Not really OT, as this thread is sure to have plenty of Stones content. Anyway, there was this woman I briefly worked with at a publishing company in New York who later went on to write for Rolling Stone and various other publications, and I once saw her being interviewed on television and she was explaining what it is that makes a song "sexist". She said a song is "sexist" when it cannot possibly be sung by a person of the opposite sex without sounding ridiculous. By that definition, songs like "Under My Thumb", or even "Stupid Girl", are not sexist, because it is possible to imagine a woman singing them. A song like Cat Stevens's "Wild World", on the other hand, is sexist, because it would sound ridiculous if it were to be sung by a woman. Just imagine these lyrics being sung by a woman to a guy.







Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-20 20:32 by tatters.

All the best rock songs are sexist!

What's wrong with it being sexy?

Quote
crumbling_mice
All the best rock songs are sexist!

Did you even read my post? The point is that a song like Under My Thumb, which is one of the best rock songs, is not sexist, because a woman could do a cover version of it, singing about a guy who was under her thumb. She could also cover Stupid Girl, changing it to Stupid Guy. But she would sound ridiculous covering the Cat Stevens song, and switching the lyrics around, because then she'd be talking to a guy and saying shit like "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy". That's what makes the Cat Stevens song sexist.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-20 20:40 by tatters.

Quote
tatters
she'd be talking to a guy and saying shit like "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy".

My wife says that to me all the time.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Are there any intelligent people here who want to have a serious discussion? I know there are a few. Maybe it's bedtime in their part of the world right now.

I'd seriously like to see Sheryl Crow or Katy Perry sing "Whole lotta Rosie" by AC/DC.

Quote
tatters
Are there any intelligent people here who want to have a serious discussion? I know there are a few.

I am very serious, not so sure about intelligent. But what is wrong with a woman saying to a man: "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy".

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Hans if you want to be Serious, I can be Roebuck.

We could start a catalog company called Serious and Roebucks.

Sometimes when a woman covers a song that's written by a guy, the results can be quite unintentionally hilarious. I couldn't find it on youtube, but there's a version of the Who's "Dr. Jimmy" sung by Linda Perry, the lead singer of 4 Non Blondes. It takes on an entirely different meaning when a woman, especially a lesbian woman, sings it without changing any of the words. Just imagine a woman singing this song.


Laugh and say I'm green
I've seen things you'll never see.
Talk behind my back
But I'm off the beaten track.
I'll take on anyone
Ain't scared of a bloody nose,
Drink till I drop down
With one eye on my clothes.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

You say she's a virgin.
I'm gonna be the first in.
Her fellah's gonna kill me?
Oh @#$%& will he.
I'm seeing double
But don't miss me if you can.
There's gonna be trouble
When she choses her man.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

I'm going back soon
Home to get the baboon
Who cut up my eye,
Tore up my Levis.
I'm feeling restless
Bring another score around
Maybe something stronger
Could really hold me down.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-20 21:10 by tatters.

I hope that joke translates across the pond

Quote
tatters
Sometimes when a woman covers a song that's written by a guy, the results can be quite unintentionally hilarious. I couldn't find it on youtube, but there's a version of the Who's "Dr. Jimmy" sung by Linda Perry, the lead singer of 4 Non Blondes. It takes on entirely different meanings when a woman, especially a lesbian woman, sings it. Just think of some of the lyrics.


Laugh and say I'm green
I've seen things you'll never see.
Talk behind my back
But I'm off the beaten track.
I'll take on anyone
Ain't scared of a bloody nose,
Drink till I drop down
With one eye on my clothes.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

You say she's a virgin.
I'm gonna be the first in.
Her fellah's gonna kill me?
Oh @#$%& will he.
I'm seeing double
But don't miss me if you can.
There's gonna be trouble
When she choses her man.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

I'm going back soon
Home to get the baboon
Who cut up my eye,
Tore up my Levis.
I'm feeling restless
Bring another score around
Maybe something stronger
Could really hold me down.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.
Got a bet there? I'll meet it.
Getting High? You can't beat it.

What is it? I'll take it.
Who is she? I'll rape it.

Doctor Jimmy and mister Jim
When I'm pilled you don't notice him,
He only comes out when I drink my gin.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

Is it me? For a moment
The stars are falling.
The heat is rising
The past is calling.

Another song that's often regarded as sexist (though I don't think it is) is this one, which also takes on a different meaning when sung by a woman:

usually misogyny is a good place to start

Courtney Love sings Under My Thumb as originally written, which makes it a song about a lesbian relationship. Would have been better if she'd gender-reversed it (his eyes are just kept to himself). It also would have been better if someone other than Courtney Love was singing it. I heard some talk many years ago about Carly Simon planning to do a cover of UMT. That might have been interesting, but I guess nothing ever came of it.






Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-21 05:17 by tatters.

Quote
tatters
Courtney sings the lyrics as originally written, which makes it a song about a lesbian relationship. Would have been better if she'd gender-reversed it (his eyes are just kept to himself).

Maybe...

