Tell Me :
Talk
The Exile vinyl is digitally sourced, so you're basically playing a CD on a record player.
You can almost always tell a digital from an an analog source on vinyl. You'll hear far more detail on an analog source (because analog holds far more information than digital). For example, I bought the reissue of PIL's Metal Box on vinyl. It sounded no different to the bog standard CD - tinny, with the bass turned down. On the original vinyl the bass was so loud I literally felt the waves.
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analog sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 00:50 by Nikolai.
Indeed, they do, mate. Hope we'll get something ala the Deluxe Station for Low and Heroes next year
That would be great, but I'm not sure it'll happen.
I know Tony Visconti mastered Low for 5.1 last year, but I'm not sure if EMI will release it before Bowie's deal expires/they get bought out. Heroes won't come out again any time soon. Shame. That was the best new Bowie vinyl I've heard since the Bob Ludwig mastered Let's Dance (the US pressing).
Pro-Ject do some great turntables. Some have a USB output so you can copy your vinyl to computer, which is what I've been doing a lot of late - especially bass heavy albums which have always sounded crap on CD.
A very dubious statement; it seems next to impossible to me. I think that it is important to doubt the master; but mainly because original masters may have been mixed better.
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good but the frequency response is much better. But hidef 24/96 digital is probably better than any vinyl audio.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 08:00 by lsbz.
True but unfortunately the dynamics range of CDs is under-used with today's mastering trends (over-the-top compression).
Can anyone tell me why The Man Who Sold The World and Bowie's greatest album IMO Hunky Dory were left off the current reissue series? Sure's there early re-releases with a few extra trax but nothing like the grandeur afford later albums.
Volume compression has always been around; I don't know if it is specific for CD's as compared to vinyl. But reviews seem to indicate that hidef digital audio, like SACD and DVDA, is often less compressed than CD's.
Yes, but since we were comparing vinyl versus digital quality, one has to consider that vinyl has at least 20dB less maximal SNR than CD, and may be volume-compressed as well. The medium itself is not relevant for the level of volume-compression. And hidef digital audio is a step up, even if the CD is moderately or not at all volume-compressed.
I believe that mp3 can retain full dynamics; the main issue is a worse frequency response.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 17:30 by lsbz.
I wasn't clear enough - by master I meant master tapes - the multi-track recording master aspect of it, not the actual mastering. The use of tape will sound better regardless.
I think that most digital mixing and mastering in professional studio's is done in 24/96 at least and I doubt that there is a quality diffence with good analogue tape. According to some, analogue tape has some specific qualities that make it sound better in some respects, but there are disadvantages as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 17:40 by lsbz.
Baffling isn't it? They reissued an expanded Space Oddity, yet couldn't see fit to bring out an expanded Hunky Dory (home to two of DB's most famous songs), or The Man Who Sold The World - in many ways a dry-run for Ziggy.
I did ask my mate who used to work at EMI. He explained that the marketing people decided to reissue the 'best known' Bowie albums first - in short, everything from Ziggy onwards (excluding Pin-Ups). Of course, we know what happened to those plans ...
Maybe Bowie's next record company custodian will release HD and TMWSTW.
Whitey - Happy 2011, mate. In fact, happy new decade. The tens are upon us ...
Anyway, the vinyl is the way to go with the deluxe set. I thought the CD was excellent - and I was a big fan of the original RCA Euro pressing too (which they helpfully included ), but the vinyl is extraordinary. Have you played the live album on vinyl? Night and day with the CD too. Really superb sounding album.
I gave the 5.1 another listen. Avoid.
Talk about your favorite band.
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OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: December 28, 2010 23:13
Noticing that many record companies are still releasing music on vinyl, I was wondering how one can tell the difference between those that are analogue and those which are digital masters? Is it just down to the ear to decipher, or is their often some indication on the sleeve? I really rather ignorant when it comes to vinyl and would appreciate some pointers from those who are more knowledgeable. For instance, is the recent Exile vinyl analogue or digital? It sounds dreadful to my ears, so I’m guessing it’s the latter.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: December 29, 2010 16:59
This is a good question. I'm guessing that most of todays vinyl comes from a digital source. Which kind of contradicts the "back to black" slogan they add to these records. Maybe in the future there will be a return to analog sound on vinyl? Let's hope.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Doc
()
Date: December 29, 2010 17:37
Despite being digital, the new 1964-1969 LP box sounds really good.
