a groove develop.

A fascinating topic ot me and I'm glad to see it discussed.

Charlies' drumming on Get off my Cloud really epitomizes his greatness!!!

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MrMonte
I am a drummer and think about this a lot. I am actually working on a piece on my blog about this very topic - will let you know. The gist of it, though, is that he is what drummers call "in the pocket." Not sure how to define it precisely, but the implication is that unlike a Carl Palmer, Charlie's drumming isn't about technique, it's about being in tune with the groove of a song and sustaining - and pushing forward - the groove. That's why his fills are so nominal - they could distract from the groove of the music.

I've heard the "metronome" thing but frankly, I don't think that's precise. He's NOT like a metronome - he's locked into Keith though, and sways and pulls and pushes along with his rhythm guitarist.

Another thing he does is stay slightly ahead of the beat on the snare hits (2 and 4 in standard 4/4 time). This gives the Stones that "get up and go" edge that helps to differentiate their sound as Keith often plays off it - it's like giving him a lift. A great example of this to listen to is the studio version of Respectable. Listen closely and you'll hear it right away.

The dropping of the high hat when he hits the snare I agree can be overdone, but it really speaks to what gives the Stones their sound since the 70s. If you listen, they are as much a swing band as a rock and roll band. This contributes to that sound because of the way Keith and Daryll "fill in" the overall sound. If you hit on all traditional eight notes, as the vast majority of drummers do, it's more of a straight ahead rock sound. If you don't, it "opens up" the space and allows for the more swingy sound.

If I were advising a young drummer, it would be: feel the music, don't try to overwhelm it, but be a part of it. Drop back a bit - adding gaps, avoiding too many fills, all that gives a spacier sound and let's a groove develop.

A fascinating topic ot me and I'm glad to see it discussed.

Be sure to post a link to your blog once your piece is done.

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MrMonte
I am a drummer and think about this a lot. I am actually working on a piece on my blog about this very topic - will let you know. The gist of it, though, is that he is what drummers call "in the pocket." Not sure how to define it precisely, but the implication is that unlike a Carl Palmer, Charlie's drumming isn't about technique, it's about being in tune with the groove of a song and sustaining - and pushing forward - the groove. That's why his fills are so nominal - they could distract from the groove of the music.

I've heard the "metronome" thing but frankly, I don't think that's precise. He's NOT like a metronome - he's locked into Keith though, and sways and pulls and pushes along with his rhythm guitarist.

Another thing he does is stay slightly ahead of the beat on the snare hits (2 and 4 in standard 4/4 time). This gives the Stones that "get up and go" edge that helps to differentiate their sound as Keith often plays off it - it's like giving him a lift. A great example of this to listen to is the studio version of Respectable. Listen closely and you'll hear it right away.

The dropping of the high hat when he hits the snare I agree can be overdone, but it really speaks to what gives the Stones their sound since the 70s. If you listen, they are as much a swing band as a rock and roll band. This contributes to that sound because of the way Keith and Daryll "fill in" the overall sound. If you hit on all traditional eight notes, as the vast majority of drummers do, it's more of a straight ahead rock sound. If you don't, it "opens up" the space and allows for the more swingy sound.

If I were advising a young drummer, it would be: feel the music, don't try to overwhelm it, but be a part of it. Drop back a bit - adding gaps, avoiding too many fills, all that gives a spacier sound and let's a groove develop.

A fascinating topic ot me and I'm glad to see it discussed.

Great post Mr Monte...really looking forward to your blog post. It should really be enlightening.

I think we're getting somewhere here. So I wasn't going crazy when I noticed that Charlie was slightly ahead of the beat. I always sensed that. The way I play and write music---which was dervied strictly from the Stones--I notice that I play the guitar directly to the drums...almost putting the 2 and 4 beats squarely right on the snare. But I bring it to a drummer, and they're just attacking it so blase. I always saw Charlie keeping it ridiculously tight...almost no room to "relax" in a way. By staying slightly ahead of the beat--you almost have to stay alert and on top of things. Charlie pulls it off so effortlessly yet it takes a lot of focus to hone in on that beat he's doing.

I always thought the secret was just a slight delay before the beat, and sometimes leaving out a beat. You expect it there and when it's not there's a split second in the brain like a tease. You can see him holding off on the obvious beat. It's very idiosyncratic but makes almost any Stones song automatically reconizable.

The last time I remember this phenomena was the first time I heard Mixed Emotions. It was on the radio and I suspected it was a Stones song but once I heard the slight stutter on the beat, followed by Bill's elastic bass, I knew it was a Stones song before Mick began singing.

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24FPS
I always thought the secret was just a slight delay before the beat, and sometimes leaving out a beat.

See this is where things get tricky for me. I'm not a drummer so I can't say for sure what exactly he's doing but from a guitar player's standpoint it always felt like he was right at the cusp of the front (ahead) of the beat to me.

This whole ahead/behind the beat is a weird phoenomenon...could someone (Mr Monte) perhaps provide examples demonstrating both techniques? That could be the best way to understand this....

What singles him out from other drummers is simplicity. He doesn't overdo it and uses half the amount of drums compared to others. Also he has a very hard and distinct hit on the snare drum. And he, together with Bill, has been the most solid musician in the band. In fact I think his sound is more distinct from the 80s and onwards.

His playing is very simple, but it has something unique which is hard to define. The groove is one, if not the most important aspect of the Stones' music.

