Sorry if this has been covered before. I knew that Bill made his own bass, modifying (I believe) a Dallas Tuxedo. However, I was quite surprised to learn it was a fretless. His playing on the records and live does not sound like a fretless. Does anyone have any detailed info about this or about what pickups, etc. were on this bass? Much appreciated, fellow musicians.

here's the "great thread index", where you'll find the Ratbag Boogie: [www.iorr.org]
here's the Ratbag Boogie Guitar (Etc) Thread Index, where you'll find the thread on Bill's basses: [www.iorr.org]
and here's the thread on Bill's basses: [www.iorr.org] (that's page 2, where there are closeups of Bill's homemade fretless job)

you're welcome

very interesting!!

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"

Bill's Bass Sound is Medium-Fat...Darryl's is Very Fat..

Darryl's bass sound isn't very fat...

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DandelionPowderman
Darryl's bass sound isn't very fat...

Who's fatter?

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71Tele
Sorry if this has been covered before. I knew that Bill made his own bass, modifying (I believe) a Dallas Tuxedo. However, I was quite surprised to learn it was a fretless. His playing on the records and live does not sound like a fretless. Does anyone have any detailed info about this or about what pickups, etc. were on this bass? Much appreciated, fellow musicians.

what does a fretless bass sound like ?

It doesn't sound like fretless live because we don't have any recordings of him playing it live, and he didn't use it that often in studio.

He must have used it for IBC demos and Come On/I Want To Be Loved, obviously there will be others. Sounds like he used it on Gomper, Dear Doctor. You can see and hear him use it briefly in the film One Plus One, you get a good example of what it sounds like when he plays a bit on his own and he's asked to turn the amp down.

Also Bill, thankfully, didn't play lot of what became fretless bass cliches, he also had benefit of having markers where the frets used to be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-28 15:49 by His Majesty.

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with sssoul
here's the "great thread index", where you'll find the Ratbag Boogie: [www.iorr.org]
here's the Ratbag Boogie Guitar (Etc) Thread Index, where you'll find the thread on Bill's basses: [www.iorr.org]
and here's the thread on Bill's basses: [www.iorr.org] (that's page 2, where there are closeups of Bill's homemade fretless job)

you're welcome

And thanks!

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The Greek

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71Tele
Sorry if this has been covered before. I knew that Bill made his own bass, modifying (I believe) a Dallas Tuxedo. However, I was quite surprised to learn it was a fretless. His playing on the records and live does not sound like a fretless. Does anyone have any detailed info about this or about what pickups, etc. were on this bass? Much appreciated, fellow musicians.

what does a fretless bass sound like ?

Quite different because you can hear the microtones between the notes, especially on slide-ups and downs. Think about jazz stand-up bass.

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The Greek

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71Tele
Sorry if this has been covered before. I knew that Bill made his own bass, modifying (I believe) a Dallas Tuxedo. However, I was quite surprised to learn it was a fretless. His playing on the records and live does not sound like a fretless. Does anyone have any detailed info about this or about what pickups, etc. were on this bass? Much appreciated, fellow musicians.

what does a fretless bass sound like ?

In my experience (24 Years as a pro bass player) a fretless bass will generally sound very much like a fretted bass in all but a few applications. Knowing what to listen for, you can sometimes get some clues that the player is playing fretless but even I have a hard time & I know what I'm listening for...

Examples: When a player slides between notes (from one fret to another) on a fretted bass the notes change from one to the next like they would if you slid up a piano and could actually hit the black & white notes in sequence. On a fretless bass, it sounds like a slide on either a violin or what you here on a slide guitar.

Another time you can hear the difference between a fretted bass and a fretless is when the player is doing a lot of slapping and popping. Especially on the "pops" as that sound is created by lifting the string away from the fret board and allowing it to bounce off the frets when it hits the neck. The tone produced is significantly different when it bounces off of frets rather than off of a fretless fret board. Until the Pedulla company (they were one of the first anyway), started experimenting with harder woods and epoxy, many slap bass players didn't like to use fretless basses as the standard rosewood and maple fret boards just weren't hard enough to give the percussive sound desired.