Then again, I haven't one of these expensive audiophile systems, just a decent hifi...
[doctorstonesblog.blogspot.com]
Then again, I haven't one of these expensive audiophile systems, just a decent hifi...
[doctorstonesblog.blogspot.com]
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Nikolai
()
Date: December 29, 2010 18:54
Quote
Big Al
Noticing that many record companies are still releasing music on vinyl, I was wondering how one can tell the difference between those that are analogue and those which are digital masters? Is it just down to the ear to decipher, or is their often some indication on the sleeve? I really rather ignorant when it comes to vinyl and would appreciate some pointers from those who are more knowledgeable. For instance, is the recent Exile vinyl analogue or digital? It sounds dreadful to my ears, so I’m guessing it’s the latter.
The Exile vinyl is digitally sourced, so you're basically playing a CD on a record player.
You can almost always tell a digital from an an analog source on vinyl. You'll hear far more detail on an analog source (because analog holds far more information than digital). For example, I bought the reissue of PIL's Metal Box on vinyl. It sounded no different to the bog standard CD - tinny, with the bass turned down. On the original vinyl the bass was so loud I literally felt the waves.
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analog sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 00:50 by Nikolai.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Erik_Snow
()
Date: December 29, 2010 20:54
Quote
Nikolai
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analogue sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Indeed, they do, mate. Hope we'll get something ala the Deluxe Station for Low and Heroes next year
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: December 29, 2010 21:08
Thank you for the advive so far. OK, so i'm guessing that if I wish to invest in vinyl, it needs to be of a certain vintage! I have a few recent issue 45's - The Killers, Libertines, etc - and most sound lousy. I'll then stick on my Track 45rpm of Pictures Of Lily and get blown away!
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
RobberBride
()
Date: December 29, 2010 21:15
The new mono vinyl box of Dylans first LPs also get great reviews, they´re from the analogue mono masters, and cleaned up real well, but thats all I know. But sure anxious to take a listen.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
crumbling_mice
()
Date: December 29, 2010 21:30
I really wished I had kept my old turntable, I sold it when I switched to cd's. Fortunatley, I've still got 200 old vinyl LP's so I intend to get another turntable as I really am not impressed with cd's. There is no doubt in my mind that original analogue vinyl can't be beaten - it's such a deep warm sound with great bass tones. Cd's are just so narrow in sound and MP3's even worse.
If you can do it my friend get yourself some old copies of your favourites LP's on analogue vinyl.
If you can do it my friend get yourself some old copies of your favourites LP's on analogue vinyl.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: December 29, 2010 21:34
Quote
Big Al
I'll then stick on my Track 45rpm of Pictures Of Lily and get blown away!
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: December 29, 2010 23:13
Regardless of recorded on tape or digital, they still get cleaned up through a digital process. The original signal, analogue v digital, is probably the ultimate reason it sounds "good" or not.
I would tend to believe that a digital recording put on vinyl sounds not as good as an analogue recording put on vinyl, regardless of digital editing, cleaning up and mastering. Even CDs that are analogue recordings master wise v digital recordings master wise sound better on CD!
I would tend to believe that a digital recording put on vinyl sounds not as good as an analogue recording put on vinyl, regardless of digital editing, cleaning up and mastering. Even CDs that are analogue recordings master wise v digital recordings master wise sound better on CD!
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Nikolai
()
Date: December 30, 2010 01:02
Quote
Erik_SnowQuote
Nikolai
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analogue sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Indeed, they do, mate. Hope we'll get something ala the Deluxe Station for Low and Heroes next year
That would be great, but I'm not sure it'll happen.