Slightly off-topic, but I've always thought it strange that The Beatles didn't gender-reverse The Shirelles' 'Boys', though apparantly The Stones performed it live as 'Girls' (wish we had a recording of it!).

Quote
Sleepy City

Quote
tatters
Courtney sings the lyrics as originally written, which makes it a song about a lesbian relationship. Would have been better if she'd gender-reversed it (his eyes are just kept to himself).

Maybe...

Slightly off-topic, but I've always thought it strange that The Beatles didn't gender-reverse The Shirelles' 'Boys', though apparantly The Stones performed it live as 'Girls' (wish we had a recording of it!).

I'm sure that had something to do with Ringo (supposedly) having a large following among French homosexuals.

Quote
tatters

Quote
Sleepy City

Quote
tatters
Courtney sings the lyrics as originally written, which makes it a song about a lesbian relationship. Would have been better if she'd gender-reversed it (his eyes are just kept to himself).

Maybe...

Slightly off-topic, but I've always thought it strange that The Beatles didn't gender-reverse The Shirelles' 'Boys', though apparantly The Stones performed it live as 'Girls' (wish we had a recording of it!).

I'm sure that had something to do with Ringo (supposedly) having a large following among French homosexuals.

Not when they recorded it he didn't. They'd never even been to France at the time.

Quote
tatters

Quote
crumbling_mice
All the best rock songs are sexist!

Did you even read my post? The point is that a song like Under My Thumb, which is one of the best rock songs, is not sexist, because a woman could do a cover version of it, singing about a guy who was under her thumb. She could also cover Stupid Girl, changing it to Stupid Guy. But she would sound ridiculous covering the Cat Stevens song, and switching the lyrics around, because then she'd be talking to a guy and saying shit like "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy". That's what makes the Cat Stevens song sexist.

Keep your knickers on tatters...it was atongue in cheek comment - not intended as a objective analysis of your question. You are straying into dangerous waters with this one. A song can only be defined as sexist by the person or people who feel it is sexist. So, you could intentionally try and write a sexist song, but unless someone found it offensive it wouldn't be deemed sexist.

Quote
Sleepy City

Quote
tatters

Quote
Sleepy City

Quote
tatters
Courtney sings the lyrics as originally written, which makes it a song about a lesbian relationship. Would have been better if she'd gender-reversed it (his eyes are just kept to himself).

Maybe...

Slightly off-topic, but I've always thought it strange that The Beatles didn't gender-reverse The Shirelles' 'Boys', though apparantly The Stones performed it live as 'Girls' (wish we had a recording of it!).

I'm sure that had something to do with Ringo (supposedly) having a large following among French homosexuals.

Not when they recorded it he didn't. They'd never even been to France at the time.

I know. It was the recording that made the French boys think Richie was "rough trade".

LOL

"richie was rough trade"

Quote
tatters
She said a song is "sexist" when it cannot possibly be sung by a person of the opposite sex without sounding ridiculous.

Pretty simple-minded definition, IMO.

I think it does not matter who performs a particular song.
It goes back to the song-writer, and his/her intent when penning the lyrics.

Having said that, I would agree the two Stones songs in question, Under My Thumb & Stupid Girl are not sexist, but for different reasons.

In UMT, Mick sings about a girl "who once pushed me around" and "the change has come, she's under my thumb."
Sounds like he is singing about a woman who dominated his life, but now he's broken free of that domination.
I don't see sexism there.

Stupid Girl comes a bit closer to sexism, but Mick is singing about only one girl.
I haven't heard the song in quite a long time, but I don't think Mick sings about all girls being stupid.

My definition of sexism is gender discrimination based on stereotypes, so the first Stones song that comes to my mind as being sexist is Some Girls.
Not only does Mick sing about girls in general, but he manages to include nationality and race into the mix!

Gotta admit, I was floored by this tune when it came out. Has anyone ever heard this on regular radio?
Nice slideshow on this one, BTW:

Why doesn't some chick do a gender-flipped cover of Cockysucker Blues..
....It'd be a smasho-hit and gauranteed hit-ons for the darling.....mmmmm



ROCKMAN

Quote
Rockman
Why doesn't some chick do a gender-flipped cover of Cockysucker Blues..

I think Liz Phair comes pretty close to that.

Quote
tatters
But she would sound ridiculous covering the Cat Stevens song, and switching the lyrics around, because then she'd be talking to a guy and saying shit like "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy". That's what makes the Cat Stevens song sexist.

Isn't it sexist to assume that a woman wouldn't say that to a man?

I consider Tom Jones' She's a Lady to be a sexist song. It says a lady should always know her place and always have something nice to say.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-20 23:40 by ryanpow.

Quote
Rolling Hansie
But what is wrong with a woman saying to a man: "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear" and "I never want to see you sad, boy. Don't be a bad boy".

Just quoting myself, since I still haven't got an answer

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

the singer can be lesbian. there are no sexist songs then.

Sexist with a Ukulele.......................






__________________________

So say, if someone sings "Women/Men are all stupid" it's not sexist because it can be sung about either genre.
Makes perfect sense...