What would have been of the Stones without the sidemen musicians? Of course, i do not consider Stu a sidemen. What do you think might have happened if they never called in a sidemen? Do you think they would have been as inspired as they´ve been without them? i bet that not....

And btw, who was the first ever sidemen?

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varilla
What would have been of the Stones without the sidemen musicians? Of course, i do not consider Stu a sidemen. What do you think might have happened if they never called in a sidemen? Do you think they would have been as inspired as they´ve been without them? i bet that not....

And btw, who was the first ever sidemen?

Didn't Jack Nitzsche play piano on Now! ??

ETA: I think sidemen (sidepersons?) added immensely to much of their music, and influenced their later efforts as well.

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varilla
And btw, who was the first ever sidemen?

In concert I'm guessing it was the percussionist on Rock & Roll Circus (as for in the studio... Phil Spector perhaps?).

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KSIE

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varilla
What would have been of the Stones without the sidemen musicians? Of course, i do not consider Stu a sidemen. What do you think might have happened if they never called in a sidemen? Do you think they would have been as inspired as they´ve been without them? i bet that not....

And btw, who was the first ever sidemen?

Didn't Jack Nitzsche play piano on Now! ??

Phil Spector played piano on the first album.

Jimmy Miller--producer, drummer/percussionist--key to the Great Era of the Rolling Stones.

also Nicky and Bobby.

Something like this:

Yes, that´s how they sound without any sidemen, but i wonder if a lot of great songs from the late sixties on would even exist without the collaboration/inspiration of the giant sidemen (Nicky, Bobby, Billy,etc, etc)

I think the sidemen were very important both musically and socially. If Keith hadn´t got these buddies, maybe he would have burnt his relation with Mick much sooner than he did. It would be very exhausting for Mick.
Well, all this is mere speculation of course, who knows.....

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DandelionPowderman
Something like this:

This also proves why they need backing singers these days, as no other band member is capable &/or can be bothered.

No, that's how they sounded six years ago without the sidemen. We don't have much of an idea as to how they'd sound now. (But I'd like to find out.)

Pop! (That's the sound of the top coming off a big can of worms.

I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on sidemen (or sidepersons), but when did the role of bassist become a sideman position?

Hats off to Darryl Jones, baby ... 18 years holding down the bass end of things and he's all but invisible unless you're at a show. When's the last time you saw a group photo that included Darryl?

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DandelionPowderman
Something like this:

I think they sound great here. And I liked their "b-stage" performances on their last tours. They should do again a tour with less side musicians. Only piano/keyboards and brass would be perfect.

The vocal chores are too much for Jagger to handle alone at this late date. Fowler and Fisher help, not hurt the overall sound.

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OlRiddim
Pop! (That's the sound of the top coming off a big can of worms.

I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on sidemen (or sidepersons), but when did the role of bassist become a sideman position?

When Wyman left...Darryl's a sidemen, why would he appear on any photos? Bobby Keys has been playing with the Stones on-and-off since 1969 and he never appeared on any group photos.

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stones78

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OlRiddim
Pop! (That's the sound of the top coming off a big can of worms.

I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on sidemen (or sidepersons), but when did the role of bassist become a sideman position?

When Wyman left...Darryl's a sidemen, why would he appear on any photos? Bobby Keys has been playing with the Stones on-and-off since 1969 and he never appeared on any group photos.

Totally agree about Bobby. My point is: Bill wasn't considered a sideman - but DJ is.

Does this help: Are we going by founders here? Then what about MT taking over for Brian? Ronnie replacing MT?

What about the "engine room" of bass/drums?

Or does it just make for neater packaging?

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kowalski
They should do again a tour with less side musicians. Only piano/keyboards and brass would be perfect.

Do we really need the brass on every tour? They had none in 1975, 1976 & 1978, & only one sax player in 1981. Just Bobby would be fine by me.

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Shawn20
The vocal chores are too much for Jagger to handle alone at this late date. Fowler and Fisher help, not hurt the overall sound.

I agree. Certainly more essential than the brass.

Interestingly both Billy Preston & Ollie Brown appeared in some 1975 (& 1976?) publicity shots, though I guess it was easier with just two extra musicians (or three, as Ronnie wasn't a Rolling Stone yet in 1975):





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-14 19:55 by Sleepy City.

Obviously they have treated Darryl as a sideman. I don't think he has the freedom in the studio that Bill had, or on stage. I thought he did well on 'Voodoo Lounge', but he's left no imprint on the Stones' sound. I think they pretty much tell him what to play. It seems the Stones pretty much took Bill for granted and are shocked at how well regarded and missed he is now. Or they felt they had to perversely not let Bill know how good he was to keep him in line. All I know is that Bill nailed the bass down live, enabling the others the freedom to create. I watched the Wembley '82 DVD the other night and Bill just kills on Miss You. The rest of the band seemed a little off and he kept it all together.