I know Tony Visconti mastered Low for 5.1 last year, but I'm not sure if EMI will release it before Bowie's deal expires/they get bought out. Heroes won't come out again any time soon. Shame. That was the best new Bowie vinyl I've heard since the Bob Ludwig mastered Let's Dance (the US pressing).
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Nikolai
()
Date: December 30, 2010 01:14
Quote
crumbling_mice
I really wished I had kept my old turntable, I sold it when I switched to cd's. Fortunatley, I've still got 200 old vinyl LP's so I intend to get another turntable as I really am not impressed with cd's. There is no doubt in my mind that original analogue vinyl can't be beaten - it's such a deep warm sound with great bass tones. Cd's are just so narrow in sound and MP3's even worse.
If you can do it my friend get yourself some old copies of your favourites LP's on analogue vinyl.
Pro-Ject do some great turntables. Some have a USB output so you can copy your vinyl to computer, which is what I've been doing a lot of late - especially bass heavy albums which have always sounded crap on CD.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
marquess
()
Date: December 30, 2010 02:19
Hi Big Al,
you just put on your thread a delicious question!!
Indeed the Major labels (Universal and others) are again (and not still) as you wrote releasing music in this format.
Again because they stopped releasing, in the 90's, vinyls because of the explosion and (at the time) victory of the digital audio format.
What happened (in my opinion):
due to the dematerialization of music, and its widely accepted compressed formats (MP3, Wav, Wma, etc.) the CD physical format lost its sense; because, for the common music consumer, the loss of quality from a digital source (CD) to a digital compressed format is inaudible.
That took to the progressive sales slump of CD.
Record Companies reaction:
They started reissuing LP´s because many music consumers look for them for several reasons:
- Nostalgia
- Art (that is, not only the music itself, but the graphic artistic importance of an LP (Sticky Fingers, dark Side of the Moon, etc)
- Sound ! Yes Vinyl does sound better: Specially if it is sourced from the Original Analog Master tapes, rather than a digital remaster.
- if you have the LP´s listen to Steel Wheels or Flashpoint (both digital recordings) and listen to Voodoo Lounge (a return to analog recording in studio).
SW and FP have an overall sound I consider a bit antiseptic and overall flat.
Voodoo Lounge has a clarity and a sense of intimacy present that can only be given by analog recording process.
Well I hope a I helped you to prefer vinyl over digital (you don´t have do own utra expensive gear to notice and feel all the difference!)
Kind regards
you just put on your thread a delicious question!!
Indeed the Major labels (Universal and others) are again (and not still) as you wrote releasing music in this format.
Again because they stopped releasing, in the 90's, vinyls because of the explosion and (at the time) victory of the digital audio format.
What happened (in my opinion):
due to the dematerialization of music, and its widely accepted compressed formats (MP3, Wav, Wma, etc.) the CD physical format lost its sense; because, for the common music consumer, the loss of quality from a digital source (CD) to a digital compressed format is inaudible.
That took to the progressive sales slump of CD.
Record Companies reaction:
They started reissuing LP´s because many music consumers look for them for several reasons:
- Nostalgia
- Art (that is, not only the music itself, but the graphic artistic importance of an LP (Sticky Fingers, dark Side of the Moon, etc)
- Sound ! Yes Vinyl does sound better: Specially if it is sourced from the Original Analog Master tapes, rather than a digital remaster.
- if you have the LP´s listen to Steel Wheels or Flashpoint (both digital recordings) and listen to Voodoo Lounge (a return to analog recording in studio).
SW and FP have an overall sound I consider a bit antiseptic and overall flat.
Voodoo Lounge has a clarity and a sense of intimacy present that can only be given by analog recording process.
Well I hope a I helped you to prefer vinyl over digital (you don´t have do own utra expensive gear to notice and feel all the difference!)
Kind regards
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
dancingmisterd
()
Date: December 30, 2010 02:59
I like turntables but they can be fickle beasts to set up. Balancing and weights.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
lsbz
()
Date: December 30, 2010 07:51
Quote
skipstone
Even CDs that are analogue recordings master wise v digital recordings master wise sound better on CD!