Another way to here the difference is in the sustain/decay of the notes being played. With advances in technology though, this is becoming less reliable. Generally, a fretless bass will have less sustain and a quicker decay of the note because the fret board isn't as hard as a metal fret. Also, because the string is actually making much more contact with the fret board as opposed to at just a single point on the fret, the flesh and fret board can actually cause a slight dampening of the string. This opposed to a player who plays a fretted bass, then the fret has become the end of the string at one exact point as opposed to a wider contact point on the fret board. As the fret boards of the fretless basses are becoming better and better, this is becoming less and less noticeable.

All in all, with the advances in the technologies involved in building the bases and processing the sound (effects, etc.) it's getting harder and harder to tell the difference in tones between a fretted and fretless bass. Unless the player just gives it away by doing a lot of sliding between notes, a good producer/engineer/tech can make either sound like the other.

How much can they sound alike? The first time I ever played a fretless was at a jam session back in high school. I hadn’t brought my bass and was told "just play my brother's. He won't mind." I was into the second song when the brother walked into the room and at the end of the song said, "So what do you think of the fretless?" I think I broke his spirit when I said, "Oh, it's fretless? How cool!" And immediately started sliding all over the neck. Because it was a lined fretless and I don't rely a whole lot on the frets to get my fingers in the right place, I didn't notice that it was fretless in the two songs I played. My ears just heard round wound strings through single coil pickups, just like on my bass. Because my fingers sit on top of the strings, I didn’t miss the feeling of the frets as I don’t feel them anyway.

Peace,

Mr DJA

Nice post, dja. I currently have a Hofner Beatle Bass, a Fender Mustang Bass, and a Fender VI. I am getting one of the new mid-range Hofner Club basses to convert into a fretless (I wouldn't do that to a vintage one!). These have a sustain block in the body, unlike the original Hofners. If you ever want to hear great fretless technique on a pop/rock record, get "Cosi Fan Tutti Frutti" by Squeeze. I believe it is Keith Wilkinson playing it. Great fretless.

I am primarily a guitar player, so I need the markings on the neck, unfortunately.

Bill slides up and down the neck of his fretless on I'm A King Bee

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WeLoveYou
Bill slides up and down the neck of his fretless on I'm A King Bee

...and that great descending run on 19th Nervous Breakdown?

...and the sliding up and down bass at the end of Paint It Black

...starting to miss Bill's bass playing in the Stones.

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71Tele
Nice post, dja. I currently have a Hofner Beatle Bass, a Fender Mustang Bass, and a Fender VI. I am getting one of the new mid-range Hofner Club basses to convert into a fretless (I wouldn't do that to a vintage one!). These have a sustain block in the body, unlike the original Hofners. If you ever want to hear great fretless technique on a pop/rock record, get "Cosi Fan Tutti Frutti" by Squeeze. I believe it is Keith Wilkinson playing it. Great fretless.

I am primarily a guitar player, so I need the markings on the neck, unfortunately.

Thanks Tele... I'll look for the Squeeze tune as I'm a big fan of tasteful playing on a fretless electric. I enjoyed some of the stuff that Pino Pallidino did behind Paul Young in the late 80's as well. If I remember correctly. Roger Hodgson had some cool stuff on his first solo album as well. On the opposite end, I suffered through a Bad Co. concert in the early 90's and because the bass player DIDN'T play fretless, it really killed me on some tunes.

Also, even though I'm primarily a bass player, I'm really glad that my fretless has lines on it! Good to have targets when you want them! Funny thing is (you'll have to let me know how your conversion turns out) because my fretless is a conversion from fretted, some of the "lines" are much wider than others. This is caused when some of the frets sit farther into the fret board they leave a wider indentation. Thus, the "filler" material doesn't just have to fill the groove that the fret is pounded into but also the part of the fret board that the fret itself damaged.

