A controversial figure in the history of The Stones. Reading through many interviews and quotes, questions remain as to his full contribution to the their work (ie: was the electric "Honky Tonk Women" riff created by Keith, Mick Taylor, or Ry?). I remember feeling shocked when I first read about all the rumours... I wonder what exactly happened?

I am assuming most of the rumours and speculation resulted from the quotes that Ry Cooder provided to Rolling Stone magazine in the early 1970s, when he complained they were "reptilian people" and basically stole his best riffs. But apart from this one interview, I have never been able to find any further quotes from Ry Cooder on this issue. Does anyone know of further quotes from him? Do you think he contributed more than he is credited for?

Its an interesting question... If you listen to the records he was cutting back in the late 1960s, he certainly had the chops and the musical knowledge. But so did Keith. So, what story to believe?

Put all those talents in the same room together and something is bound to happen. Ry should get credit for his contibution, but he can't realistically call them "his" riffs unless he came up with them on his own.

Ry is a solid musician. Keef is the riff master. Occam's razor answers this question easily: the riffs "belong" to the Stones.

Thats an excellent point you have- he can't call them his own riffs unless he came up with them on his own. And it has made me think (for the first time) about the money Ry Cooder has made from recycling the beautiful "Dark Was The Night, Cold Was The Ground" blues riff many times over (Performance soundtrack, Paris Texas soundtrack, etc). Hmmm!

But there's something about the Ry Cooder question that I find very interesting... for example Keith has acknowledged that he learned open-G tuning from Ry.

And is that Ry playing on the "Two Trains" bootleg recording?
Is that him playing on Maryanne Faithfull's "Something Better"?
He complained that they would record him jamming without his knowledge, and use the material on Let It Bleed... Years later the Jamming With Edward LP was released...

Al Kooper claims that he hooked up Ry Cooder with the Stones because they were considering him as a new guitarist.

I think this issue attracts my curiosity because as a massive fan of the Stones, I find myself appreciating their influences and yet I'm unsure of exactly how Ry Cooder fits into their story...

I read somewhere that Ry Cooder might be playing on "Two Trains", and I read somewhere else that "Two trains" might have provided the inspiration for the guitar work in "Midnight Rambler"... if so, I think maybe thats why Ry Cooder says he didn't receive full credit for Let It Bleed? Anyway, its so long ago maybe nobody remembers

if you use the search gizmo, you'll find miles of interesting threads about Cooder and the Stones
here's one recent one: [www.iorr.org]

Awesome! Thanks sssoul, I was hoping to find something like this!

Cheers

If the song "Honky Tonk Woman" has to do with somebody else than the Stones, it's got to be Hank Williams. Hank wrote "Honky Tonk Blues" in 1952 and it was pretty much the inspirational model for HTW. The glimmer Twins "stole it well" from Hank more than Ry.
Rock and roll,
Mops

I think HTW needs more cow bell.

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blakeeik
I think HTW needs more cow bell.

a ry sense of humor

Ry is brilliant but a bit of a strange cat. Also easy to hold a grudge, according to someone I know who dealt with him, and was "fired" from a mutual project by fax by Ry (actually Ry's wife, who takes care of such matters) over a very trivial issue. I have always thought his bitterness over his Stones experience was overblown. Musicians borrow from each other all the time. If Keith did get riffs or tunings from Ry, he certainly made them his own, just as Ry has synthesized all those blues riffs and styles into his own distinctive style. I do not know if the story about the Stones recording Cooder for hours just so they could have him on tape is true or urban legend.

i don't think there's been much overblowing of the story - i doubt the average stones fan is even aware of it. i have little doubt that the story holds merit; you only need to ponder the number of musicians the stones have denied credit (song credits, for instance) to figure it out....

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T&A
i don't think there's been much overblowing of the story - i doubt the average stones fan is even aware of it. i have little doubt that the story holds merit; you only need to ponder the number of musicians the stones have denied credit (song credits, for instance) to figure it out....

Well, the Stones were (are?) notorious users of people, so it's quite possible it's true. Cooder still won't discuss it.

will "jamming with edward" ever make it to CD again?

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mothra665
will "jamming with edward" ever make it to CD again?

Yes, please!

Cooder borrowed plenty from Blind Willie Johnson....... try Paris Texas for starters........



ROCKMAN

All I know is, the man has really made some great music!!

Ry Cooder has made some excellent records and is an inspirational guitarist...however, Keith had laready started experimenting with open tunings before he met Cooder....and it was Gram Parsons who really taught him about country tunings...that's not to say he didnt learn from Ry - I'm sure he did, and I'm sure Ry learnt from Keith. The HTW riff is, to be honest not a typical Keith riff - i.e. it's a lot of hammer ons/offs and open strings in double pulls...he has used this technique but for the time it wasnt typical Keith, so maybe there is some truth that he lifted it. Doesn't matter for me, Keith plays it better than anyone could and let's face it, as someone previously pointed out, all musicians steal from other musicians just ask the old blues guys...

