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sweetcharmedlife
It's not idol hero worship to enjoy someone's music. In the end he paid the ultimate price himself. It's not like he's still alive and counted to tour and cancelling scheduled gigs or anything.

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71Tele

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sweetcharmedlife
It's not idol hero worship to enjoy someone's music. In the end he paid the ultimate price himself. It's not like he's still alive and counted to tour and cancelling scheduled gigs or anything.

Not sure that you really are making a valid point, as I never said merely enjoying someone's music was idol hero worship, NOR did I say that he didn't pay a price for his lifestyle/behavior. I think if you look at my other posts it is pretty clear what I meant, which is that the image of Garcia to a lot of his fans and followers is vastly different to the reality, and I think that those kinds of illusions do not serve us well. As I have made this point repeatedly in this thread I will just leave it there. Those who don't agree, ok by me.

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sweetcharmedlife

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71Tele

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sweetcharmedlife
It's not idol hero worship to enjoy someone's music. In the end he paid the ultimate price himself. It's not like he's still alive and counted to tour and cancelling scheduled gigs or anything.

Not sure that you really are making a valid point, as I never said merely enjoying someone's music was idol hero worship, NOR did I say that he didn't pay a price for his lifestyle/behavior. I think if you look at my other posts it is pretty clear what I meant, which is that the image of Garcia to a lot of his fans and followers is vastly different to the reality, and I think that those kinds of illusions do not serve us well. As I have made this point repeatedly in this thread I will just leave it there. Those who don't agree, ok by me.

I was speaking generally. That's why I didn't qoute you. I get your point.

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baxlap
What bugs me about Garcia was how his heroin habit diminished his prolificness as a songwriter. Sure, he and Hunter came up with some gems after he got hooked in 1976 (e.g., Terrapin, Touch of Grey, West L.A. Fadeaway, Black Muddy River, Days Between, and So Many Roads), but there was a time when those two were good for more than an album's worth of gems a year.

It's a damn shame that he squandered his songwriting talent so. On the last Dead studio album, there were more Brent Mydland songs than Jerry Garcia songs.

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71Tele

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baxlap
What bugs me about Garcia was how his heroin habit diminished his prolificness as a songwriter. Sure, he and Hunter came up with some gems after he got hooked in 1976 (e.g., Terrapin, Touch of Grey, West L.A. Fadeaway, Black Muddy River, Days Between, and So Many Roads), but there was a time when those two were good for more than an album's worth of gems a year.

It's a damn shame that he squandered his songwriting talent so. On the last Dead studio album, there were more Brent Mydland songs than Jerry Garcia songs.

Didn't it adversely affect his playing as well? he was nearly always seated during their last years, and the old fluidity just wasn't there. He seemed to struggle.

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baxlap

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71Tele

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baxlap
What bugs me about Garcia was how his heroin habit diminished his prolificness as a songwriter. Sure, he and Hunter came up with some gems after he got hooked in 1976 (e.g., Terrapin, Touch of Grey, West L.A. Fadeaway, Black Muddy River, Days Between, and So Many Roads), but there was a time when those two were good for more than an album's worth of gems a year.

It's a damn shame that he squandered his songwriting talent so. On the last Dead studio album, there were more Brent Mydland songs than Jerry Garcia songs.

Didn't it adversely affect his playing as well? he was nearly always seated during their last years, and the old fluidity just wasn't there. He seemed to struggle.

I never saw him play seated. He barely moved and often appeared to be in his own little world, but he always stood.

Heroin killed his voice, particularly in the early '80's. I refer to his singing at the time as his "Jeroin" voice. While he was often more expressive, he often couldn't hit notes and forgot a lot of words.

His played became erratic, particularly when he had carpal tunnel issues toward the end. Sure, he wasn't as fluid, but he remained a compelling improvisation guitarist. When the big guy was on, he could still deliver. Check out a good 1989 or '90 show.

Don't bother with shows from '93 to '95, however. Some of those are just sad.