Another thing to note it that you'll probably find that the lines that are left on your bass after the frets are removed will most likely NOT line up with where the notes actually are. Especially in the upper octave of the neck. This is because the bass was set up to be intonated correctly with a fret that is sitting above the actual fret board. As a result, you may find that you have to play "above" the fret line (closer to the pick-up) to actually hear the note correctly intonated. My bass is off so far that if I want to play the high E on the G string (21st fret and formerly the highest fret on the bass) I actually have to play right at the end the neck - probably close to 3/16" off of the marked spot.

On a side note: Did you notice what I DIDN'T do in either my original post or this one? All for you man! Hope all is well for you & yourss!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Hi mr_dja, check out fretless bass player Dill Katz. His playing on Barbara Thompson's "Paraphernalia" album (1979) is fantastic

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mr_dja

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71Tele
Nice post, dja. I currently have a Hofner Beatle Bass, a Fender Mustang Bass, and a Fender VI. I am getting one of the new mid-range Hofner Club basses to convert into a fretless (I wouldn't do that to a vintage one!). These have a sustain block in the body, unlike the original Hofners. If you ever want to hear great fretless technique on a pop/rock record, get "Cosi Fan Tutti Frutti" by Squeeze. I believe it is Keith Wilkinson playing it. Great fretless.

I am primarily a guitar player, so I need the markings on the neck, unfortunately.

Thanks Tele... I'll look for the Squeeze tune as I'm a big fan of tasteful playing on a fretless electric. I enjoyed some of the stuff that Pino Pallidino did behind Paul Young in the late 80's as well. If I remember correctly. Roger Hodgson had some cool stuff on his first solo album as well. On the opposite end, I suffered through a Bad Co. concert in the early 90's and because the bass player DIDN'T play fretless, it really killed me on some tunes.

Also, even though I'm primarily a bass player, I'm really glad that my fretless has lines on it! Good to have targets when you want them! Funny thing is (you'll have to let me know how your conversion turns out) because my fretless is a conversion from fretted, some of the "lines" are much wider than others. This is caused when some of the frets sit farther into the fret board they leave a wider indentation. Thus, the "filler" material doesn't just have to fill the groove that the fret is pounded into but also the part of the fret board that the fret itself damaged.

Another thing to note it that you'll probably find that the lines that are left on your bass after the frets are removed will most likely NOT line up with where the notes actually are. Especially in the upper octave of the neck. This is because the bass was set up to be intonated correctly with a fret that is sitting above the actual fret board. As a result, you may find that you have to play "above" the fret line (closer to the pick-up) to actually hear the note correctly intonated. My bass is off so far that if I want to play the high E on the G string (21st fret and formerly the highest fret on the bass) I actually have to play right at the end the neck - probably close to 3/16" off of the marked spot.

On a side note: Did you notice what I DIDN'T do in either my original post or this one? All for you man! Hope all is well for you & yourss!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Thanks for the tips! Very practical.

But what did you mean about noticing what you DIDN'T do? (Call me "Dude"? LOL). It's still early here. Maybe I'm not awake enough yet.

Tele:

Out of respect regarding our conversation earlier this year I never once put the word guitar after the word bass. Easier to type for me! You must not have noticed as I got it right to your eyes! Maybe next time I'll put it in just to see if you're paying attention! Shot in your honor! It's almost noon here in TN so I shouldn't get in to much trouble for thinking of drinking this early on a holiday weekend!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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mr_dja
Tele:

Out of respect regarding our conversation earlier this year I never once put the word guitar after the word bass. Easier to type for me! You must not have noticed as I got it right to your eyes! Maybe next time I'll put it in just to see if you're paying attention! Shot in your honor! It's almost noon here in TN so I shouldn't get in to much trouble for thinking of drinking this early on a holiday weekend!