A very dubious statement; it seems next to impossible to me. I think that it is important to doubt the master; but mainly because original masters may have been mixed better.
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good but the frequency response is much better. But hidef 24/96 digital is probably better than any vinyl audio.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 08:00 by lsbz.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
gwen
()
Date: December 30, 2010 13:32
Quote
lsbz
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good
True but unfortunately the dynamics range of CDs is under-used with today's mastering trends (over-the-top compression).
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: December 30, 2010 13:46
Quote
Erik_SnowQuote
Nikolai
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analogue sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Indeed, they do, mate. Hope we'll get something ala the Deluxe Station for Low and Heroes next year
Can anyone tell me why The Man Who Sold The World and Bowie's greatest album IMO Hunky Dory were left off the current reissue series? Sure's there early re-releases with a few extra trax but nothing like the grandeur afford later albums.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
pike bishop
()
Date: December 30, 2010 14:35
I read sometime ago that todays producers and engineers mix albums to suit mp3 players,God help us all.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
lsbz
()
Date: December 30, 2010 15:01
Quote
gwenQuote
lsbz
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good
True but unfortunately the dynamics range of CDs is under-used with today's mastering trends (over-the-top compression).
Volume compression has always been around; I don't know if it is specific for CD's as compared to vinyl. But reviews seem to indicate that hidef digital audio, like SACD and DVDA, is often less compressed than CD's.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
gwen
()
Date: December 30, 2010 16:22
The volume compression has always been around, indeed. It may be because of MP3 or because most people now listen to music with earphones or in the car - but the trend (since 15 years) is to maximise loudness and decrease the dynamics range. Which is a shame since the CDs allow a greater dynamics range.
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: December 30, 2010 16:38
It's all about the "lowest common denominator".
There is no longer a mass market music format of any genuine quality.
The industry can foist on us whatever it likes because we've forgotten how good recorded music can sound !
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 16:39 by Spud.
There is no longer a mass market music format of any genuine quality.
The industry can foist on us whatever it likes because we've forgotten how good recorded music can sound !
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 16:39 by Spud.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
lsbz
()
Date: December 30, 2010 17:23
Quote
gwen
The volume compression has always been around, indeed. It may be because of MP3 or because most people now listen to music with earphones or in the car - but the trend (since 15 years) is to maximise loudness and decrease the dynamics range. Which is a shame since the CDs allow a greater dynamics range.
Yes, but since we were comparing vinyl versus digital quality, one has to consider that vinyl has at least 20dB less maximal SNR than CD, and may be volume-compressed as well. The medium itself is not relevant for the level of volume-compression. And hidef digital audio is a step up, even if the CD is moderately or not at all volume-compressed.
I believe that mp3 can retain full dynamics; the main issue is a worse frequency response.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-30 17:30 by lsbz.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
marquess
()
Date: December 31, 2010 16:44
Vinyl is more pleasant to ear than CD or MP 3
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: December 31, 2010 17:27
Quote
lsbzQuote
skipstone
Even CDs that are analogue recordings master wise v digital recordings master wise sound better on CD!
A very dubious statement; it seems next to impossible to me. I think that it is important to doubt the master; but mainly because original masters may have been mixed better.
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good but the frequency response is much better. But hidef 24/96 digital is probably better than any vinyl audio.
I wasn't clear enough - by master I meant master tapes - the multi-track recording master aspect of it, not the actual mastering. The use of tape will sound better regardless.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
lsbz
()
Date: December 31, 2010 17:31
Quote
skipstoneQuote
lsbzQuote
skipstone
Even CDs that are analogue recordings master wise v digital recordings master wise sound better on CD!
A very dubious statement; it seems next to impossible to me. I think that it is important to doubt the master; but mainly because original masters may have been mixed better.
As to analogue versus CD audio in general: dynamics of vinyl is not very good but the frequency response is much better. But hidef 24/96 digital is probably better than any vinyl audio.