Whatever genius Bill had, Darryl doesn't seem to possess that. At least not in his playing with the Stones. I can think of many unique Bill bass lines that 'make' the song, with Miss You and Start Me Up at the top. I can't honestly say that about Darryl. He doesn't feel like a full, contributing member of the band. And I don't see where he's recording on the side with the kind of jazz players who made his reputation, so I can hear him play on those terms. At that level I don't even consider him one of the best sidemen they've had. That holy circle has Keyes, Hopkins, Preston, and maybe a shout out to Ry Cooder & Harvey Mandel.

Daryl not being a member is a Corporate (Rolling Stones Inc.) decision, isn't it? They don't want to cut him in for a full share. So, he's a hired-hand, e.g. sideman, in a financial sense more than anything else.

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24FPS
That holy circle has Keyes, Hopkins, Preston, and maybe a shout out to Ry Cooder & Harvey Mandel.

Hopkins is my man out of that lot, as he was also essential to some of their pre-Beggar's Banquet recordings (check out 'We Love You' & 'She's A Rainbow'), but one sideman who rarely gets mentioned is Jack Nitzschz, possibly because no-one seems quite sure what he did or didn't contribute:

[en.wikipedia.org]

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KSIE
Daryl not being a member is a Corporate (Rolling Stones Inc.) decision, isn't it? They don't want to cut him in for a full share. So, he's a hired-hand, e.g. sideman, in a financial sense more than anything else.

Even Ronnie was only a half-Stone (ie he got paid 50% of what the others earnt) until after Bill left.

Was Mick Taylor paid as a full Stone?

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Sleepy City

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KSIE
Daryl not being a member is a Corporate (Rolling Stones Inc.) decision, isn't it? They don't want to cut him in for a full share. So, he's a hired-hand, e.g. sideman, in a financial sense more than anything else.

Even Ronnie was only a half-Stone (ie he got paid 50% of what the others earnt) until after Bill left.

Was Mick Taylor paid as a full Stone?

I believe Taylor joined as a full member right from the beginning. I always thought it was odd they took over 15 years to cut Ronnie in. Maybe he was on probation all that time.

Jack and then Nicky were vital to the sound of the 60's stones!

Their studio albums would be far less interesting without the session folks contributions!

Jack Nitzsche was great, he's all over Between The Buttons on piano, and he played great on Sister Morphine too, on Sticky Fingers Stu, Nicky, Jack, J. Dickinson and Jim Price all play piano, all fantastic.

So probably Jack Nitzchs was probably the first outsider to be included in a recording.
Who might be the first non english to get in there?

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OlRiddim

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stones78

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OlRiddim
Pop! (That's the sound of the top coming off a big can of worms.

I'm not sure where the line gets drawn on sidemen (or sidepersons), but when did the role of bassist become a sideman position?

When Wyman left...Darryl's a sidemen, why would he appear on any photos? Bobby Keys has been playing with the Stones on-and-off since 1969 and he never appeared on any group photos.

Totally agree about Bobby. My point is: Bill wasn't considered a sideman - but DJ is.

Does this help: Are we going by founders here? Then what about MT taking over for Brian? Ronnie replacing MT?

What about the "engine room" of bass/drums?

Or does it just make for neater packaging?

Ronnie was a 'sideman' for almost two decades. He didnt 'replace' Taylor in the true sense of the word for a long time. He was a salaried employee.

Its quite simple. The Stones had signed an extremely lucrative deal with Virgin/EMI just a couple of years before Darryl Jones came on board. There's no way he was going to just end up walking into the band and getting a 20% cut of that.

If anything, Ronnie actually replaced Bill in that he signed the Virgin/EMI deal and Bill didnt as he was in the process of leaving the band. Even now, his status in the band as a board member is actually less than what Bill's was.

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varilla
So probably Jack Nitzchs was probably the first outsider to be included in a recording.
Who might be the first non english to get in there?

Ian Stewart!

I do not consider Stu a sideman Gazza. We know he is a true ORIGINAL...

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varilla
So probably Jack Nitzchs was probably the first outsider to be included in a recording.

Who might be the first non english to get in there?

As I said earlier, Phil Spector (also Gene Pitney)...and Jack was American! [en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-14 22:02 by Sleepy City.

And the most "HEAVY" sidemen ? Maybe, unfortunately, Chuck Leavell.

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varilla
And the most "HEAVY" sidemen ? Maybe, unfortunately, Chuck Leavell.

Bobby & Daryl are fatter!