Peace,
Mr DJA

That's right! I should have known. Hey, call it a bass rhinoceros for all I care. I wouldn't have started that argument again, believe me. It's all good. Really appreciate your knowledge and tips. I'll let you know how the conversion goes. Thanks.

thank you to all for a tutoral on all fretless bass matters

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71Tele

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WeLoveYou
Bill slides up and down the neck of his fretless on I'm A King Bee

...and that great descending run on 19th Nervous Breakdown?

That descending run doesn't sound like fretless though. IMO.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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71Tele

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WeLoveYou
Bill slides up and down the neck of his fretless on I'm A King Bee

...and that great descending run on 19th Nervous Breakdown?

That descending run doesn't sound like fretless though. IMO.

You might be right...

Sounds to me it was used on It's All Over Now As Well. Great Sound! Some of Bill's best playing there!

"Well my heavy throbbers itchin' just to lay a solid rhythm down"

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71Tele

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Palace Revolution 2000

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71Tele

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WeLoveYou
Bill slides up and down the neck of his fretless on I'm A King Bee

...and that great descending run on 19th Nervous Breakdown?

That descending run doesn't sound like fretless though. IMO.

You might be right...

I've been thinking about 19th Nervous Breakdown all day and can't wait to get home to see if I can tell if it's fretless or not. As I play it in my head, I think we may have a hard time determining for sure either way...

As I remember it, it's a slide down a single string with very quick pick attacks (16th notes maybe?). As a result, there's not much time between each pick attack to listen for the semi-tones that would indicate a fretless bass.

What may give us some insight is if we DON'T hear any fret buzz or muted notes as he slides down the neck. The odds of all of those pick attacks coming exactly when his finger was over a fret is going to be slim to none. On a fretted bass, you'd assume that at least one note in one of those "dive-bombs" ought to be either muted or have produced some fret noise.

It'll be fun to check anyway!

Peace
Mr DJA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-28 23:53 by mr_dja.

I thought Bill said he used his homemade bass very much in the studio; didn't he say that he used it on almost every album session?

Just thought of something: wouldn't it be funny to see a pic of Keith or someone with Bill's Bass? It's one of those instruments that works only on the owner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-28 23:45 by Palace Revolution 2000.

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His Majesty
It doesn't sound like fretless live because we don't have any recordings of him playing it live, and he didn't use it that often in studio.

Are you sure? I have the impression that he literally used it on every session the Stones have done up to early 80's except the '65 / '67 sessions where he used the Framus and VOX basses a lot. But on most pics from '68 to the early '80's he is using that homemade bass. I think most of SF, Exile, GHS and IORR is that bass, and from '75 on he also started using the Ampeg London Bass and from '78 on the Travis Bean, but still a large part is that homemade bass.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
It doesn't sound like fretless live because we don't have any recordings of him playing it live, and he didn't use it that often in studio.

Are you sure? I have the impression that he literally used it on every session the Stones have done up to early 80's except the '65 / '67 sessions where he used the Framus and VOX basses a lot. But on most pics from '68 to the early '80's he is using that homemade bass. I think most of SF, Exile, GHS and IORR is that bass, and from '75 on he also started using the Ampeg London Bass and from '78 on the Travis Bean, but still a large part is that homemade bass.

Mathijs

Focusing on the period I lik he's shown using various basses, he may have took it to every session, but the majority of sounds of various tracks suggests he didn't use it that often during 1964 - 1970.

Most pics from 1963 I Wanna be Your Man - Aftermath sessions shows the Framus basses with wyman bass appearing during Aftermath, Btb's wyman bass(precision for keith), same again for TSMR. Pics from 1968 - 1970 show Bill using modified dallas tuxedo, wyman bass, Shaftesbury, vox astro and fender mustang. Add in the fact Keith started to play some basslines circa 1966 the dallas tuxedo's actual use can't have been that much.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-29 12:31 by His Majesty.