"Edward" should have never been released, but it is terrific as an outtake session. I have no problem listening to Bill, Charlie, Nicky and Ry diddling in the studio. I had some fun imagining the band with Ry on lead guitar. It's an intriguing idea for a day dream.

I cant remember where but I read an interview online with mick taylor where he talks about how the honky tonk woman riff is totally keith. funny too that we dont hear much about it at all if there is any truth to it. I think cooder is a bit jealous keith did much more with the open tunings than he ever did. at least in a mainstream capacity.

For what it's worth, I have a doctor who was in a band with Ry and Taj Mahal. He left to go to med school and Ry & Taj formed the Rising Sons. The Dr. who to this day is still friends with Ry said the "issues" all stem from HTW. My personal feeling is not that Ry even wanted writing credit (Which I'm sure HE feels he deserves), but he wanted the recognition of bringing the "riff" to the table.

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BluzDude
For what it's worth, I have a doctor who was in a band with Ry and Taj Mahal. He left to go to med school and Ry & Taj formed the Rising Sons. The Dr. who to this day is still friends with Ry said the "issues" all stem from HTW. My personal feeling is not that Ry even wanted writing credit (Which I'm sure HE feels he deserves), but he wanted the recognition of bringing the "riff" to the table.

Alas, riffs are not songs. Just ask Bill Wyman. Does Ry Cooder really think that riff alone would have gone anywhere without being anchored to the Jagger/Richards magic?

and considering Cooder's debt to Blind Willie Johnson (the tune from "Dark Was The Night" helped Cooder sell many records) it is a bit odd for him to complain after influencing another musician, hey.

I remember seeing a great book of photos of Ry Cooder jamming at Redlands. Book was by Michael Cooper, if memory serves me right. I've read that Cooder might be on "Two Trains/Still A Fool", and if you consider the musicianship in this song to be a pointer for Midnight Rambler, maybe thats another reason why Cooder fumed?

I don't think harshly of musicians like Cooder for their emotions, they are human after all. But it is an interesting story to untangle!

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bolexman
...And is that Ry playing on the "Two Trains" bootleg recording?
Is that him playing on Maryanne Faithfull's "Something Better"?...

Still A Fool/"Two Trains" is most probably from Olympic in May 1968 with Brian playing the slide guitar.

I believe they first met Ry Cooder in LA during the July 1968 overdubs/mixing sessions for Beggars Banquet -
that´s also when the basic track for Marianne´s Sister Morphine was recorded, with the following line-up:
Mick Jagger - acoustic guitar, production
Ry Cooder - slide guitar
Jack Nitszche - piano, organ, arrangement
Bill Wyman - bass
Charlie Watts - drums
[aeppli.ch]

Great version by Marianne, too!

...and Ry, Jack and Charlie plays on Something Better, as well



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-05 15:17 by rootsman.

just got a NEW sealed copy in pittsburgh for $8.00

sealed copy of what album...?

How long has it been since Ry Cooder mentioned anything about the Stones? just asking...seems that he stated his case and left it and moved on..

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rollmops
If the song "Honky Tonk Woman" has to do with somebody else than the Stones, it's got to be Hank Williams. Hank wrote "Honky Tonk Blues" in 1952 and it was pretty much the inspirational model for HTW. The glimmer Twins "stole it well" from Hank more than Ry.
Rock and roll,
Mops

The only similarity between Hank's "Honky Tonk Blues" and the Stones "Honky Tonk Women" is the use of "Honky Tonk" in the title and lyrics. To say the Stones stole the song on that basis is an extremely long stretch.

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ChrisM

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rollmops
If the song "Honky Tonk Woman" has to do with somebody else than the Stones, it's got to be Hank Williams. Hank wrote "Honky Tonk Blues" in 1952 and it was pretty much the inspirational model for HTW. The glimmer Twins "stole it well" from Hank more than Ry.
Rock and roll,
Mops

The only similarity between Hank's "Honky Tonk Blues" and the Stones "Honky Tonk Women" is the use of "Honky Tonk" in the title and lyrics. To say the Stones stole the song on that basis is an extremely long stretch.

my bumper sticker that says "honk if you're horny" is loosely based on the the stones song, and of course, by extension, on hank's fine tune....

[[sealed copy of what album...?]]

...sorry, "jamming with..."
i have been needing this on CD forever, but not wanting to pay ebay prices.
i think $8 is OK for a disc i'll never listen to

...well maybe once or twice, i'm digging it