1. Simple Trap set
2. Easy Snare on the 2 and 4 (who cares if it's all alone)
3. Rather "loosly" tuned drum heads - decades old
4. Complete ambivolence to the music as an art form.
5. Fills done AFTER the change not as lead-in's (Chris Kimsey discusses this and says it's because he doesn't care memorize the arrangements but listens very very well as the song progresses and therefore comes in late with the fills as a rule)
6. Amphetamines when the rest of the band is on smack.
7. Smack when the rest of the band is on amphetamines.
8 Always do what the guitar player and singer want you to do.

(just joking on #6 and #7, whew!)

peace

I'm a guitar guy, but I *worship* drummers. I think, as a general rule, most bands fundamentally sound the way they do because of their drummer. This is especially true of Charlie and the Stones. Charlie is the reason why Stones tribute bands never actually sound like the Stones--because no drummer, however talented, can sound quite like Charlie.

Charlie's drumming is anything but simple; it's deceptively hard. Just try it! He does beautiful things with his left foot. I've heard him say he tries to lend danceability to every song, even ballads. You can hear this on "Almost Hear You Sigh," for example.

I wouldn't say Charlie plays ahead of the beat; in fact, I'd say the opposite. He plays slightly behind the beat, to terrific effect. But Darryl Jones makes the interesting point that his *fills* start early, which I agree with. Playing behind the beat and sometimes ahead of it--that's how Charlie achieves his "push and pull" effect.

There's also something about his tone; you can tell it's Charlie with one hit of the snare. That's an incredibly rare quality for a drummer. Steve Jordan is the same way. It's wonder they're Keith's main guys!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 00:09 by Mel Belli.

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Mel Belli
I wouldn't say Charlie plays ahead of the beat; in fact, I'd say the opposite.

There it is again...conflicting arguemnts about ahead/behind the beat. Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. Can we try to figure this out once and for all?...is Charlie in front or behind the beat?

Darryl once stated that it is Charlies snare hits that makes him special. Slightly behind the beat. On that he is consistant as far as I can tell. His Hi-Hat and bassdrum can actually be slightly in front of the beat, depending on the tune. His also a bit uptempo in his fills.
I find Charlie a world class drummer when he "locks in", but he can also be a disaster/trainwreck. Much the same with the entire band actually. That'a what makes the Stones so fascinating, amongst other things, of course.

Have your drummer study this:





[www.reverbnation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 01:32 by audun-eg.

Here's one Pro's insite :

Here's a really cool interview w/ Charlie explaining his drum set :

If I had to put it in a word I would call it "jazz". Plain and simple. Even Charlie calls his playing style "jazz" not "rock". In this video of a Pro playing the drum part of "you Can't Always Get What You Want" you can distinctly hear the jazziness of it. It's not even close to being "rock" drumming :

Those demos explain what I was trying to say better than I ever could. Which is to say, they don't sound at all like Charlie! It's a strange thing. A decent guitarist with a Tele and a Deluxe Reverb or Twin could give you a nice approximation of Keith. But nobody can do Charlie. Very good textbook drummers, especially, cannot do Charlie.

Listen to this snare and how he answers with the hi-hat. It's heaven:





Okay, this is an even more useful exercise. Here's a backline tech actually playing Charlie's kit -- and sounding nothing at all like Charlie!







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 02:19 by Mel Belli.

First, your drummer has to stop listening to rock music. Period. Usually rock drummers just can't get Charlie. They want to put the downbeat in the wrong place and they don't syncopate on the hi-hat, for starters. But it's all bout feel, not technique, and Charlie has just never given a crap about "rock". God bless him for it, or the Stones would be just another rock band.

I think Charlie's rolls are often heavy on the right hand. I notice this especially on Tattoo You. It's a lazy style of playing, really, but it has its charm. I love Charlie, always have, but I honestly think a bit of his "style" that makes him who he is as a drummer is his laziness (which is also why he does the hi-hat bit). I find myself sounding a bit like him when I haven't practiced (which is most often these days). His grip is the traditional jazz grip, too, which I think tends to contribute to his uneven fills. Has anyone noticed this? I always used to sort of make fun of Charlie by hitting really hard with my right hand during a roll on the snare, making a "BATT-a-BATT-a-BATT-a.." type sound.

The skipped hi hat beat is IMO way overrated in trying to explain CW's drumming. Yes, if he is only trying to keep a beat going; maybe he can't hear well in a situation; or they are trying to get it back into a groove.
But Charlie is very much the Stones drummer; i.e. that he is the drummer for Mick. He follows Mick very much. He's great show drummer, punctuating what Jagger is doing vocally, lyrically too.
In the studio he adapts according to the song. I think some of Charlie's best drumming is on the ballads like "Memory Motel", "Let it Loose", "If you really want to be", "Till the Next Goodbye".

A few years ago Mick said that when they started out, Charlie played a shuffle where other rock bands wouldn't, and it made the Stones sound unique.

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Justin
I always saw Charlie keeping it ridiculously tight...almost no room to "relax" in a way.

maybe it's just a question of terminology but that's like opposite to what Keith wrote about Charlie's drumming in Life.
(i'm re-reading it, and was on page 121 yesterday.)
Keith talks about the way Charlie "stretches out" the beat - "very far back with the snare and up with the high hat" ...
and now that i mention it, i recall someone else - Darryl Jones? - writing something similar:
that the "pocket" Charlie leaves open for you to "hit into" is very generous, which is crucial to the swing.

but carry on, please - i love learning about drumming (and about how to talk about it!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 10:40 by with sssoul.