I wasn't clear enough - by master I meant master tapes - the multi-track recording master aspect of it, not the actual mastering. The use of tape will sound better regardless.
I think that most digital mixing and mastering in professional studio's is done in 24/96 at least and I doubt that there is a quality diffence with good analogue tape. According to some, analogue tape has some specific qualities that make it sound better in some respects, but there are disadvantages as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 17:40 by lsbz.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: December 31, 2010 17:59
Well, I've worked with both. Recorded bottoms to analogue then that was uploaded to Pro Tools for overdubbing and editing/mixing. Also recorded strictly to Pro Tools for everything. There is a difference - the analogue based recordings sound a bit warmer than the digital. On CD.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
lsbz
()
Date: December 31, 2010 18:41
Some people seem to think that vinyl sounds warmer too, but I really don't know if that should be regarded as something good or as a sonic artifact. I have nothing against such preferences, but I doubt that they are based on actual improvements. One advantage of tape seems to be the saturation effect, but that could possibly be emulated with software.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 18:43 by lsbz.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 18:43 by lsbz.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Nikolai
()
Date: December 31, 2010 20:05
Quote
Silver DaggerQuote
Erik_SnowQuote
Nikolai
Conversely, David Bowie's Station to Station Deluxe included vinyl pressings of both the remastered album and the Nassau Collisseum gig. Both were analogue sourced and sound spectacular on vinyl.
Indeed, they do, mate. Hope we'll get something ala the Deluxe Station for Low and Heroes next year
Can anyone tell me why The Man Who Sold The World and Bowie's greatest album IMO Hunky Dory were left off the current reissue series? Sure's there early re-releases with a few extra trax but nothing like the grandeur afford later albums.
Baffling isn't it? They reissued an expanded Space Oddity, yet couldn't see fit to bring out an expanded Hunky Dory (home to two of DB's most famous songs), or The Man Who Sold The World - in many ways a dry-run for Ziggy.
I did ask my mate who used to work at EMI. He explained that the marketing people decided to reissue the 'best known' Bowie albums first - in short, everything from Ziggy onwards (excluding Pin-Ups). Of course, we know what happened to those plans ...
Maybe Bowie's next record company custodian will release HD and TMWSTW.
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: January 1, 2011 23:49
Nikolai,
Happy new years! I hope you are well.
Hey, I got the Deluxe Station to Station for Christmas, and I am stunned! My god what a piece of art! Incredible! So much eye candy and ear candy. What a way to release a deluxe box set. Hell even the box is art with the sound proof cone padding replicating the cover!
I haven't listend to the 5.1 yet, and I remember you and Erik said it wasn't that great. But wow! The vinyl is incredible!
Happy new years! I hope you are well.
Hey, I got the Deluxe Station to Station for Christmas, and I am stunned! My god what a piece of art! Incredible! So much eye candy and ear candy. What a way to release a deluxe box set. Hell even the box is art with the sound proof cone padding replicating the cover!
I haven't listend to the 5.1 yet, and I remember you and Erik said it wasn't that great. But wow! The vinyl is incredible!
Re: OT: Vinyl - Analouge & Digital
Posted by:
Nikolai
()
Date: January 4, 2011 23:31
Quote
whitem8
Nikolai,
Happy new years! I hope you are well.
Hey, I got the Deluxe Station to Station for Christmas, and I am stunned! My god what a piece of art! Incredible! So much eye candy and ear candy. What a way to release a deluxe box set. Hell even the box is art with the sound proof cone padding replicating the cover!
I haven't listend to the 5.1 yet, and I remember you and Erik said it wasn't that great. But wow! The vinyl is incredible!
Whitey - Happy 2011, mate. In fact, happy new decade. The tens are upon us ...
Anyway, the vinyl is the way to go with the deluxe set. I thought the CD was excellent - and I was a big fan of the original RCA Euro pressing too (which they helpfully included ), but the vinyl is extraordinary. Have you played the live album on vinyl? Night and day with the CD too. Really superb sounding album.
I gave the 5.1 another listen. Avoid.
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