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71Tele
<< While it could be argued that Tele has been a little harsh and ready to argue the issue, there is nothing wrong in him pointing out the truth. I think you do better by those you admire by acknowledging the good equally with the bad, and seeing them for what they are, instead of putting them on a pedestal and blindly finding justifications for faults you would normally so easily damn other less notorious people for. >>

Thank you busted, for making my point better than I did. It's the blind hero-worship aspect that is offensive to me. I don't look at Garcia in terms of moral judgments, deeming him "wrong" or "immoral". I was trying to point out the wide disparity between his and the Dead's hippie-dippie flower power, peace & love image, and the much more complex and darker reality, because I think these distinctions have meaning and are important. I think we should understand our world, musicians, politicians, religious leaders, sports figures, as they really are, not just buy the image we are sold. "Jerry Garcia" was a product and image as much as Tiger Woods or George Bush were. There was, however, a real Jerry Garcia, who was much more complex. It does not take away from his talent. I know that is painful or unpleasant for some people to hear. Was I too harsh in expressing my opinion? Probably, and that's a fault of mine.

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baxlap
I see the Jerry/Keef comparisons all too clearly, and they just bum me out.

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bustedtrousers

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71Tele
<< While it could be argued that Tele has been a little harsh and ready to argue the issue, there is nothing wrong in him pointing out the truth. I think you do better by those you admire by acknowledging the good equally with the bad, and seeing them for what they are, instead of putting them on a pedestal and blindly finding justifications for faults you would normally so easily damn other less notorious people for. >>

Thank you busted, for making my point better than I did. It's the blind hero-worship aspect that is offensive to me. I don't look at Garcia in terms of moral judgments, deeming him "wrong" or "immoral". I was trying to point out the wide disparity between his and the Dead's hippie-dippie flower power, peace & love image, and the much more complex and darker reality, because I think these distinctions have meaning and are important. I think we should understand our world, musicians, politicians, religious leaders, sports figures, as they really are, not just buy the image we are sold. "Jerry Garcia" was a product and image as much as Tiger Woods or George Bush were. There was, however, a real Jerry Garcia, who was much more complex. It does not take away from his talent. I know that is painful or unpleasant for some people to hear. Was I too harsh in expressing my opinion? Probably, and that's a fault of mine.

I'm glad you appreciate my effort to bring some sensibility to the topic at hand Tele. Personally, I don't think you were too harsh, because I see Jerry the same way you do. I do get the impression I may enjoy and have a bit more reverence for Jerry and the Dead than you, however, but I still agree with you. I am far from a Deadhead though. Studio-wise, after American Beauty they lose me, except for a few random songs. Live-wise, and I know it's suppose to be their strength, they just didn't grab me much. I saw them twice, and they were amazing shows, but more as a whole experience, not because of the music, which I just didn't get.

The Grateful Dead were one of those bands I respected more than I could enjoy. I feel the same about Zappa. I know the guy was great, maybe even a genius, but outside of a few things here and there, I just don't get his music. But I respect what he did, and that's how I feel about the Dead.

I agree with your "I was trying to point out the wide disparity between his and the Dead's hippie-dippie flower power, peace & love image, and the much more complex and darker reality" statement, and I agree the distinctions have meaning and importance too. Jerry and the Dead did put out an ideal, to whatever degree, like you describe, and while they may have pulled it off initially, that ideal involved too much dancing with the devil to be a viable long-term way of life. The others seemed to realize that before Jerry, unfortunately.

Jerry did appear to essentially be a good person, who had a lot of interesting ideals that were progressive and compassionate towards his fellow man. But he also liked getting way high too much, and did not always follow his ideals and do right by his children and wives, especially in his later years. Maybe I'm wrong too, but I just can't go along with these glowing tributes without acknowledging the other side of things.

Speaking of hero-worship to the point it's offensive, when I was writing my first post, I started thinking about a certain scenario, and it's what I meant about people giving their hero's a pass on things they harshly judge others for. I wonder how many people who think so highly of Jerry would feel the same way if he wasn't a great musician who helped shape rock music in the late 60's to early 70's. What if he did everything the same, but wasn't Jerry guitarist for the Dead, and was just another junkie. What if he was married to someone's sister and treated her and their kids the way Jerry did? Would they still be so kind and reverential in their judgments?

Should being a great artist/politician/religious leader/athlete/etc. automatically absolve such a person from such judgments?

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sweetcharmedlife

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71Tele
A onetime talent who became a wheezing overweight hippie, who in his last years was more interested in his personal desire to shoot up and be a big fat junkie than in his fans, friends, family, or the supposedly trascendent music of the Dead. The myth of Tthe Dead was flower power, acid and pot, but the reality turned out to be heroin and selfishness.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

The same could ve said for Keith Richards.....And no,it didn't have to be said. You could have just left it alone and allowed people who enjoyed Jerry to pay their respects on the anniversary of his death.

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71Tele

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sweetcharmedlife

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71Tele
A onetime talent who became a wheezing overweight hippie, who in his last years was more interested in his personal desire to shoot up and be a big fat junkie than in his fans, friends, family, or the supposedly trascendent music of the Dead. The myth of Tthe Dead was flower power, acid and pot, but the reality turned out to be heroin and selfishness.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

The same could ve said for Keith Richards.....And no,it didn't have to be said. You could have just left it alone and allowed people who enjoyed Jerry to pay their respects on the anniversary of his death.

really , you should talk to insiders that know the real story .

If someone enjoys Jerry Garcia, why would whatever I say stop them? Not for me to allow it or not allow it. And yes, the same could be said for Keith Richards, except for that he mostly was able to overcome his selfish behavior.

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71Tele
<< While it could be argued that Tele has been a little harsh and ready to argue the issue, there is nothing wrong in him pointing out the truth. I think you do better by those you admire by acknowledging the good equally with the bad, and seeing them for what they are, instead of putting them on a pedestal and blindly finding justifications for faults you would normally so easily damn other less notorious people for. >>

Thank you busted, for making my point better than I did. It's the blind hero-worship aspect that is offensive to me. I don't look at Garcia in terms of moral judgments, deeming him "wrong" or "immoral". I was trying to point out the wide disparity between his and the Dead's hippie-dippie flower power, peace & love image, and the much more complex and darker reality, because I think these distinctions have meaning and are important. I think we should understand our world, musicians, politicians, religious leaders, sports figures, as they really are, not just buy the image we are sold. "Jerry Garcia" was a product and image as much as Tiger Woods or George Bush were. There was, however, a real Jerry Garcia, who was much more complex. It does not take away from his talent. I know that is painful or unpleasant for some people to hear. Was I too harsh in expressing my opinion? Probably, and that's a fault of mine.

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71Tele

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baxlap
What bugs me about Garcia was how his heroin habit diminished his prolificness as a songwriter. Sure, he and Hunter came up with some gems after he got hooked in 1976 (e.g., Terrapin, Touch of Grey, West L.A. Fadeaway, Black Muddy River, Days Between, and So Many Roads), but there was a time when those two were good for more than an album's worth of gems a year.

It's a damn shame that he squandered his songwriting talent so. On the last Dead studio album, there were more Brent Mydland songs than Jerry Garcia songs.

Didn't it adversely affect his playing as well? he was nearly always seated during their last years, and the old fluidity just wasn't there. He seemed to struggle.

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Who's Driving Your Plane?
Somebody ought to dose 71 tele with a sheet of the brown acid!!!

RIP...Captain Trips

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Who's Driving Your Plane?
Somebody ought to dose 71 tele with a sheet of the brown acid!!!

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Who's Driving Your Plane?
Somebody ought to dose 71 tele with a sheet of the brown acid!!!

RIP...Captain Trips

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sweetcharmedlife

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Who's Driving Your Plane?
Somebody ought to dose 71 tele with a sheet of the brown acid!!!

No that's allright. I think Jerry can say it for us.
"Please don't dominate the rap, jack, if you've got nothing new to say"